Time and time again I see or hear about girls who allow a guy to date them for three or four years in their twenties without proposing. This blows my mind. I understand that these girls are holding out in the hope of eventually getting a proposal, but they don't give enough consideration to the possibility that they'll be strung along for another two or three years, only to have him decide that he wants someone else - or worse yet, someone younger. Combine this with a girl's reduced odds of finding someone (let alone someone better) once she begins to age and things begin to fall into perspective; it seems crazy to consider dating someone for more than a year without a very strong confidence about the direction in which the relationship is heading.
If the same graph showed the value of a house you owned over time, there is no way in hell you'd be renting it out for long periods of time between 20 and 30 years, when it's value is highest. You would either leave it vacant during that time for prospective buyers, or at most, only agree to month-to-month leases so that it would be available to sell when a buyer came along with a good price. You'd also be actively advertising the property, because you'd want to take advantage of its high value. I'll let you draw the analogy.
Don't give a guy your most eligible years with nothing to show for it. This is bullshit. If you ultimately want to get married and your current relationship isn't constantly growing stronger (i.e. approaching something permanent), then you need to start asking questions. And if you aren't getting satisfactory answers, it is time to look elsewhere. The clock is ticking.
Furthermore, your time is your responsibility - not his. For better or worse, men will not make commitments that aren't required of them. If he isn't taking things to the next level when you think it is appropriate, break up with him. You can do this nicely, and you should explain your reasoning clearly, but you should still break up with him. More easily said than done? Probably. But it is the best move nonetheless. If he really wants you, he will try to get you back; but if he doesn't, remember: during your most eligible years, you are better off being back on the market than tied up in a dead-end relationship.
I have been following your blog since the begining, (referred through Hooking Up Smart - another one of my favorite blogs) and as a woman in her 20's - find your insights very interesting!
ReplyDeleteGreat job with this article. I love the comparison you drew with owning your own home, I definitely will be passing this link along to my girlfriends!
www.playfullypolished.com
I agree with this in effect, but the trouble is that a woman's biggest investment in a relationship is not her time but her emotions. Breaking up with a guy after a year, if she cares about him and wants a future with him, is sort of like cutting off a limb. Her emotions are already invested at that point, which makes time a lot less important in comparison. By the time it's clear that guy won't commit it's already way too late to lock the barn door.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to prevent this situation is to be careful about which guys to date, and avoid the ones who seem obviously uninterested in a serious relationship, but there's simply no way to predict it with certainty.
Sometimes women have a built-in disgust factor for men who dither along without committing, which makes it easier to walk away, but in that case if the man comes running back he's going to be confronted with the fact that he missed his chance and won't be getting another one, with is what happened with a guy I dated for much longer than I should have.
But in general great post because it's something women need to be told.
There is a book called: Falling in love for all the right reasons by the founder of Eharmony. I think women should be trained like investors. Don't put your money (feelings) in a project (man) that doesn't have a future. Learning to reading red flags and identifying green lights should be a skill developed long before puberty, IMO.
DeleteThe reason most aren't getting married is because MEN are thinking like investors. WOMEN do not want commitment.
Delete* Commitment ala marriage means risking a mans savings, future earnings and future kids on the commitment OF WOMEN. Time and again this has shown to be a BAD investment. 70-80% of divorces are filed by women and studies show infidelity is the reason only ~6% of the time. Men get it - women want a sponsor for the "Holly Homemaker" phase of their life (3-7 years).
*Woman want the tradition of marriage but also want to abandon the tradition of Brides. They scoff at the idea of preserving their virginity for their husband. Quite the contrary, she'll most likely have a double digit partner count often slutting it up during her prime years then look to find some chump to marry her ass before the music stops. Ummm .....yeah.
Good luck ladies.
You do know that - statistically (in the US anyway), men get wealthier after a divorce? This being "ripped off by women" is a product of a few angry men on the internet. It's not a bad deal for men, most of them are perfectly happy not seeing much of their kids anyway. And you don't have to give birth to them either.
DeleteYeah I've never been to enthused with the whole monetary argument against marriage/divorce either. There are more important things to worry about.
DeleteAnonymous is at 8:00 AM is right.
DeleteI'm with 6:52. 8:00 AM is really right. 5:15PM is wrong. Women want to have their cake and eat it too. I love my son and she did everything to get him away from me out of spite. I have my son 50% and I had him 100% because she messed up too much and the courts didn't like that. I think we need to thank the current society that put women in a situation they can have a voice. I will say maybe a small percentage deserves to be heard. The rest are a bunch of self centered picky sluts. Why bringing a child to this world if the only thing he is going to see is how his mother break up his parents marriage and only married their father to get them to be "sponsor for the "Holly Homemaker" phase of their life ".
DeleteMen Please only date women 28 to 34, and stay with them at least 2 years before moving into anything serious. Once Women are over that age "they look to find some chump to marry her ass before the music stops. ". Quoting 8:00 above.
Would you consider it a dead-end relationship if the he is serious and committed, but just doesn't want to get married because "a piece of paper won't change anything"?
ReplyDeleteI am 25 and have been dating my current bf since I was 21. During those years, we've moved in together, have met each other's parents, etc. When I was 24, I did the whole "isn't it time to marry me now?" and he basically refused, saying that he's already committed to me and that getting married isn't going to change anything. I tried to break up with him at this point but we ended up back together because I realized that I'd rather be with him and then get dumped later, than not be with him at all.
Should I grow some balls and break up with him for good this time? There are so few quality guys interested in marriage these days since it's becoming outdated, that maybe I should be content with a committed LTR relationship.
In a sense your boyfriend is right - a marriage doesn't necessarily mean he is committed. I suspect that what really matters to you is that he will stick around when things get tough, or prettier girls come along - and a piece of paper is no guarantee of this.
DeleteBut a marriage is not just "a piece of paper." A marriage takes a lot of time, effort and money. All of these are tokens of his commitment. If he is willing to go through all of that, you at least have some measure of his seriousness. Of course plenty of guys marry girls and then divorce them later; but this happens less than girls getting dumped by boyfriends (i.e. guys who haven't made a lifetime promise).
Here is the other thing: when you remove all of the pomp and circumstance, a marriage is nothing more than two people promising to each other that they will stay together for life. Ceremonies or legal documents aren't required in order to do this. He can say "we're committed; we don't need a wedding," but has he looked you in the eye and explicitly vowed to stay with you for life? You could ask him to do this (and you would reciprocate), and even tell him that you want it to be witnessed, maybe by your and his parents, or a close friend of his.
If he refuses to do even this, then he clearly is avoiding marriage in order to keep his options open - not to avoid all the hassle of a wedding. In that case I think you should definitely break up with him for good. At 25 you have your best years to come and can probably find someone better, even if it hurts to pull away.
That advice is great and I really think all girls should read this.
DeleteAs you say, nobody is obligated to commit to anyone, but I really do hate it when men say marriage isn't necessary/won't change anything/weddings are to show off while they are actually avoiding commitment. High quality men do get married - they are just few and far in between. I think most people agree that marriage is preferable to make your commitment official and also is the best solution if you choose to have children. Most men want these things at some point. So I don't think it's a matter of most men 'finding marriage so outdated'. You really risk that he does in fact want these things, he'll just choose someone else in a few years time.
I know very high quality men (attractive, confident, wealthy) whom have gotten married in their late twenties - usually things are pretty standard. They meet the girl at school or through friends, get engaged and married rather quickly after that, she's pregnant after a year. It seems when they see something they want, they go for it.
Andrew - even though youth is attractive, do you think there is a "lower age limit" in terms of marriage material? Even if a girl is mature for her age, do you think guys may think "she's only 22, she'll probably want to travel and all that for a couple more years"?. Even if she doesn't seem like the partying kind and EVEN if she is personality-wise on his level (assuming he's not too old), will guys sometimes conclude that it's too soon? Women wait so long until marriage these days, at least in the bigger cities (35+), that I feel like I'm sometimes stereotyped as I'm in my early twenties.
Marriage is the vow to the lord jesus that these two people will stay together and commit to one another it has a spritual side to its meaning. Also, and most importantly, 2 people are not living in sin anymore. The reason why divorce rates are high is that people say they are christian or catholic but have they read the word of God and seen what it says? Are they prepared to meet their maker at a hour and time unknown to humanity? God is love and wants the best for us and nothing is impossible with him if we ask and believe. We do not have nothing to lose but all to gain the moment we put our trust in the lord and not be selfish and be consumed by our own worldly thoughts and ideas. The lord has abundant love and he knows our beginning to end and he Is waiting for acknowledgement. The bible says ask n ya shall receive. Confusion doesn't come from god but the enemy that is the prince of this world. Knowing gods word and declaring that jesus is lord has brought the holy spirit into my life and it has never remained the same since aas I experience his love, favor, mercy and divine intervention daily. God bless and good luck.
DeletePretty sure marriage existed before Christianity, and exists in other faiths...
