So I was out tonight and not too long after I arrived at the bar, I stepped away from my friend to approach three girls standing nearby - or more accurately, I approached one cute girl who was with two unattractive friends. The friends were probably in the three to four range and the one I was interested in was somewhere near an eight. I didn't take this disparity into account when I approached, and paid too much attention to the one who was attractive, causing the other two to get jealous and cock block me, as described in number two in the previous post. Clearly I was just another guy hitting on their hot friend, like every other time they go out together. They didn't like this so they cut me out of the conversation by turning their friend away from me and talking to her over what I was trying to say, ignoring me. This pissed me off to no end, since it was clearly against the cute girl's will, but I can tell when it's a case of "friends first," so I sucked up my pride and went back to my friend.
Anyway, the incident made me realize that I'd forgotten one of the most important things girls need to do to make themselves approachable, which is:
12. Don't hang out with girls that are significantly hotter than you
Obviously every guy has different taste, so you can be liberal in deciding whether or not they are "hotter than you," but there are some obvious combinations to avoid - like hanging out with an eight when you are a three or four. The rule can also be extended to choosing a place to go out: don't go to places where everyone is hot if you are decidedly not in that league. It would be like a short dude hanging out in a bar full of guys over 6'4". But if you are standing next to a friend that is more than three points hotter than you, don't expect to get hit on by anyone other than a wing man.
... Your such a d*ck, even if you dont let my comment post. My friends numbers in your book are all over the place but I would hate it if they avoided me for supposedly being a higher scale... Some guys do go for personality, and not everyone goes out TO get hit on... You must be one of those blue collar douches... I worked with them for a while and none stood a chance... either way you are some form of Shallow... Ugh !
ReplyDeletetypical lady in denial response.
DeleteThen don't take the advise. Relax, girl. damn.
DeleteAndrew might well be a jerk,but no more so than the 3-4 types using an 8 as bait.
DeleteHate to admit it.. but so true
DeletePretending that you don't go to a bar and initially see guys "objectively" is denial. A guy doesn't care about "personality" if the way the girl presents herself is unattractive. Andrew isn't classifying any named girl or specific look as a 3 or 4. He's saying you shouldn't go out with friends who are significantly hotter than you if you want to get noticed. It's a harsh truth but somebody has to say it.
DeleteI am not 100% sure if you are right here. You must remember that there are other reasons girlfriends can dislike you other than jealousy. And personally - if I was out with friends and some guy approached me, and my friends tried to pull me away, I would find a way to keep in touch with him if I really liked him. It's not as if she either walks away without a good-bye or she goes home with you and ditches them. She could give you her number and if you showed clear interest, she would probably have done something if she really liked you. I agree there are girls who are really jealous and all, but you cannot always make that assumption.
ReplyDeleteAnd the attractiveness thing is difficult. I have many friends whom are many "points" below me and we still go out together without them acting jealous or difficult. All girls worry that their friend with big boobs will be approached first, but to refuse to go out with your best friend for that reason just end up being stupid.
You guys are missing the point of the story, which is to point out WHY that the two girls that cock blocked me were frustrated to begin with. They never got approached because they were hanging out with a girl that was much hotter than them. If you do that, guys will hit on her, not you.
ReplyDeletei covered this before i'll and i'll post link. but long story short, when girls are out the entire group is a singualr entity and ALL must be a part of the conversatio. as a matter of ferct, the best think you could do is talk to the other 2 girls more than "hottie". they ALL know you want the 7. if you care to read it it's here.
ReplyDeletehttp://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/lessons-learned-from-working-with-a-beautiful-woman/
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ReplyDeleteI'll be honest-when I went out tonight I didn't think your advice would work. But holy hell, I went out with my one girlfriend who's not very pretty, danced away from my guy friend and danced Bc I'm a good dancer. I got hit on by at least 8 guys. Plus a coffee date for tomorrow. HAHA I love your blog, keep on shattering my female delusions :)
ReplyDeleteyou are so harsh. i love it. girls can be really silly about guys (i know, because i am one) and i hate telling my friends "Oh, i bet he will call, he probably jst forgot, or is busy".... when i know he didn't call because he doesn't like her, or only wants to sleep with her and knows she won't be down for that...
