If a man isn't getting rejected by women regularly, he will probably never find one that satisfies him. Because all women have different taste, men need to approach a large number of women that they find attractive in order to find one that reciprocates that attraction. This requires serious balls, thick skin, and persistence. I think most women appreciate this fact.
In general, a man has to get rejected many more times than a woman in order to succeed at dating. When a girl complains about a guy who stops returning her calls, my first instinct is to tell her "You think that's bad? I was rejected more times in the last month than you've been rejected in your entire life. Try being a dude for a week, then come back and complain to me." However, I don't, because I realize that the rejections a man endures - although no less damaging to his pride - are easier to bear in light of the knowledge that he can approach more women in order to find a new girl. A woman has less direct control over new dating opportunities. Although she can improve her chances by making herself more attractive, she can't just approach men at will without being seen as crazy or desperate. She has to wait until another man (that she likes) approaches her. Though she faces fewer rejections, she also faces fewer opportunities, so the rejections she does endure have more impact.
While women typically get rejected when a man walks away after an initial encounter or date, men typically get rejected when they approach. A woman has to have the courage to let the man walk away, while a man has to have the balls to approach in the first place. While men have to become confident enough to approach without knowing how a woman will respond, women have to become confident enough to let a man act according to his true feelings for her, without knowing whether he will stay with her or leave.
So although the nature of rejection is different for the two sexes, it is equally necessary for both. A man gains nothing from staying on his side of the street when a beautiful woman passes on the other; a woman gains nothing from perpetuating a relationship in which she constantly initiates. A man needs to initiate with the possibility of being rejected, and a woman has to let the man initiate, with the possibility of being rejected (i.e. the possibility that he will not initiate). Both sexes have to take risk and face rejection if they ultimately want success.
All of this is to make the point that rejection, while difficult for both sexes, is a necessary part of the dating landscape. You can't avoid it, so get used to it. As I've said before, if you aren't getting rejected, it probably means you aren't dating up to your potential. You are the only one responsible for your dating success. And like in all other aspects of life, you can increase that success by taking risks, enduring rejections, picking yourself back up and trying again.
Related Posts
1. Why Rejection Is a Good Thing
2. Why Do You Want Him Back?
3. How To Ask For Feedback From A Guy
In general, a man has to get rejected many more times than a woman in order to succeed at dating. When a girl complains about a guy who stops returning her calls, my first instinct is to tell her "You think that's bad? I was rejected more times in the last month than you've been rejected in your entire life. Try being a dude for a week, then come back and complain to me." However, I don't, because I realize that the rejections a man endures - although no less damaging to his pride - are easier to bear in light of the knowledge that he can approach more women in order to find a new girl. A woman has less direct control over new dating opportunities. Although she can improve her chances by making herself more attractive, she can't just approach men at will without being seen as crazy or desperate. She has to wait until another man (that she likes) approaches her. Though she faces fewer rejections, she also faces fewer opportunities, so the rejections she does endure have more impact.
While women typically get rejected when a man walks away after an initial encounter or date, men typically get rejected when they approach. A woman has to have the courage to let the man walk away, while a man has to have the balls to approach in the first place. While men have to become confident enough to approach without knowing how a woman will respond, women have to become confident enough to let a man act according to his true feelings for her, without knowing whether he will stay with her or leave.
So although the nature of rejection is different for the two sexes, it is equally necessary for both. A man gains nothing from staying on his side of the street when a beautiful woman passes on the other; a woman gains nothing from perpetuating a relationship in which she constantly initiates. A man needs to initiate with the possibility of being rejected, and a woman has to let the man initiate, with the possibility of being rejected (i.e. the possibility that he will not initiate). Both sexes have to take risk and face rejection if they ultimately want success.
All of this is to make the point that rejection, while difficult for both sexes, is a necessary part of the dating landscape. You can't avoid it, so get used to it. As I've said before, if you aren't getting rejected, it probably means you aren't dating up to your potential. You are the only one responsible for your dating success. And like in all other aspects of life, you can increase that success by taking risks, enduring rejections, picking yourself back up and trying again.
Related Posts
1. Why Rejection Is a Good Thing
2. Why Do You Want Him Back?
3. How To Ask For Feedback From A Guy
I've often thought that if a man can learn to be immune to rejection, he'd never have to read a game blog ever again - women would teach him everything he needs to know.
ReplyDeleteGood post. I'm convinced that fear of rejection is the only thing standing between most men an their success with women. That's why so many keyboard jockeys in the manosphere post great comments, but never get laid.
it's the single most important factor. but there is learning and insights that you might not get if you don't read / learn from others. this comes after growing a thick skin.
Deleteperhaps you may have a point. perhaps if you're immune to rejection, you get to a point where you're good enough to get what you want.
no, there is always more stuff to learn that isn't about approaching or getting over fear.