DeleteThank you. This makes me happy. I'm turning 26 this year and just got my heart broken into pieces by a man who I thought was 'the one'. Clearly he is not and clearly I was wasting time in a dead end relationship.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of this post is right, but the slope is much harsher than the way you draw it. The peak is around 22 and by 30 it has already declined a bit.
ReplyDeleteThis is right. I would say the peak is 22-26 and then it goes down. By 27, you start showing some wrinkles and bags under the eyes. It's kind of the same for men and women.
Deletevery useful post ... iv been dating a guy since last summer and im wondering if i should bring up a talk of serious commitment, and how??
ReplyDeletehis job involves him traveling A LOT so we havent had a ton of face time. but we're in contact pretty much everyday otherwise. neither of us have much experience of being in a long-term relationship, im 22 and he's 27.
are there any sings you can look for also? i would love some help with this, thanks :)
I think you just need to start moving the relationship in the direction of something permanent. You can do this by asking him questions about more long-term things like where he'd like to live when he has a family, how many kids he wants, etc. You should be careful about being too direct when you ask them, since no guy wants to feel pressured into making a decision. But it gives you an opportunity to see how he reacts and where his mind is about those kinds of things.
DeleteThanks very much for the advice. Well we've started to discuss things like that and he's asked if I want to move into his place. Perhaps I'm just worrying over nothing ...!
DeleteHmmm. What about a guy who says that he'll never get married? Dump him right there? Or explore this a little further and see if you can live with that? Advice, please? Thank you!
ReplyDeleteMake sure you know what he really means by that. If he means he never wants to go through the whole wedding process with a formal ceremony, etc, then you might consider staying with him as long as he commits to you for life (assuming this is what you want).
DeleteBut if he means "I never want to commit to anyone for life because I want to keep my options open" (and you DO want someone to commit to you for life), then I think you should definitely dump him immediately.
See my response above from Jan 28, 2012 02:27 PM.
Loved this article! But it brings up a dreaded question for me. Any ideas how to meet guys during these eligible years? I am getting sick of the bar scene, it seems like I meet douche bag after douche bag. Ditto on guys at the gym. Also, online dating is not my thing. No judgments to anyone else! It is just not how I want to meet someone and it doesn't suit me personally.
ReplyDeleteWhere else should I be going or what should I be joining to meet guys? Thanks!
I wouldn't write off the bar scene entirely, but maybe choose more carefully which ones you go to. Aside from that, I'd suggest expanding your network of acquaintences - not friends, acquaintences. This is the easiest way to reach out to a larger number of people without investing too much time in dead ends.
DeleteIf you aren't already on there, get on Facebook. If a guy sees that you are friends with someone he knows, and he is attracted to you, you can be sure he will be asking your mutual friend about you and trying to meet you.
Could you please write a post on Facebook in general? I am not pro online dating but I am on Facebook (for friends more than guys). I am however skeptical to using it as a tool with men, simply because many men see FB not as a source of communication, but to drool at photos and a as a "fun zone" when at the office. The fact that he sent you a message doesn't mean he was thinking of you, rather that he found a photo where you look hot or that you popped up on his newsfeed (he wasn't thinking about you until then). Hell, he's probably even writing on other girls' walls.
DeleteThese days, friend requests and all mean very little. And it has in the past driven me insane to look through a guy's profile when I'm interested, as in "who is that girl and why did she write that?".
E-mail me some specific questions about Facebook and I'll see what I can do. therulesrevisited@gmail.com
DeleteI'm curious that you suggest not to write off the bar scene entirely. I'd be interested to know your reasons for this, and also what kinds of bars to spend time in versus which ones not to (other than the obvious ones to avoid, scungy/skanky ones).
DeleteMy friends keep saying "you're probably not going to meet a good guy in a bar..." But I see it as at least good practice for flirting, and very low pressure - and hey, the Universe can put opportunities in front of you *anywhere*, as long as you're taking a step outside your door in any direction.
Cassandra
Look for a post about this soon. Mind if I quote your comment?
DeleteYes, please feel free to quote :)
DeleteThank you for addressing the "bar scene" one, I see there are comments/questions on it peppered in some of your others posts as well.
Cassandra
I emailed you questions about Facebook, it might have gone in your spam folder.
DeleteGood advice, Andrew!
ReplyDeleteDefinitely easier said than done, though. I am with Charming Disarray on this one...
So many women stay in hopeless relationships because staying is easier than leaving. It's pretty amazing that when you think about it, most of us have a relationship with 2 or 3 people before we get married. Logically, that sounds totally insane! Great article.
ReplyDeletebtw, where did you get that graph? The only thing I really disagree with is that people become more internally attractive past the age of 50. I know plenty of people who were awesome in their 40s who become total assholes in their 50s and 60s.
ReplyDeleteI made it based on my observations of the average woman at various ages. Basically by thinking, tweaking, testing against experience and examples, re-tweaking, etc.
DeleteI agree with your criticism by the way. Others have pointed out flaws too, as I knew people would. This is why I included the caveat about not paying too much attention to the values, but to look at the big picture instead.
Fair enough. The rest of the article is spot on I'm just nitpicky :o).
DeleteThis post is the only one connected to the "marriage" tag and so I read it again :-)
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested to know a little bit about the male age curve, and I think perhaps other women are as well.
- Do you agree that (high quality) men have to reach a certain age before commitment is interesting? When I see guys in their early twenties in committed relationships, they are often 'lower quality', or with fewer options, to be a bit blunt.
- If a man is in his thirties and single, I get a tad skeptical. Sure he might have come out of a long relationship, but that is more common for women than men - a lot of guys stay single until they meet 'the one', and don't bother with temporary LTRs. It seems to me that the most desirable men who actually want to meet a lifelong partner do so before 30, but after 25. Which means that the age group women should focus on is also quite narrow.
I'm in my early twenties though, I understand that women whom are already over 30 would look for older guy (but IMO are better off looking at the divorced men rather than singles).
In the same way it is a waste to stay in a LTR that isn't going anywhere, would you say it is a waste to hope for something serious from a guy that is too young? (under 25 IMO).
It really depends on the guy... Some guys want to settle down at 25. I think it is less probable than a 28-32 year old guy wanting to settle down, but it isn't unheard of by any means. I could ask the same question about women at 18 vs 26, and I think you would give me a similar answer, though the numbers would be different of course.
DeleteSome guys get married at 21. And I know a guy in his twenties who got a girl, a 16 year old schoolgirl pregnant - and then he married her before the birth of their first baby. They now have two daughters and the girl is 21. They have the most beautiful family. I kind of envy them (in a good way), though she didn't finish her education beyond GCSEs (high school).
DeleteAlthough there are variations, the age a man is most likely to settle down depends on a) area, b) religion and c) educational level.
DeleteMen in big cities typically marry later and religious men will marry earlier. In the US, a man is (statistically) likely to marry 3-4 years after ended education. They want a few years of freedom while working and perhaps to buy their own place. They also know that they are better off starting to look for a woman when they've secured a good job and started to advance, rather than when they were still in college.
Men with a college/undergrad degree will typically marry at 24-25, men with a master's degree will marry around 27-30. I'd be skeptical of a man who wants to get married very early (early twenties) or is still single when he's mid-thirties.
Of course getting pregnant will sometimes rush things, although I'm not sure if I'd pull that strategy ;)
I like the chart, although in my experience, the drop-off is far more rapid for women in their late 30s than what is shown in the chart.
ReplyDeleteThis is very sound advice for young woman. Great post.
ReplyDeleteI would add that if I guy is commitment-minded, there is a good chance it's because he'd like to have a family (meaning at least 2 kids).
Fertility comes into play. I am too lazy to look it up right now but I think women have lost 50% of their eggs by age 30, with a rapid decline from there. So, if a man wants 2-3 healthy children, he will need to be courting the girl by the time she is about 21 in order to allow time for that to lead to marriage and then multiple pregnancies, before the age of 30.
Sucks for women, I guess, but that's nature. Feminism tells you to ignore biology, that you can have it all and get married in your mid thirties but that is not so unless you want to be stuck with the leftover guys.
Woman's selling price is highest the closest she is to 18 years old without going under. Another 'sucks but true' kind of fact. If you want to maximize the quality of man who will marry you, you want to start looking for an older man in his late twenties, when you are about 20 or 21.
A woman loses eggs before she is even born. It doesn't mean that she is infertile on her day of birth. So long as she is still a healthy, menstruating female, she is producing an egg every month. New research has backed up the theory that problems tend to arise due more to older fathers than older mothers due to the fact that women have a clear cut off point for fertility (a protection from nature so that old and feeble women don't have to try to endure child birth and die before their offspring is an adult), while men have sperm that continue to replicate all their lives with a higher probability for error once they start to get old. In one study, the children of older mothers actually performed better on cognitive tests. They didn't have too many other details on that study though, so I don't know what other factors came into play. There are now sperm banks that won't take sperm from men over 40 for this reason of declining fertility and higher probability of mental complications in the child. It's not a guaranteed error of course though, and a man at 50 has a much lower chance of this happening than a man at 60, so it doesn't really make too much of a difference for most men that want families.