ReplyDeleteHypothetical question: say one of those unattractive girls who cockblocked you goes to a bar with a less attractive friend (about a 2 or so..). She gets hit on by a guy, who's even a bit above her league, and they end up dating. The hot girl she used to go out with is still a good friend of hers. Should she feel hesitant about introducing him to her? Perhaps not post facebook pictures of them together?
ReplyDeleteAnd another scenario: if you're an 8,5 and has a friend who's about a 9,5, should I still pay attention? What if we look sort of similar - guys who fancy me are likely to fancy her. Should I preferably go out with someone else?
A lot of factors come into play in the first scenario you described. IIf the guy doesn't think he could date the hotter of the two girls, then introducing them won't be a big deal. He will be happy with what he has. If the guy DOES think he could be with the hotter girl, hiding her probably won't help too much, since he is bound to meet her eventually, or try to fulfill his ambitions with other women (you can't hide ALL hot women from him).
ReplyDeleteWhat you are trying to avoid by keeping hotter girls out of the picture is the contrast that is created by juxtaposing yourself with a "better" option. You want to avoid reminders of the fact that he has a less beautiful woman. You might be an 8 and he might be willing to date you because you have a personality that is miles better than all of the 10s he has ever met. But you don't want to remind him that he was forced to make a compromise. It would be like your intelligent and funny boyfriend being stood next to Brad Pitt or something; even if you know that you "click" with him better than you would with Brad Pitt, you don't want to be reminded that you weren't able to meet a guy as successful and good looking as Brad Pitt, that you ALSO "click" with.
In your second scenario, I think you shouldn't worry too much. Save your friendship. Even though your girlfriend might get a little more attention than you, or distract some guys, you will still have plenty of options. That being said, I don't know how strong the friendship is. If this hotter girl were a mere acquaintence, I might change my adice and say ditch her!
It might seem like a luxury problem...but Ii you're attractive (7.5+), you will be victim of jealousy from other girls, on a regular basis. I usually get a lot of attention when I go out. I was out with a new friend a while ago and 100% of the approaches we got were directed towards me. She later commented jokingly that she felt like the third wheel. She doesn't really initiate going out together anymore. My best friend once said that she felt stupid being out with me, because I got all the attention (that was due to her insecurity, she's actually pretty, but the result is the same - she is reluctant to go out with me).
ReplyDeleteI have a few attractive friends to go out with, but it is annoying that some exclude themselves as they don't want to meet guys with me and furthermore (as you say), that they avoid the places where I like to go out, as there are too many models there, selective men etc.
If a woman is supposed to be approachable, she needs to be out with girls she has fun with. If I choose a stunning girl I don't have much in common with, we can easily end up just posing together, which doesn't really attract men (not the right ones, anyway). So as you see there are several things we need to take into account :) I wonder if guys have noticed that "attractive girls stick together"?
This isn't really accurate. I have a few really hot friends, like 9s and 10s (at least from a bi female perspective) but they never get the attention - I do. It occurs to me that because I don't participate in drunken hookup culture that type of guy might view getting me to sleep with him is a challenge, but this just doesn't seem plausible to me.
ReplyDeleteIt seems bizarre to me because if either of these friends of mine were bi i'd be trying to hook up with them myself ;) but they aren't.
It seems especially weird because at the time I was publicly known to be in a fairly serious relationship, but the guy hits on me not my friend who's single and at least 2.5 points hotter than me? No wonder guys make no sense to women. I do have a rep for being very low maintenance, but I also have a rep for never cheating... so confusing.
I am a 10 and was cut off by my friend because in her words when we go out I should 'dog it down'.
ReplyDeleteThis one is kind of hard. Im not going to rate my looks because I would obviously be biased but I have been told by numerous people, strangers and acquaintances, males and females, that I am good looking, pretty, even gorgeous ect.