Deletethere is sustaining a relationship, really insightful things that are hard to come up with yourself, like the analogy between confidence and beauty, etc.
not to put you on the defensive or anything, but here are my reflections that may be helpful to you. please try not to take it the wrong way. i have no ill intent, it's just raw thoughts.
my initial reaction to your comment was that it had to be untrue. because it is quite a simplification and an extreme. perhaps this is a projection of yourself - that fear is your greatest limiting factor. I sure know it's mine.
Did you know that men can control 100% of their personality? Maybe if you focused on improving yours — I'd say you should be spending probably 70% of your time working on your personality, stopping only to eat and sleep — you would get rejected less.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - Gee, that sure ounds like a GREAT way to live!
Delete"Did you know that men can control 100% of their personality?"
Deletebull? stop making stuff up?
Did you know that you comment is complete nonsense?
Delete"So although the nature of rejection is different for the two sexes, it is equally necessary for both. A man gains nothing from staying on his side of the street when a beautiful woman passes on the other; a woman gains nothing from perpetuating a relationship in which she constantly initiates. A man needs to initiate with the possibility of being rejected, and a woman has to let the man initiate, with the possibility of being rejected (i.e. the possibility that he will not initiate). Both sexes have to take risk and face rejection if they ultimately want success."
ReplyDeleteHow profoundly poignant is this paragraph?! I really needed to read this. Thanks, Andrew
I agree great paragraph exactly the words I tuned into and it helped me too. Within the hour I have just been rejected by a man I thought liked me, but realise only just this week I have initiated the contact more and he`s backed off and I mean completely backed off, gone!
DeleteThanks
Me too. I'm a girl, probably a 7 in younger years, but do everything wrong: I am too "strong" personality wise. I initiate, out of boredom of waiting for them to act, and in my younger years I would also take the lead, depriving men if their chance to be The Man.
DeleteIts funny, my independence, while its enabled my wonderful life and career, has me in my 40's lonely and sad that I don't have a partner.
Having just suffered a breakup after a year with a man I really liked, I realized that although I learned my second lesson, I hadn't learned my first: he was only sport fishing the entire time, with not enough morals to care that that's a cruel game for a woman over 40.
But, this site has really helped me see where I went wrong, thanks for that.
Now, just to pick myself up and see if there are any worthy, AND attractive men out there. Ha ha ha ha ha. Sure. Wish me luck.
Good luck, girl! :-)
DeleteI absolutely agree! I actually hand-written the whole paragraph to instill it in my mind. I was debating to call or not to call a guy I went out with three times. I am not initiating anything if he doesn't!
DeleteThanks for this.
Anonymous January 28 2013
DeleteAnd I bet my life savings you couldnt have cared less about the feelings of men when you were younger and made more opportunities than them.
Andrew, bravo, great post!
ReplyDeleteOh, 1:47 Anon, I think I might be the only one here who gets the joke.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is just so wonderfully, infinitely flawed.
For starters, I really like shy boys. How am I ever going to snag them if I don't initiate?
I know some girls say they like shy guys and some guys say they like girls who initiate. It's probably the case for some, but a lot of time I believe people are not being honest/aware of their true preference. Most women do want to be pursued, first and foremost to feel that he is a masculine man, secondly because it's the best (maybe only) real indicator of his interest in you. Many guys can say they like girls to initiate because it saves them the trouble or gives him a chance with women. In reality, he doesn't want more women to approach him, he deep down wants to get confident enough to seduce women on his own (I know men who admitted this). And a woman doing the job for him won't please him in the long run.
DeleteAlmost all the girls I know who initiate contact with men, wishes on some level that he would pursue them first. Like JS mentions, a man can be shy around many people, but still pursue when he's genuinely interested. So assuming a man is "too shy to approach" is not necessarily true, and it's difficult to know.
If I approach a man, regardless of how much he proves his interest later, I will always question why he didn't pursue me 100% in the beginning.
It's pretty condescending to say people aren't "being honest/aware of their true preference." How would you know? What you are is what you are, what I am is what I am.
DeleteI've definitely realized on a few occasions that what I thought was my preference was actually an opinion driven by popular social trends or unrealistic ideals developed during childhood (i.e. from Disney movies). By acknowledging this, my true tastes shine through and are more inline with my "natural" inclinations.
DeleteThat being said, I definitely see what you mean by the argument "what you are is what you are." In other words, who's to say that the opinions I had that were influenced by external factors were any less valid than those that were not?
Turtle, what you said was true and well put, but I agree with the lady from her point of view. I knew a guy that used his "shy, nice guy" thing to rope women by making them feel more comfortable. He could tear up over his emotions. Chics went for it. They weren't very good looking chics, but they suited his purpose.
DeleteTurtle, if you like shy guys, you can strike up an innocent conversation with them (i.e., what time is it? do u know the name of this song (in a bar)? hey that's a great book? have you read ___ by that author?)
ReplyDeleteYou can put yourself in their path without "hitting on them." That way the 'scary walk over to a girl and introduce yourself' part is removed from the scenario and they can feel comfortable asking you for coffee or your number. But if they don't ask, you can just gracefully end the chat and it doesn't seem like you were hitting on them or desperate, you were just making small talk or asking for directions to the subway, or whatever.