DeleteBut the number of eggs a woman has is irrelevant so long as she actually has them and produces the standard "1" every month during ovulation. Also, her husband has to be healthy and fertile as well. Men do have a decline in fertility after a certain point. Hugh Hefner is an extreme case, but he couldn't get Holly Madison pregnant in his 80s, and it wasn't her fault because she is older now (32) and pregnant by a younger man. Some men can still have children at that age of course, but men do become less physically attractive to us after a certain point as well. It just generally takes longer, so men do fare much better in that department on average. In my personal opinion, men seem to get really hot around 30-something. Those are their most attractive years to me. And nobody likes to leave those behind, but sooner or later, it happens. It's just life, and it's unfortunate for men and women alike, except for those that age very slowly or seemingly not at all :-).
That said, because men do seem to place more emphasis on appearance, than women, (and because most women don't exactly fancy being older mothers), I agree with the author of the article that it makes the most sense for a woman to start thinking about family during her most appealing years. I'd wager that very few 50 or 60 year old couples want to be chasing around a small child that's not their grandchild :-/.
What then of women past the age of thirty who are still attractive (looks five years younger) who are in a relationship and want to get married. Any advise?
ReplyDeleteI'd give the same advice as I do in those post: don't waste your time. NOW are your most eligible years, so max them out. Cut out any guys that consistently balk and any relationships that arent getting progressively more serious.
DeleteEven if those women really do look younger, their age will still be a factor as men often assume that the older a woman gets the more difficult it will be for her to have children.
DeleteYou have such a good blog, I really enjoy reading. Although I agree with everything you wrote, it is so hard for me to move on from my current relationship. We live within 20 min walking distance of each other, and see each other only once a week. I obviously need more, but he doesn't think it's necessary. In January, I thought I had enough and broke up with him. But I missed him miserably. Although we met only once a week, we texted every day. I missed sharing my everyday stories with him: I hate the feeling of having something exciting in my life, but no one to share it with. As you might have guessed, I crawled back to him, and I can't say it's better. When he asked about our current status, I said I don't know, and it has been very hard for me. This weekend, all I want to do is to meet up and hang out with him in this gorgeous weather, but since we are not official, I can't call him out of the blue and ask him to make plans with me. I don't think anything changed from his side. Me, I realized I needed him more than I had thought. I feel very stupid for crying my heart out over the first breakup, sort of getting over it, and then now about to hurt myself again. I'm in your "most eligible years" and I don't want to waste any time. But how do I do this?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I did a variety of things, but it didn't make me feel any better. I trained for a 5k, volunteered, joined 2 sport leagues, took art classes, etc. I'm always very happy when I'm doing these activities, but when I come back home to an empty house, and there is not even anyone to share any story with, it is very hard. I don't see any proposal on the horizon, and what am I talking about, we are not even in a real relationship! It is so damned hard!
you do it by deciding whether or not (a) you want to be with him and (b) he wants to be with you. If the answer to either one is no, you have to suck it up and cut him off. Easier said than done, of course, but it is the best way to go. It sounds like you are still undecided on (a) and (b) though. Why not sit down and talk with him about it?
DeleteHi Andrew and all.. :)
ReplyDeleteI am a 27 year old woman (28 in October) and I am just wondering how a woman of this age should go about dating..particularly following a string of messy relationships. I stayed with a guy I didn't feel entirely passionate about for 7 years (from 18-25) and women..I will say..don't waste time with someone who you feel you are settling for OR who might just be settling for you.
Anyhow..I just feel lost.. :( I am still attractive (as far as I'm told) and frequently get asked out on dates but I just feel jaded. The men I have been out with since the break up were either only interested in sex or too pushy about commitment or controlling. Now I typically turn down dates because I don't know what I'm doing.
I am getting nervous because I am aware that I will not be in this physical state forever and guys place a lot of importance on attractiveness and youth.
So how would a woman in her late twenties go about finding the right person..a person to settle down with?
The quick answer is "follow the advice on the rest of this blog." My posts collectively give a pretty good map of how to attract men, and the game doesn't change too much as you age. But while you have more freedom when you are younger to spend time in relationships, you need to filter more quickly and more often when you are older. Your advantage is that you have experience and know more what you want than you did when you were 20 or 22. Use that knowledge to be more efficient with your time. If a guy who has two or three things you KNOW will disqualify him for you, don't go out with him. If you see signs that a guy just wants to get in your pants, don't go out with him.
DeleteDude, I so disagree with you about the "you are probably the most attractive in your mid to late twenties" and that those are the years when I was most able to attract the most elibible mate.
ReplyDeleteYou could not be more wrong about this.
In fact: it's just the oppositie.
I just turned 50, and it was not until my late 40's that I think I reached my prime -- spritually, emotionally, physically -- and especially sexually.
The men I attract now are so much more interesting, and deeper and self aware -- and on every level better than anything I ever experienced as a younger woman. Because I have become the woman I always wanted to be, and have the strength, and confidence and depth of character to attract those men who have the ability to be an equal partner in every way.
For any of you out there that think life is over if you don't get married by the time you are thirty? Please. Don't listen to that crap. First, it's wrong -- and second it's so incredibly American. There is a whole world out there that waits for you -- no matter what age you are.
My father told me when I was a teenager, and had my first heart break in high school "I hope I'm alive Sarah, when you are in your 40's because you're going to be an incredible woman"
and he was right.
Don't let someone elses defination of what love and happiness should be get in the way.
Dare to love others in big ways. Risk being hurt.
Trust me -- it's worth it.
But most people want a family? Women in their 40s cannot - and do not - have healthy children. I don't want to be an old mum and like most people, I believe marriage is the best system for raising children. At 25-30 a woman is still physically attractive, still fertile and although not as mature as she is at 40, mature enough to start a family (provided she isn't one of the people who extends her teenage years till she's 30, which is even MORE American).
Deleteugh, 50? my ovaries would have expired by then, and worse, my metabolism would be incredibly slow.
DeleteSometimes women much earlier than their 40s don't have healthy children either. And a lot of men don't want children these days.
DeleteI'm stuck in a loveless marriage that's more like a brother / sister r/ship than a marriage, with two disabled children we had when I was in my early 30s. Can't leave because of the kids, don't want to stay in a marriage with no sex.
Do what makes you happy, and never, NEVER assume that you'll have healthy kids just because you're young.
If I could do it all again I'd have stayed single and got sterilised age 15.
My Mom had a beautiful, healthy daughter at 42... My friends' Mom had her sister at 47. Though not ideal, it has happened for centuries and continues to happen, that women have natural, healthy pregnancies in their forties. So I think people exaggerate. I'm turning 38 soon and find that I am attracting higher quality men than I ever have before... probably because I've grown as a woman and know how to handle myself much better. I also look much younger ... which is confusing to me and perhaps to others, because I'm not. I find that men younger, my age and older are attracted to me. But it is a funny and different relationship with each age group. So I am a little confused about how to proceed with my love life (just exited a 4 year relationship) - but I think the key is loving myself, being gorgeous, focusing on my life, valuing myself, giving men what they want (femmininity and flirtation, among other things!).
DeleteI followed the conventional wisdom and got married before 30. I gave birth to two kids, one at 29 and the other at 32. I heard about healthy pregnancies at 40+, but I recognized that stories about problematic pregnancies with less than happy results don't get the same level of attention. I cannot bring myself to tell another woman about the heartbreaks that some of my girl friends have gone through when they try to conceive.
DeleteAfter I got divorced at 34, I desire a mate, not a husband or provider. Andrew's blog focuses on the age group that he is in, which is the group that is hoping to get married and have kids. There is another group that's been there, done that, and that's where I will be looking for a mate. I am glad that there is still hope out there.
What would you say is the age when women are the MOST physically attractive? Assuming she takes care of herself, knows about fashion & makeup etc. A friend from a modeling agency told me that women's bodies do change a lot from 21 to 26. Obviously they care much more about details than men do.
ReplyDeleteThe graph is pretty equal all through the twenties. I just wonder if men NOTICE the difference of "youngness" in a 20 year old's body and a 30 year old's body (although I know that won't make you date a 20 year old).
It's impossible to pinpoint because it varies for every girl. Some are at their hottest at 22, others at 26, others at 32 - some girls get hottest later in life if they lose a lot of weight for example. It really depends. If you are trying to pinpoint your "hottest year" you are over-thinking it.
DeleteNonsense. I am currently my most beautiful, at 42 years of age, far more attractive than in my 20s, my body sleek and model like, my skin untouched, no cellulite, soft and lovely. I feel mature, calm and young but not juvenile.
ReplyDeleteA woman should not marry before she is 35 nor a man before he is 45. As for eggs and the rest...please. A friend of mine had her son at 45, he is healthy and brilliant, she took NO fertility drugs or such things.
The reason why the divorce rate is so high is that people marry too young for the wrong reasons.
when your friend turns 65, her son would only be 20. instead of saving up for her retirement, she would still be sending a kid to college. and chances are, she will be dead when her son gets married and have kids of his own.