ReplyDeleteI have a good friend that I go out with that makes comments about me getting a lot of attention and in one instance she actually counted how many times I was approached in a 2 hour period (apparently 16). I used to laugh stuff like that off as her being silly, but one night on our way back home she made a comment to a male friend of ours that guys will ignore her to talk to me. Thats not always true but it really bothers me that she feels this way.
I dont plan on cutting her off or not going out with her because she is my friend, and we enjoy doing the same things when we go out and we have lots of fun. Plus its a lame reason to limit the time you spend with a good person. But its annoying that she feels this way when she should 1. be looking for guys she is interested in 2. focusing on the guys that are paying attention to her. We look completely opposite of each other so even if I am "better looking" the guys that are into her may not be into me and visa versa.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI am curious to know what happens when the group you go out with are less than two points hotter than you. (For example, if I am a 7 and the girls in my group are ranging of 3-5).
I agree with your post. It makes sense and I believe it.I've experienced it. But I am always hesitant to actually go out with friends who may be been seen as lower on point scale than myself when I want to meet guys. Even though the girl who is a higher number will stand out, don't friends/who your associated with count for something? Won't some guys see a group of 4's, 5's, and 6's at won't it sometimes pull the one outlier in the group down a point just by association?
A buddy and I sometimes discuss how being in an attractive group will up our number (so as long as the group and myself doesnt vary too significantly). I guess it's our "rule of association".
Do guys ever associate this way as well? Am I still ok going out with my significantly less attractive friends?
At what point does everyone in the group start to blend together, is it when the points are close and not significantly far enough apart?
I like this question.
DeleteYou are right that it works both ways occasionally. The difference is whether or not the guy is hitting on you alone or with his friends. If you are in a group of three girls and only one is hot, a group of three guys won't approach you because none will want to "jump on the grenade." This happened to me just the other night - my friend and I both wanted to hit on a cute girl but she had an ugly friend and we both knew one of us would have to take the hit, so we let them both go rather than suffer through that and lead the ugly girl on.
But if a guy is alone or can break away from his group, the contrast between you and your friends will work in your favor.
It's really funny that you think your friends are in the 3-5 range. Bet they don't know that you feel that way.
Deletewell, most of my female friends are NOT great looking or in good shape... and I sometimes tell them so... its getting embrassing to hang out with out of shape/ outdately dressed girls all the time...
DeleteWhy the heck do men feel like they need to "jump on the grenade" for their friends? Just talk to the cute girl. Don't be rude to the grenade and ignore her but also don't flirt with her.
DeleteHi, Andrew thanks for your response. "The difference is whether or not he is hitting on you alone or with his friends" is something I would not have noticed or considered. haha Nice to hear your personal story in regards to this question.I've been wondering about it for a while but never asked a males opinion.
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your candid responses, stories, and insights. Thanks for your blog posts on real issues in the dating world. I find many posts to be very relatable.
@anonymous 7:28. I think the numbers I give are relative to my own opinion. Who knows if I'm a 7 and who knows if several of my friends are 3-6's. My point to using these numbers is in regards to number desparity amoung a group. I would not pretend to believe, as one man will consider me attractive, while another won't--that my own same sexed friends may or may not also be rating me in some way, or think of my attractiveness in the group. I had been curious about this question for a while.
Hi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteVery interesting blog. This is my first time here. I have a quick question... I have many attractive friends, and think I am fairly attractive, but we are all very different. For example, one friend is tall, thin, blonde, typical southern beauty, a second is 10 years older but attractive, tiny, and very fit; I am tall, brunette, curvy but fit (although I don't look like a gym rat, I do work out regularly) and have a pretty face. So we are all VERY different. Wouldn't the scale for the three of us vary depending on who was watching? And wouldn't a man who likes a tall, thin, non-athletic blonde not be attracted to me or the other friend anyway?