DeleteYeah, I agree. This comment summarizes the mentality I am trying to combat. The reason the divorce rate is so high is because people are trying to find a relationship that will be without problems, when the truth is that every relationship has problems, and the ones that survive are those in which the couple acknowledges this but has decided to work through them - not to live without them.
DeleteAs for you being your most beautiful at 42 - prove it. Post pictures, link us to them, and let us vote.
Worst case scenario: what if your friend gets sick? Her son will have to spend his late teens or early 20s taking care of an ailing mother (or both parents) instead of enjoying his youth. he will also miss out on going to a prestigious, expensive uni because the money has dried up due to medical bills.
DeleteAs Andrew said in his post about older women, "older women are still pretty hot"- if you take care of yourself, there is no reason why you shouldn't attract a lot of men. I don't this blog is meant as an attack on older women, the point is that you need to change your expectations and primary market.
DeleteIf you want your own children or to be someone's first wife, you shouldn't wait until your thirties. If you're an attractive, single woman in your late thirties, you are better off looking for a divorced man. An attractive 36 year old will still be a very good deal for a 50 year old divorced man. Sure you'll have to be a stepmom, but you can't have it all. I know too many single women in their late thirties who date younger men. Or even attractive men the same age as them - a rich, good-looking 40 year old guy still has a shot with 20-somethings. You need to go up another 10 years. Or settle for someone who didn't meet ALL your requirements.
It's about expectations and planning, really. Eva Longoria is 37 and gorgeous, and not even she can make it work with younger men, or anyone at all.
Keep telling yourself this and maybe you'll eventually believe it.
DeleteA 42 year old woman can still be moderately attractive in outlier cases but so so far removed from her beauty at 20. The only exception would be if she was a disgusting fat 20yr old with piercings, vile attitude, horrible fashion etc and managed to pull herself out of that spiral to become a slim, cultured and graceful woman.
But how often does that happen?
Vile attitude? It takes one to know one.
DeleteMost gamers seperate their developed persona from their non- existent personality, their actions are not truly their own.Over time they learn how to best exploit broken and drunk women for sex, there is no self development there at all, and no emotional connection. It`s a very sociopathic form of behavior
I agree with anna.
DeleteHow do you spot a serial monogamist?
ReplyDeleteI think I was dating one. He seemed to be more interested in relationships than sleeping around, had a history of monogamous relationships, although they ended within the 2 year range. I felt like he fell for me pretty quickly, and we entered a bf/gf routine very quickly. It did not take long before he started very personal conversations and invited me places, he appeared very emotional, but in the end he disappeared when it became difficult / we were located different places. When he couldn't see me for a couple of weeks, he quickly gave up and found out someone else. He seems to have started the same routine - within no time she's taken on long weekends and introduced to friends, like I was.
When we were going out, he occasionally talked about his exes, I got the feeling the relationships ended when the magic ran out. It's understandable that he needs to get laid, but he appears to need a "girlfriend".
Problem is that these signs of interest have always been things I've been looking for, now I've become a bit wary of them. I'm thinking in terms of dating, there is a bit "easy come, easy go". I don't trust my own filtering skills anymore, he was so obsessed with me I thought it must be the real deal. Is it actually a warning sign if a guy is too "on"?
Interesting. Maybe. I think this guy is not the norm though... I don't have any specific advice about how to spot one, but I suspect that, in general, you are probably more attracted to men who don't want a relationship immediately. Follow your gut/heart when it comes to that.
DeleteAll I can say, as a smokin'-hot 51 year old who looks like she's 38, (really) is that this article helped me move on from a twelve year stint with a commitmentphobe. Not one to cry over spilled milk, if I wasn't so hot, I'd be pissed. The good news is that I'm ready for a partner for this leg of the tour and will not waste a nanosecond with someone unworthy. So muchas gracias for this post.
ReplyDeleteDo guys hate when girls aim for older men? I don't mean 4-5 years older, but 10-15 years older or more?
ReplyDeleteBoys generally mature later than girls (although the 20s make a big difference - a 27 year old man will usually be a LOT more mature than a 23 year old). But I recently dated a 26 year old who turned out really bad (even though everything pointed towards him being great). I find myself much more drawn to older men now. They most likely got their shit together and they're not flaky or on a 'search for themselves'. After my last heartbreak I won't have sex with anyone anytime soon, but I am open to go out with an older guy. Also the 20-something guys I date have good options with women and are mostly interested in exploring those options.
I mentioned it to a (young) male friend and he seemed pissed off and said he hated how women go for guys much older and how they assume they will be better somehow. I understand that there are assholes at every age, but there are obviously clear advantages to seeing a 40 year old man (+) who knows how to talk to a woman. I've registered the same attitude with other guys, they seemed to have a lot to say on the subject. It was as if this issue was often on their mind - I don't get that, it doesn't bother me that some men go out with older women (although they are usually in minority and it's a temporary thing).
Have you heard guys talk about this? Or speak negatively of a 25 year old who's going out with a 40 year old?
Andrew, what is your view on dating more than one man at once- NOT sleeping with any of them and before "the chat".. especially during the time period stated above?
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with it, as long as the girl isn't leading the men to believe she is only dating them (which doesn't necessarily mean she needs to tell them).
DeleteHI Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI am a 31 year old woman and I am dating a 41 year old man for 6 months now. It is a long distance relationship but I am riginally from the city that he lives in. At the moment we only see each other 1-2 times per month.
He has had a really bad year. He was officially divorced at the beginning of the year before we met and his dad died 4 months ago. He also moved house. Needless to say that is a lot of stress and it is impacting our relationship. There is a wall up and I don't feel as though I can tell him how I feel about him. i think he may have a mild case of depressin but I don't know for sure.
He told me that that he loved me 2 months into the relationship (that was before he moved house and his dad died). I didn't say it back mainly because I felt it was too soon and I son;t throw the L word around unless I am 100% sure. He also said he wanted me to meet his kids and I said I would like to later as I felt it was too soon. I didn't want to rush things.
Now, since the stressful events in his life he hasn't said he loves me since and said that since his dad passed his perpective has changed and that he doesn't want to introduce me to the kids yet. I said that I understood. I have been seeing a therapist as this relationship has become quite heavy for me. At the beginning he thought he had struck gold and called me 4 times per week and texted but that has decreased significantly. I hear from him twice per week now.
He didn't come to visit me for 3 months. I was travelling to see him because he was settling into his new house and didn't feel like going anywhere. Last weekend he came to visit for my birthday. He booked a hotel and took me out to dinner but no gift. We went browsing in stores and he bought HIMSELF a bottle of cologne. Also, he brought up the subject of fake boobs 5 times over the space of 48 hours and I caught him looking for a long time at a girl at the pool wth fake tits. His ex wife had fake boobs and he told me a while ago that he did not like them. This is the first time I have ever been really dissapointed with his bevaviour. It just seemed over the weekend that he was being completely disrespectful and thoughtless.
He is totally taking me for granted. I am attractive (I often get asked if I am a model) and intelligent. I am a professional artist and at the top of my game (not that that matters probably). We have the same interests and great sex. Most importantly we are relaxed around each other and can have a good laugh. What the hell is going on? Do you think that he is frustrated that I haven't responded that I love him too? It is very hard with an emotionally unavailable man to put your feelings on the table.
Lately, I have been considering moving to my city again mainly because of work reasons but also because I think that if this relationship has any way of working we need to be able to see each other more often. I told him that I was thinking of moving there and he said that he didn't want me to move just because of him. I said that iit wasn't aall because of him. I asked him "You don't want the pressure?" He said, "yes, exactly".
Your post has made me realise that the next 3-4 years of my life are paramount. Am I wasting time? This guy has had a terrible year. Do I wait for him to deal with all of his emotional baggage?
Give it to me straight Andrew. :)
Your general point is very true and has been addressed recently by others. For example, the book "Marry Him: Settling for Mr. Good Enough" by Lori Gotlieb, a journalist who recently had a child single at 40-ish, discusses dating in later age, and how her particularly attractive friends walked away from good men when they were most attractive, not realizing the pool really does shrink and their attractiveness shrinks, too. However, sir, I disagree with you about when women are most attractive, and it's not a trivial detail. It's said by one of her chapter titles (and I independently agree), "I had it all. At 23". The age is younger than your suggestion. Perhaps you have a preference for the personalities of older women; perhaps you are older yourself, for one, and prefer your peers. But other conversations point to my point, too... Such as the higher success of younger (not teenage, but early to mid-twenties) marriages. ... Why it matters, for one, is that, if you're in college or university, you're surrounded by opportunity during your 19-22 years that will shrink radically afterward, in the work world. If you hook-up throughout those years, you waste the opportunity to learn how to have a serious relationship, and find a good man (many will be taked by the end). I would never advocate going to school to get your Mrs. or pushing for an unnatural relationship because you hear a noexistant clock ticking... but putting the peak attractiveness at almost 30, as on your graph, suggests the same delay phenomena that one could regret ... Also, lastly (really!) happiness surveys (whatever those are worth, but it's a related point) show that women's happiness declines with age from 20. ... I don't know how you get that internal attractiveness increases with age... I know too many miserable 50-year-olds, and fun-loving, hopeful, reasonably responsible, 25-year-olds, maybe.
ReplyDeleteNot entirely sure about this. I am within the 26-29 range and I receive far more attention from top notch men than I ever had at 23..it's just a matter of who to choose and how to play it right.
Delete"By the age of 27 women’s market value decline has begun. comparative to the next crop of 22-23 year olds, the decline progressively becomes more evident."
ReplyDeleteMarket value? Women are people..not commodities.
DeleteMost attractive sometime in your mid- to late-twenties?
DeleteBiologists say 15-18. Well, most models are that age...
Biology does not say that. Women peak in their fertility at ages 25-26...thats what evolutionary psychologist David Buss's research has shown.
DeleteAnd most models are not underage. The most famous/popular/highly paid models are in their twenties and some are already in their thirties (Adrianna Lima, Giselle)
You're def going on my blog list. This post was so for me. I have done this once before (being strung along). I am now 29 and have met someone who is trying to do the same thing. He says he's not ready and wants me to wait for him. He loves me but he has an issue with labeling the relationship. I just don't understand. He is recently divorced but I dont really know if that's a big part of it. But all I hear is I love you. Thanks for this post and your perspective!
ReplyDeleteMake sure YOU are not keeping the relationship hanging. I had a woman keep me hanging for two years (after I proposed a year and a half into the relationship (I finally broke up to go after someone else). More than ten years after I proposes, I called her and told her I had fallen in love with someone else. She was broken hearted (and still single). She is now in her fifties, living with her parents and her husband, with none of the four children she wanted. (It was the fourth woman I had fallen in love with after her.)
ReplyDeleteI'd like to point out one thing. This chart does not take into account race.
ReplyDeleteNot to be racist (and I'm totally going to say something racist here) but white women have a tendency to age TERRIBLY. Unless she happens to be anything but pure white, by the time she's 35, she could easily pass off as 45.
You would think that Angelina Jolie, Halle Berry and Sofia Vergara are of the same age but Halle Berry is 9 years older than Angelina. Sofia Vergara just turned 40 while she could easily pass as a 34 yrs. Sanaa Lathan (a black woman) looks like an easy 30 and she's 41! The same goes for Padma Lakshmi.
I'm just saying...but that's a nice chart though.
"Black don't crack!"
DeleteNo, but you do have a point. This is why I acknowledged the variations on age vs. attractiveness. Race can be a contributing factor for sure.
I almost cry reading this post, i just spent five years in a STUPID/DEAD relationship, and it TOOK ALL of twenties (23-28). I could effin' kill myself...ugh. I made him aware of what i was seeking/need, he kept on delaying and i became complacent. BTW...He is now 41, and i am 28. Broke that -ish off in September 2012.
ReplyDeleteAll power to you, sister! You can fight on and get stronger. :)
DeleteDon't worry silly, you have plenty years left to find a nice guy! ;)
DeleteJust stay open and go out and meet people.
x
You are only 28. Your most eligible years are still around you. You don't have TONs of time left in your prime, but if you use the next few years efficiently you can still meet plenty of solid men. Use your bad experience as a learning lesson to motivate your efficiency, and in the end, you might end up ahead of the girls who spent their early twenties partying.
DeleteKeep your head up.
Anon, I am 28 and have been single since 26 (by choice). I can honestly tell you that I have never received as much attention from men as I have in recent times. I met a very nice guy recently and although it's early days I am optimistic regarding the future with whoever it is I end up with..might not be him, might be someone else..you never know who will walk into your life. Do as Andrew says and work on your appearance, make yourself available and don't waste time with men who are just looking for sex. Almost every women I admire or look up to (in the media at least) is in the 25-34 age range..even over that in the case of Kate Beckinsale, Diane Kruger and Marion Cotillard. Make the most of these (and in my view best) years and avoid listening to ageist Internet trolls who have their own issues to contend with.
DeleteAll things being equal, a 26 year old female cant compare to a
ReplyDelete18-22 year old female.
18-22
*smells better to men
*tighter skin
*less baggage
*less need 4 makeup
True, but then also 26 yo:
Delete*sex probably better
*more to talk about
*more confident and secure in herself
*still very attractive
Yeah a girl at 26 vs. 18 or 22 is essentially the same, except the 26 year old has a better personality. You're splitting hairs dude.
Deletehttp://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=women%20over%2025%20are%20disgusting&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpuahate.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D46580&ei=kfzyUKWEBIWj4gTAzYG4Cg&usg=AFQjCNGOXpy9dPbVpTLD4eek49gB62_jUg&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.bGE
DeleteSo these guys are lyin?
JimmyS:
DeleteSome comments then.
" And all the white ones have wrinkles underneath that makeup" - No kidding, I just started getting wrinkles (35 yo woman). Hardly no creases and lines until after 30.
"I could never be content sleeping with women in their mid-late twenties" - Geez - this person hasn't experienced enough of life!
"Women over 25 really are disgusting." - same comment as before. I get plenty of attention from guys from age 23 upwards btw. Would say more from younger guys. They usually mistake my age by 5 - 10 years less. (even when sober). And they keep coming back.
The younger girls are not very experienced in life and sex and if you are looking for that, then go for younger them.
It might be true what you say about younger girls in general, but you are being pretty shallow about it and not taking personality into account.
The fact that he has chosen the name "JimmyS" to post under(Google Jimmy Savile if you're not from the UK)makes me think he's definitely a bitter, insecure troll with too much time on his hands.
DeleteEveryone knows women's looks go downhill even after 21, they just have different degrees of delusion toward accepting this reality.
DeleteYou might be right, but (a) the change is so negligible between 21 and 28 or even a girl's early 30s that it is dishonest to represent it as being a major turn-off - or even a turn off at all; and (b) you consider nothing about internal attractiveness.
DeleteIt sounds like you have some kind of fixation on younger girls. I have a friend who is like this actually, and he admits it. He attributes it to never having a girlfriend when he was that age, and now subconsciously wanting to get one just to prove that he can.
Yes for fuck's sake I'm tired of hearing this bull. It's all relative, especially depending on the individual. Genetics come into play, and how well you have taken care of yourself. I get mistaken for 18-22 all the time! Like when I flew home to the holidays, a 26 year old guy who hit on me on the plane ride thought for sure I was 22. And then when I flew back with no makeup on this time, the guy who took my bags asked me how old I was bc he thought I was so young. Then told me he'd guess 18. I am 31. But I'm also Asian, and aging very well for even that.
Deleteya clearly dont go to clubs or bars. especially bars.
DeleteEspecially after you take one home and the makeup is off.
25+ women dont ever wanna be seen without makeup
American men are too fixated with age. Thank fuck I live in Europe.
DeleteThat maybe the case but I wouldn't base my opinion of American men on this guy JS's comments - he is clearly deranged.
DeleteSo it is not true that a 22 yo smells better to men than a 26yo?
DeleteJimmyS - why this fixation on smell? :-D
DeleteMight be the case (never noticed myself).
"So it is not true that a 22 yo smells better to men than a 26yo?"
DeleteI have never noticed a difference. You must have a super sensitive nose - and a fetish.
Yeah, as a 21-year-old female, I would say there's no difference.
DeleteIf anything, children would smell the best (they need less aggressive shampoos and shower gels for a reason as dirt doesn't build up) and teens, as at a certain point at the end of your teens you tend to have more of a bad smell after sweating.
Afterwards, it's all dependent on someone's own individual smell and the products they use (body lotion, perfume, shampoo, deodorant, body splash, etc)
JS, I have a feeling you are probably talking about the 22 yo heads that you keep in your freezer vs the 22 yo heads that you have in your freezer. So I guess you are probably right: the 22 yo ones smell better than the 26 yo ones.
Deletefirm but well-rounded and shapely breasts & buttocks r powerful signs of a woman's health, youthfulness & ability to procr8. their sagging is also 1 of the first signs of aging as a girl moves in to her mid-20's womanhood.( ͡° ͜Ê– ͡°)
ReplyDeleteNaturally, there are exceptions...
Sir Andrew, what is your opinion on this?
ReplyDeletehttp://makeshiftalpha.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/sexualvaluewileecoyote.jpg
I think it is an exaggeration (although the phenomenon is real), made by men who have been rejected by women so many times that they feel the need to strike back at the most vulnerable part of women's self-esteem.
DeleteMany people argue that female prime is actually 16-20 and that
Delete18-22 year old women are SUPERIOR products to 26+ year old women.
youth is wasted on the young
DeleteThere is an obvious reason why most men would prefer a 16 year old over an 28 year old
DeleteIt isn't obvious to me.
Deletereproductive potential
DeleteFuck dude, how many children do you want that you need to get her pregnant at 18 in order to avoid her infertility??
Deletewhy are pedophiles trolling this blog??
DeleteWomen are the most fertile at 22, not 16.
DeleteI dont want some barren woman.
DeleteOK (age photographed):
ReplyDelete31: Una Healy http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/11/article-2260743-16E06D8E000005DC-407_634x434.jpg
31: Rachel Bilson http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/wennpic/rachel-bilson-premiere-fun-size-05.jpg
33: http://cdn01.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/king-metball/jaime-king-2012-met-ball-03.jpg ....(and this woman was a drug addict)..