I've always thought it safe to go out with differing but attractive friends. Kind of like Giselle and Salma Hayek. Both are gorgeous but very different. Would the same man really be attracted to both completely different women?
I'm not Andrew, but, I think that yes, going out with similarly attractive women with different appearances is a good thing as well.
DeleteAnd as mentioned in one of the blog posts, all guys have different taste. The "type" of girls a guy likes (blonde, brunette, light skintone, tanned skintone, tall, tiny, etc etc) is relevant for the rating they would give a girl, and therefore you might be a 7 to one guy, and a 9 to another. As such, going out with friends who have a very different appearances is a good thing, as you will often end up being approached by different guys (who have different tastes) and although I doubt you would be jealous, there is no need to be when a guy approaches one of your friends, because it is justifiable as the guy just having a different taste.
Personally, I've had the best times with girls who are in my opinion even more attractive than me, but have a completely different appearance; definitely don't give that up.
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Regarding going out with friends of various "grades." I actually think it acts as a filter. Here's why:
ReplyDelete-I have a hot friend who is dumb as rocks. I am close to her in appearance points (granted I am much more fit), however I can't pull off her confidence and her hair/makeup is 10+. She pulls guys left and right. HOWEVER, the ones that aren't morons (or looking to simply get laid) tend to drift over to me once the conversation starts.
-For a few of my lower scaling friends, when a guy does hit on them it seems to be of more genuine interest. Plus, these friends of mine seem to be good at talking to a circle of guys and this has led to the hottie of the group talking to me.
-If a dude doesn't want to talk to my friends (even the ugly but personable ones) then he probably just wants to get laid.
-If I reject a guy, he has my lower scaling friends to try with. Plus, it boosts their confidence. Win, win.
Who talks about their friends like this?
DeleteI know. I would never talk that way about my friends. They are all beautiful as far as I'm concerned. I'm not trying to say that I never compete with other women. I just don't compete with my friends. If a guy approaches me and ignores my friends totally, then he's ejected from the conversation. If my friends want to go somewhere else, then I'm off, no matter how attractive I find the man. And if one of my friends has feelings for a guy, he is not on my radar. I'm in no way going to put one attractive man between me and my friends.
DeleteAnd I don't believe what Anon. above says even reflects reality. You don't have to be hot to attract morons who only want to get laid. The way to attract guys like that is all to do with your presence, and whether you seem like the kind of girl who can't say no or is somehow vulnerable to a sexual advance. Of course, if you're a strong enough woman you can turn that on its head and use the guy to get off without getting attached. There are men I have had sex with and felt nothing afterwards.
But it isn't only about vulnerability. In general women encounter more men that are unsuitable for them, than men who are a good match. That's just the law of averages. And you have to be a bit careful because there is a risk associated with what sort of attention you accept. You should by no means accept all attention because to some people, you'd begin to look unattractive by association with particular men.
...... Or maybe her friends were trying to clear a path for a guy that she wanted to talk to who's hotter than you. LOL. JUST JOKING !!! But I do understand your point. Its also mindful to go out with friends who represent who you are. Andrew, would you have still approached the cutie if the girls she was with were loud and skanky? It does sound shallow, but ladies you should check the women you hang with even if they are your friends. What you put out is what you attract. I was in a situation in which I stopped going out with my old friends because the places they like to frequent didnt have the type of men I wanted.... and I didnt get any approachers. But when we went to the places I wanted, I could feel that men were checking me out but wouldnt approach because of them. They didnt fit in at all. But also dont be afraid to break away and walk around or sit at the bar alone for a few minutes. Maybe all HE needs is a chance to get you by yourself to approach you.
ReplyDeleteAndrew sounds like a jerk.
ReplyDeleteWow. Men really are jerks. You would lead the ugly girl on? One of your friends would "take the bait and lead the ugly girl on?"
ReplyDeleteThat's awful! See, women don't think this way. Us women don't normally do something like that.
It's like we women are objects and you can just toy with our feelings. Wow. Your awful.
Seriously, this is why women think men are jerks. With men looks come first. Us women aren't a big on looks.