28: http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Felicity+Jones+2012+Vanity+Fair+Oscar+Party+td8mVipHq4zl.jpg
31: http://assets5.gcstatic.com/u/apps/asset_manager/uploaded/2013/00/kimberley-walsh-cosmopolitan-magazine-2013--1357211079-view-1.jpg
I could go on all day but I think that the age of height attractiveness for woman in all ways is in the 25-34 age range. If you already have natural beauty and a health conscious manner there is no reason one cannot hold onto it.
How do you avoid the pressure to settle? My family are driving me crazy as they have settled and as I do not have a boyfriend, I am being told that my standards are "too high". The thing is I am not actively looking for a boyfriend right now as I am working on improvement first. I do enjoy dates, offers and attention but I am not ready to commit. If I am honest, I am the more attractive one in my family (never been rated less than 7, 9 max) but even though I do not look it, I am in my late twenties. I am just going nuts at this expectation for me to have a serious boyfriend just because I am getting older. I do intend on looking for one soon but I always figured there's no need to freak out if you are still catching the eyes of men.
ReplyDeleteSocial commentary written by a woman that is over 25 years old can be considered mostly bs. You cannot expect a woman, whose primary function is to make babies to be anything but bitter and dishonest after her eggz and lookz start to go
ReplyDeleteI would say that a man 'choosing' to have a sexual relationship with a woman much past 20, is pretty much being raped, unless the female he is dating has made it clear she does not approve of feminist sexual trade union laws
DeleteThis is disgusting. Oh and Andy..eggs* and looks*. Fuck sake.
DeleteGirls under the age of 25 are dumb as hell. Good luck with that. Lol
DeleteMy boyfriend is already talking about cohabiting after we graduate college this year. We've been together 3 years so it's a legitimate request given today's social norms. He already says he wants to marry me, would marry me right now if he could, etc and he does act like it. But I don't want to live together because I don't want to give him the perks of being married without actually being married or engaged. Any suggestion how to tell him no living together without saying that?
ReplyDelete@Anonymous on January 20, 2013 at 10:40 AM
DeleteBut I don't want to live together because I don't want to give him the perks of being married without actually being married or engaged. Any suggestion how to tell him no living together without saying that?
Just tell him. This will sound both crazy and counter-intuitive, but by refusing to live with him outside of marriage, you are both
a) demonstrating your worth as a marriage partner
b) preserving your worth in case you break up or he gets hit by a truck.
Flame away, I'm old enough to be your father and I've been married longer than either of you have been alive.
Please note: marriage is a very serious life step. "For better or for worse" sounds so...romantic, but that's because you (probably) haven't faced any adversity yet. Marriage isn't reliably 50/50; oftentimes it is 70/30 or even 110 / -10 (think illness).
I'd advise looking carefully at his father and brothers and see how they act towards women; and I'd advise that he look at your mother carefully.
Also -- should you get married: the *two* of you should make it a JOINT effort to make the marriage (not the wedding ceremony) a priority: single women may want to "poach" your husband, or friends of yours (jealous of your catch) may try to encourage you to look down on him or belittle him in your eyes.
Be feminine, emotionally supportive, and don't NAG him: rather, encourage and support and CHEER him, and a good man will then go out to slay dragons on your behalf.
Best wishes & prayers for wisdom and strength for both of you.
AnonymousJanuary 31, 2013 at 7:59 PM:
DeleteI love your comments. Think it's really important to remember what marriage is actually about. It should not be taken lightly.
Just wondering if you could give some examples when you say that a woman should look carefully at his father and brothers?
I know that I have some similarities to my mother in her behaviour (not looks really) and I am pretty critical so I try to be the best of her.
I agree on the point with 'don't NAG him: rather, encourage and support and CHEER him' - I have done this in a relationship before and he never wanted to leave me and never cheated (as far as I know). I was very proud of him and I told him so often (still do). I think my encouragement brought out the best in him and he wanted to be the best. My ex still contacts me before he's having an important interview or if he's got good news about his work. He knows I still feel proud of him and that I'll be there to tell him encouraging words.
about women: i heard that a fit 18 year old body always will be superior to a 30 year old body in look & feel. my question is: at exactky what age does the transformation from superior body to inferior body occur? Age 19? 22? 26? 28? 30
ReplyDeleteThere is no single age. All woman are different and all men have different taste.
DeleteI will say this though: now matter how hot you are right now, you can be hotter a year from now if you work on improving your appearance by using the numerous tips I've included on this blog.
Very interesting post, Andrew. I must say, as a 35 year old STILL SINGLE woman, I agree. For the last half of my twenties, I was in a committed relationship with the wrong guy. Two years leading up to our breakup, I kinda knew I was no longer in love with him, but I stuck it out, because I got complacent and comfortable. I SO wish I would have had the foresight to see how hard the dating scene would be once I entered my 30's...I wish I would have kept my options open, and dated more guys. I haven't lost hope that "the one" is still out there...it's just a lot more difficult to find him now. It's a lot easier for people who are in their 20's...get out and enjoy the club scene while you can!! Although I still feel like I am in my 20's in many ways, it's pretty much frowned upon for someone my age to go out barhopping to meet men...just my experience, but thought I would share in the hopes of helping your readers. Best, Laura :)
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI just started following this, thank you! So I have been dating this guy for 4 months now... In the beginning (especially) I feel like it should be fun and exciting... Something feels off and I feel like he is holding back. Am I over thinking or is he still unsure about me.... He introduces me as his girlfriend but if this is what it likes being his gf it sucks! I feel like we aren't bf/gf we are just dating.... Would love to know your thoughts! Thanks!
I would ask him about it. After 4 months if he still doesn't want to take it to engage in the relationship fully, then maybe you aren't right for each other. I would at least point it out to him, and ask what is going on in his mind. This conversation could easily end up in a break-up, but it could also help him tell you what he is questioning about the relationship and give him a chance to vent his doubts. And maybe he will just need a little more time to figure out that you are the girl he wants. Don't give him TOO much time though. If after another two months he's still showing signs of reluctance, I think you should break it off so that you can find someone who is more enthusiastic.
DeleteAlso focus more on yourself for now and try not to work any harder to bring him closer. Trust your instinct, does it feel as if he doesn't like you very much? If so, are you OK with that? If not, then I don't think he is going to like you more down the road.
DeleteMany women believe in the rubber band theory which basically says that a guy will pull back because his feelings for you are too intense and he needs space. The theory encourages women to wait for their men to bounce back. In my opinion, that works great to keep the woman hanging while the guy explores his other options. When he eventually comes back, it is because he doesn't find anyone better, misses what she has to offer, or is touched by her patience. Some men indeed want that kind of relationship, i.e., with a woman who sticks around because she likes him more than he like her, or women who are safe bets (i.e., with less game, less self-esteem, from a lower league). I don't want to be with that kind of men.
I first noticed a reduced level of efforts on his part after dating for two weeks. Spoke to my dear girl friend and she gave me the rubber band talk. I approached him gently about the topic and of course he said no he was just busy. Things stayed the same after that, then he picked on me over something trivial, so I left. Total time from the beginning to the end: one month.
DeleteIf I was willing to wait around, we would still be in a relationship. It would have been a waste to dump me even though he wasn't that into me. We could keep talking and working on it, and I could lower my expectations to match his interest level. I didn't want to do that.
What about a guy who tells you early on he doesn't believe in marriage? Should you stick around or leave?
ReplyDeleteAnonymousLilly
If you want to get married in the (near) future, then if I were you I'd leave. If what you are looking for in the relationship is not the same, you will only be wasting time staying with someone who truthfully told you what he wants (to not get married) at the beginning of the relationship.
DeleteTotally agree. Even if he has valid reasons to support his position.
DeleteAfter my divorce, I believe that if two people want to be together, they will work to stay together without being married. But I also remember why I got married in the first place. If I meet a guy who wants something different, than it is a waste of his time and mine.
It is possible that either party may be convinced to believe otherwise, but that takes time and high compatibility in most other aspects. Do you have that much time?
@Anonymous on January 26, 2013 at 3:49 AM
DeleteWhat about a guy who tells you early on he doesn't believe in marriage? Should you stick around or leave?
AnonymousLilly
Run. Leave skid marks on your tires and barrel straight through the window if you have to.
Full Disclosure: I've been married over 25 years.
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ReplyDeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI was wondering, what other reasons would a guy be interested in a girl for? (other than sexual and serious dating). For example, if a guy flakes on a girl a few times (when making casual plans) but still explains why he did and takes the time to call her almost daily ( as opposed to just texting). What could this mean?
all things being equal a 26 year old woman cant compare to a 19-20 year old woman
ReplyDeleteThe only women who age badly are the ones who..a) abuse their body b) panic and go down the fake route or c) poor genetics. Beyond that I see so many attractive women in their 30's in real life and in the media.
DeleteYes. And if you take care of yourself very well on top of that, it obviously helps even more. At 31 I can't even keep track of how many men are hitting on me anymore. Every time I go outside I am getting hit on, and many men have been pursuing me. I'm fading out men everyday, and remaining open to meeting new ones, and honestly this feels the most productive right now. I wasted some time serial dating, and am now trying out something new, which is just being open to talking with new men, and allowing rotations for longer than usual. Normally, I start becoming monogamous with one guy pretty quickly. But I now realize this was always premature because I wanted the benefits of a relationship without taking the time to find the right person.
DeleteAll women are hitting the decline at 26, regardless of race. Extra melatonin just reduces the external appearance of it.
DeleteA man who can form a successful lifetime bond with a young fertile woman will produce MANY children over his lifetime. Better yet, the odds of his children surviving and then successfully reproducing themselves will also be increased significantly. The fact that she is good looking is icing on the cake. Enjoying casual sex with 26 year old women on a one-off basis is good if you can get it but it only works for some and the cost of failure is quite high. That is how natural selection works. Humans rely on the K factor as much as the R factor.
ReplyDeleteRetarded considering most women now have their first child in their late twenties to early thirties.
DeleteWomen should be told that they benefit most from ignoring education and carer, having children at 22, and then go for education and carer at 30. That way, they won't need to take a break in the career just when they are about to get into the flow, and they get to have the children while their body is best suited for it.
DeleteAs an added benefit, they won't need to start panicking about becoming spinsters, nor to hide their sluty past for their husband, nor becoming jaded. Instead, they got everything done, nice and tidy, at the ripe age of 30.
Raising kids is a lifetime obligation. A lot of women I see who have children are stuck with them, and there is no way they can pursue a full time career now. They have one real shot at it, and once they have kids, until those kids are much older, that's it. Get real. We are not on this earth to be a baby making machine for men. We are people who have our own desires, and wishes in life.
DeleteAlso, studies show that college-educated women, and women who have advanced degrees are more likely to actually stay married, and are happier in their marriages:
Delete"In fact, college-educated women now marry later, have fewer children, are less likely to view marriage as "financial security," are happier in their marriages and are the least likely to divorce."
Here is one article:
http://www.livescience.com/8049-college-educated-women-stay-married.html
I agree with you Janey.
DeleteAs well as that, I wouldn't want to bring a child in an environment where both me and the child would have to suffer too much financially.
Also I am so much more confident and well equipped in knowledge now. I think that looking after a child at an early age, might not be as beneficial to him/her. At least those are my thoughts..it is only now in my 30s that I feel ready to be a mother, with or without a man to support me.
I will put ALL of my reputation on the line to say that a 26 year old woman is *generally* past her peak.
ReplyDeletehaha the emphasis on "ALL" is completely undermined by the emphasis on "generally." That's like saying I am SURE that the price of oil MIGHT rise.
DeleteI agree that in general most 26 year olds are at or past their PHYSICAL peak, but there is a lot of variation involved.
What reputation? You're anonymous. Stop trolling. Perhaps it is indicative somewhat of the average female. But I am 31 and for example, a few months ago I had a 22 year old hit on me who was scared that I wasn't even legal. I would say a good deal of variation can exist depending on the individual.
Delete"I agree that in general most 26 year olds are at or past their PHYSICAL peak"
DeleteMen too? I feel old now, dude. Turning 27 in a few months :-(
Hi Andrew, one of your posts says that women in their 20's should consider men 3-6 years older than them for marriage and ltr, but what about single women in their late 20's to early 30's looking to marry? I find that single men 3-6 years older than the late 20's-early 30's women sometimes consider them to be too old; so when these women are looking for partner, how much older should they generally consider?
ReplyDeleteDo you mean that men in their mid thirties consider women in their late twenties and early thirties to be too old? While I can see how they might consider women in their early thirties to be "too old," I would be surprised if they felt this way about women in their late twenties. (Perhaps you are summarizing the opinions of male bloggers more than the opinions of "real" men).
DeleteIn any case, assuming you are right, my suggestion would be to instead look for men in their late thirties, or hone your game for the select few in their early- or mid-thirties who ARE interested in you (I don't believe there are NONE).
Keep an eye out for the post about female game for women in their thirties, it is virtually finished and will be posted soon.
"A 10 is absolute perfection. A 23 year old is essentially not as perfect as she was when she was 17, however good she still looks in comparison with most women, therefore by definition she cannot be a 10."
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't need to keep repeating myself like a ruined record about the estrogen profiles of a nubile 16-18/19-22 year old versus a 26+ year old on the decline.
DeleteThat is ridiculous, at 17 I still looked like a child. I don't see how that could be attractive to a mature man unless he's a pedo.
DeleteI think there is legitimate room for men - even men at 30 years old - to be attracted to women under 20. But to say it is the norm, or that a woman at 17 is categorically at her peak is absurd.
DeleteHow long do you think a woman should wait for a college boyfriend to propose? I would not date someone for more than two years without a proposal/clear growth in that direction if I had not started dating them until after college. However, the lines are blurry when I've been with my boyfriend for three years in college but obviously I don't expect him to propose the minute we graduate (even more complicated that he will be in grad school the next few years). However, what I don't want to happen is I stay with him throughout my prime (21 now), he graduates from grad school in a few years, gets a good job, and dumps for me for someone younger. He's given me no reason to think he would do such a thing and he frequently SAYS he wants to marry me but still better safe than sorry.
ReplyDeleteHonestly if I come right out with an age, I think he would comply. But I don't him to feel pressured into it. How do you give a man a time frame without coming right out with it? Andrew/other male readers, how would you want a girl to let you know her thoughts on that? Do you think 1.5 years out of college for proposal is a reasonable expectation? I'm assuming the 1 year thing in this post is for people a few years out of college.
I would sit down and tell him honestly what you are thinking. Tell him that you know people change, and without his commitment you are worried that he might change his mind after grad school. See what he says. If he is unwilling to budge, then you might consider breaking up with him. Tell him that if you are both still single after he graduates grad school you'd love to discuss getting married, but that you aren't willing to invest the next 2-3 years with him if he isn't willing to propose.
DeleteA compromise might be that he proposes now, and then you can get married after he graduates.
If you've been with him for three years, don't you feel like you know him at all? Is he really the kind of person who would suddenly ditch you? I think if you worry too much about things without any good reason to worry about them, you may end up getting what you 'expect' to happen - i.e. the worst possible outcome.
DeleteSome people are together/married for a long long time, but change and split up. other people stay together for a life time. You don't know what is in the future. If marriage is all that counts, time to go your separate ways. If being with someone you enjoy being with is more important. stay. The worst mistake ever is pressuring someone into marriage. It happened to me, I got married because he really wanted to, and I didn't want to break up. It ended in disaster. I am far happier now, I feel and look younger and I am healthier, plus I get to live MY life and do what I am passionate about, with amazing people that I really love around me. Had I not been pressured into something I wasn't ready for, maybe I would/could have developed together with the guy and we would have lived happily ever after: He is not a bad guy but the timing and pressure was lousy.
DeleteKat
why are mid- to late-twenties most eligible years?
ReplyDeletea girl that takes care of herself at 16-19 > a girl that takes care of herself in her late 20's
Many people argue, succesfully, that female peak is really 16-30.
Deletecorrection: 16-20
DeleteHow do they make the argument?
DeleteDon't make unsubstantiated comments.
A 23 year old is essentially not as perfect as she was when she was 17, however good she still looks in comparison with most females, therefore by definition she can not be a 10/10.
DeleteYou will be hard pressed to find an extaordinary looking woman that is past age 25 ;-)
That's why it's a well known fact male peak in the sexual marketplace is 30-35, whereas the female peak is 18-22
DeleteA 23 year old woman is still in her early 20s, as in still considered young and in her prime. I suppose people are entitled to their opinions, but it just seems like a bunch of nonsense to say that a 23 year old woman is not as "perfect" as a 17 year old. And unless you live on some kind of a compound, you're really not going to find a 16 or 17 year old to marry.
Delete@ anon, 10:42 AM
Delete30-35 year old men are for the most part, NOT as attractive as men in their early to mid 20s who likely still have all their hair, no beer belly, and usually fitter, stronger, leaner bodies.
Money and status is what makes men attractive, not fit bodies
Delete@anon feb 27/12
DeleteMoney and status AND fit bodies, height and good looks are what make men attractive to MOST women.An average looking or unattractive man with money may be able to find young, attractive women to date, but not nearly to the same extent that good-looking, fit, tall men with money and status are.I think that men's egos convince them that their exempt from being judged on their appearance and that they're somehow immortal, or as they're so fond of saying"only get better with age." Yes, SOME men age better than women but many, some even as young as their late 20's begin to lose their hair, develop a beer gut and premature wrinkling. How is that aging better? The fact is, everyone is prettier when their young and in their prime, and yes, that everyone includes men.
So many men seem to think that money and status are enough to get a woman attracted to them; even if she feels no actual physical chemistry. This is just not true and when men have this mentality, I think they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Although I don't entirely blame them for thinking this way as they've been conditioned by society to an extent to believe that all they need are these things to get any girl they want, I think they would face less disillusionment if they better understood that women too value appearance, and that if she does not feel an attraction, a real and lasting relationship will probably not come about.