ReplyDeleteOkay I get it. Generally speaking this idea is just mean. BUT the point Im taking from them is that IF you want to become more approachable, it would help to get out more and have some fun without your friends that tend to get more attention than you do.
ReplyDeleteI am an attractive woman. But I am not really the glamorous type. But I have been out alone and gotten lots of attention. But the moment I am out with my friends that have more "bait" i.e. Longer hair, sexier clothes, etc, THEY get the attention first and guys notice me less. It's like they are so into checking out the friend that they don't notice the pretty by someone plain woman with her. I would usually win in that situation if some guys bought us drinks and started talking to us or something. THEN I notice that moment when one will think - ok she is pretty. I never noticed.
Just to keep it real, I get what he is saying. You can make your choice depending on what your goal is. If you want to get noticed more....get it done.
I cant believe this post! Only because I totally agree and no one has wrote an article, blogged or had a conversation about it. I consider myself to be about 9. I have a friend who guys would consider about a 3. She cock blocks the guys who try to talk to me whenever we go out together. It is an almost "Hey guy look at me, talk to me" desperate attitude and complains about all the guys who are staring at me, but don't notice her. I refuse to hang out with her now because of her attitude.
ReplyDeleteSo If I can't go out with large groups of women or go out with guys because both impede my chances at meeting men…. I'm supposed to hang out alone at some random bar? That sounds…not fun at all.
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteVery interesting thoughts. I found your blog today and I've read like, at least 10 articles. This one interests me A LOT.
All of my friends are very attractive (7+). I'm probably an 8 - 10, depending on your taste. I know I need to work on my approachability. I'm going to try some of the things you suggested in your article about that, but they seem so subtle, I'm not sure that they will work. In the past, I've been more smiley and friendly and then I get TOO MUCH attention... plus it feels really fake and I don't get what I want anyway. I just end up having to rebuff a lot of men I don't want to date.
My question is, my closest girlfriend gets hit on ALL THE TIME. We'll be out, usually in a group of 3 - 5, and she gets the lions share of attention. She's certainly a 9 or 10. I don't think anyone would rate her an 8. In a group dynamic like that, why does she stand out? That she's hotter or not is a matter of taste.
I am friendly once the approach is made and I'm never ever mean (unless the guy is rude or lecherous), but I know my facial features aren't "cute" and my resting face isn't smiley (I have very high cheekbones and cat eyes), and while I know I'm attractive and am constantly given affirmation of that and that I'll end up with some rich guy (I actually don't care about that, but people say that to me)... it does make me feel lesser than when my friend gets all the attention.
Another friend (the blonde bombshell of the group) actually makes open comments about all the attention our friend gets, she is actually probably even LESS approachable than I am in appearance and in fact is quite uptight personality-wise, LOL.
I'm not going to stop hanging out with my approachable friend, she's great and she's my favourite. I just need to learn her game!!! Help me out :)
What is she doing that I need to do? Picture a group of 3 or 4 hot girls. There is no grenade. Why do you choose one to talk to first or exclusively and not the others?
Thanks.
Andrew, what if my hot friends are married? Also, my guy friends have said that a girl raises her profile by being seen with other hot people, be they male or female; so I've always preferred to hang out w women and men that are a little better looking than me (I'm a 7.5/8, they're 9/10). Is that totally untrue?
ReplyDeleteI kinda agree with you on this, Andrew. I'm petite, thin with (what I was told) a very pretty face so even with a tall girl or a girl even shorter than me, I would still be the one getting approached even though I'm 5 to 8 years older than them. I would have to say I'm a 9 or 9.5. But the one thing that I wouldn't admit to my girlfriends is that I would never ever hang out with a girl who is even as equally as attractive as me. Not to sound cocky, but this is my game. The one time I hanged out with a girl who is a 9.5/10, I had to wear a mini skirt and I don't wear a mini skirt! I'm used to being hit on because of my face alone but with her, it kinda crushed my ego..
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ReplyDelete