DeleteAmen. Men are kidding themselves if they think woman don't care about the way they look. We do. A lot. The average 'older man' doesn't really have a shot with an attractive, much younger woman. Some do, sure, but they are the tiny minority. Just take a look around - the vast majority of people are in relationships with only small (1-5) year age gaps. This is reality. So, you men who apparently think women start to look haggard after 17 surely have a bitter and disappointing future ahead of you. Enjoy! :)
DeleteA 17 year old hotter than a 22 year old? How old are you people who are saying this. A 17 year old, to me, (with a few exceptions) looks like what she is, a child.
DeleteAnd "hot" woman care a lot about looks. The rest of us, yes, it does play a part but isn't nearly as important as it is for guys. Why? Because attraction for females is much more complex than for a man. Men = physical only. Women = Physical + character.
I wonder how many of the guys who believe that money and status alone make a man attractive actually know any wealthy men and their girlfriends. I met a number of rich guys through my former job, and the ones who were confident and handsome/tall indeed were quite attractive to me. The others, not so much. I didn't get the impression they had above average succss with other women, either
DeleteI guess being a millionaire or billionaire can offset a lacking appearance, but there are only so many of those. Fame helps, too, especially when the girl is an aspiring model or actress who is hoping to increase her market value.
In everyday life people nearly always end up with someone on a similar level of physical attractiveness as themselves. Hot people end up with fellow hot people. Average people with average people. Less attractive people with less attractive people.
DeleteGood looking women go for men that are confident, successful AND good looking. This idea of women wetting their knickers over anyone with 'status' is a myth. Physical appearance is a huge component of attraction for women too.
A man can exclude himself from the market by being obese or extremely short, but all it takes is for him to be average. Every successful, high status man I know is with a woman significantly hotter than himself. Just look at all the rich men with younger women. Girls tend to be visual in their teens, but that goes away. It is not a myth, go out more and observe. I know a lot of well off men and they do very well with women, even if they are not objectively good looking.
Delete@anon march 1 8:23AM
DeleteIt's not a myth about how women are just visual in their teens. What, do you think that women lose their vision after their teens or something? It's human nature for both men and women to appreciate and value physical beauty. These men you speak of who are not objectively good-looking and yet still do well with women may exist, but how do you know the women who are with them are not just in it for their status and money?
Another thing to remember is that a man with good-looks already has his foot in the door when it comes to attracting women. He doesn't need to say anything about his money or status for her to notice him and become attracted. An unattractive or average man with money and status can not physically attract a woman with just with what he has because she can not tell his status just by looking at him. And if she decides that she's not attracted to him, she's probably not going to give him any signals to approach her to find out.
Delete"What, do you think that women lose their vision after their teens or something?"
DeleteNo, they start valuing different things, they start looking for a life partner and the attributes who makes a good partner and provider becomes more important than a guy who looks good on a poster on the bedroom wall. They also get to know themselves and their preferences better.
"These men you speak of who are not objectively good-looking and yet still do well with women may exist"
May exist? They're everywhere. Calling women golddiggers when they go for a man who's not handsome but rich, is like calling men assholes when they look for beautiful women. It's not only false, it shows a lack of understanding of human nature. A man is not just "rich", he has social power, financial power, success, ambition, confidence - all crucial to attract women.
@ anon mar 1 8:56 AM
DeleteI think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never said that women who go for men that are rich but not handsome are gold diggers, I just asked how do you know that some of these women are not JUST in it for their status and money? Not all women who go for rich guys are gold diggers, but some are, and for the unattractive rich guy to think that women want him cause he's oh so sexy is just naive. "Social power, financial power, success, ambition, confidence" in a man can attract women, but do they not change his physical appearance, meaning the women he's with may appreciate these traits in him, but they're not going to get her all hot and bothered like how a man who she's really attracted to will. I'm not sure where you live, but I haven't seen unattractive rich men with young hot babes "everywhere." And a man who only likes beautiful women, and doesn't care about her character or anything else important is just setting himself to get burned.
They really aren't "everywhere" though, are they? Women that go only for status exist for sure, but they are very much the minority. Most people date and end up with someone on a similar plane of physical attractiveness as themselves. You only need to look around you next time you walk though a busy public space to see that that's true.
Delete@ anon mar 1 8:56 AM
DeleteAnd I agree with you that women start to value different things as they get older, but NOT to the exclusion of physical appearance and chemistry.
my post was in response to anon at 8.56am. I agree with the above poster.
DeleteA-I agree with you too.
DeleteWhen I said "everywhere" I obviously meant when you are AMONG wealthy men - most men aren't wealthy. I grew up in a neighborhood and part of town with a lot of wealthy families. I know a lot of guys from very rich backgrounds and I know a few entrepreneurs. In fact, most people I socialize with are upper middle class or above. These guys, regardless of what they look like, do very well with women. They also have a confidence most men don't. They're outgoing, social, have good manners and great knowledge, they're cultivated and well educated. These things matter.
DeleteYes, I agree the traits you mentioned above matter, I never said they don't. But the women these rich but unattractive men do well with are probably making some kind of a trade off. Maybe they're not so physically attracted to these men, but they're willing to overlook that because these men have other valuable attributes to offer which make these women feel secure and love, however security and love, while very crucial, do NOT necessarily drive PHYSICAL attraction, which is the point I've been trying to make. These women you speak of are probably with these rich but unattractive men IN SPITE of their looks, not BECAUSE of them.
DeleteActually, I find how physically attracted I am to a guy very much does depend on how attracted I am to him in other ways. Not all girls are wired that way but a lot are.
Delete"But the women these rich but unattractive men do well with are probably making some kind of a trade off"
DeleteI disagree completely. A man's personality WILL make me more physically attracted to him. Women can be 'fooled' into thinking a man is more physically attractive than he actually is due to his personality, in the same way a man can be 'fooled' into thinking a beautiful girl has a better personality than she actually has. It's possible you still have this teenage mentality, but I rarely observe that in (intelligent and beautiful) women I know.
@anon Mar 1/10:59 AM
DeleteI said that valuable traits other than appearance do not NECESSARILY drive physical attraction, I didn't say that they NEVER drive physical attraction. I myself have become physically attracted to men who I did not initially feel that for, and not trying to sound arrogant, but I too (like the women who you say you know) am often described as an intelligent and beautiful woman, who does NOT have a "teenaged mentality" that you seemed so quick to inaccurately judge me for. My stance this whole time is that money, status and personality ALONE do not drive physical attraction in women, and that men having these traits but not physical attractiveness to go with it, are not guaranteed young hot babes like so many in society seem to think they are
I think I have struggled with this. I personally like men who are attractive, have status, and money. I would prefer to end up with someone like that. But I try not to think like a "golddigger" and be open minded to other men. A man who would give me a lot of his time and attention, as opposed to work. However, when I'm with these kinds of men I never feel like I can settle down with them. I just keep thinking how much better I can do. Maybe it's time for me to be more honest with myself about what I really want.
Delete@ anon mar 1 6:11
Delete"Maybe it's time for me to be more honest with myself about what I really want."
That's probably the best thing you could do for yourself. So many women seem to think that by being with a man less attractive and/or older, that they'll be more appreciated and treated like queens, but this is just not always true. In fact, the irony is, sometimes men who are much less attractive than the women they try to date, end up insecure and treating the woman like she's not good enough for them, even when it's clear to everyone else that SHE is waaay out of HIS league.
No I meant that instead of dating guys who are attractive but don't have status, maybe it really is important for me to be with a guy who has status, and money. Just because a guy has status and money doesn't mean he's nasty. There are a lot that are attractive, and maybe I should primarily be dating those guys, I don't know.
Delete18-22 is female prime in earnest. A female will never look any better, her estrogenic hormones are at their peak. 25 is not hitting The Wall yet, but her looks have slightly declined since 18.
ReplyDeleteWow, not sure where you live chickendippaz, but there's plenty of post 22 yr old women who are still gorgeous.
DeleteChickendippaz is a troll. Don't pay mind.
Delete"In the swimming baths, without hair styling, make-up, jewellery, or expensive clothes, I rarely see any attractive woman over 22"
ReplyDelete@ anon feb 28 12:47 PM
DeleteEvery woman, even those 22 and under, look better with all the stuff you described above. Very few women, regardless of age are complete natural beauties and will require the help of make-up, hair and nice clothes to look their best.
any female over about 25 generally doesn’t stir things up inside us anywhere near as much as the sight of a a nubile, firm and young teen body does
Delete@JimmyS
Delete"any female over about 25 generally doesn’t stir things up inside us anywhere near as much as the sight of a a nubile, firm and young teen body does"
I don't know about anyone else, but the Jimbo's statement sounds kinda pervy, eww! Jimbo, it's not like these teen girls are legally available (unless they're 18-19) for you to date. And even if they were, who says they'd be interested in some much older guy? When I was a teen anyone more than 5 years my senior just seemed old.