And for the record, my college boyfriend was the most painfully shy guy you can imagine but he still pursued me. (Granted we worked in a record store together so it wasnt a blind approach but he went after me on a first shift together (flirting) and by the 2nd or 3rd time we worked together, he asked me out. Point being, if a guy really digs you (and you remove the blind approach part), no amount of shyness is going to stop him from snagging you.
Just my two cents.
While I agree with the more general point, I need to jump in here: if a guy really digs you, shyness can definitely prevent him from pursuing you. In fact I think this happens much more frequently than women realize. I can't count the number of women I missed out on when I was younger just because I didn't have the balls to pursue them.
DeleteIf you are into shy guys, you will probably need to intiate. But shyness usually fades over time, at which point he will probably be more comfortable taking the initative. Shy guys are still men, and you still need to gage their interest.
I hit on men, I'm the aggressor with reasonable frequency. It doesn't bother me, and it gets me the results I want.
DeleteAndrew man, I love you. You made me change my game and have some results. Thanks
DeleteTurtle -- I think this blog is written by a "ladies man". The never initiate rule would really only apply to a specific personality type of man. I agree that there is a way to initiate and you have to be prepared for rejection, but a totally "never initiate" rule is a little absurd. I initate in certain situations, certain times I have and it didn't work. I would say, follow this initiate a first date, but don't initiate any follow-up. It's okay to ask someone to dance, a dance is only a dance. Don't offer your number if he doesn't ask. Never ask for his number. I'm sure I could think of others but those "rules" serve me well.
ReplyDeletegood post! fight with the fear of rejection and one day you will find a woman you deserve
ReplyDeleteBlack Singles Party
I agree with this but I have to add one thing to women's rejection; women don't deal with it well not only because we have fewer options to find men and have to depend on them, but because it usually have gone further when the rejection happens. Being rejected upfront by a woman in a bar may affect your self esteem but it is highly superficial and you have zero emotional investment in her. And as you've said, women get more emotionally attached than men, who over time "only gets laid a few times".
ReplyDeleteIf sex has happened, it will take time for a woman to get over it, no matter how hard she tries.
Certain phenomena are gender specific. A guy friend told me that women will never truly understand men's need for sexual variety. In the same way, I don't think men can ever truly understand what it feels like to be used for sex. It's a feeling that affects you physically, it's a strong blow to the self esteem and it makes you feel like a piece of garbage. There is no exact male equivalent to this. If a man gets laid with a woman he likes, I cannot imagine him regretting it. Even if a woman is working hard at filtering and following all the advice on this blog - if she is young and actively dating she WILL at some point experience being used for sex or have a guy string her along to keep the sex going. Especially if she is attractive - guys will go to extreme measures to have sex with or keep having sex with a hot woman. If he rejects her or flees after this, it will set a woman back and demotivate her way more than a man in the same situation. It makes you uncertain on whether it is remotely possible to filter out the assholes, which has a more long term impact.
That is a good point.
Delete"there is no exact male equivalent to this"
Deleteexact-perhaps not. but how about men being used for their resources?
how about men that worked hard to provide for a family and discovers one day that the kids weren't his, and she is going for divorce? bearing in mind no-fault divorces, the man ends up taking a double whammy - what is "the exact female equivalent" of that?
dealing with rejection is one thing. it is part of life. dealing with deceit is a different story. so keep your eyes open, and see things as they are.
@digra - interesting and I agree. and i'll add that men who get trapped in relationships thinking children are theirs is a horrible and unfortunate situation a man could find himself in. sad but true. some women can be devious!
DeleteAndrew - what are your views on prenups? Do you think it undermines trust in a relationship, or is it smart planning on the man/woman who suggests it? Would you ask a woman to sign a prenup or agree to one if requested?
Delete"exact-perhaps not. but how about men being used for their resources?"
DeleteI think this is over-emphasized.
Most men are willing to throw down a few bucks on a drink or a dinner for a woman. It's not a lot in the large scheme of things, not to mention you don't take nearly as many women out to dinner as you approach in a bar.
Of course there are bigger numbers such as divorce and alimony, but I'm not going to go there. Get a prenup. And by the way - statistically, American men get wealthier after a divorce, not poorer.
As a woman, if I had the choice, I would rather invest money in my relationships than emotions. I can earn those bucks back but emotional investment is hard - it both takes time to get over a man, get back on the market and on top of it all it makes you more cynical and slightly less able to open up and love someone each time. A "no thanks I'm set" in a bar just doesn't have that impact. A woman can easily be emotionally off the market six months after a breakup.
However, we don't really have a choice.
@ Marie
Delete"As a woman, if I had the choice, I would rather invest money in my relationships than emotions."
wow. that sure would be a cruel, cold-blooded way to live. who would want this kind of relationships, apart from sociopaths?
I won't generalize about this, but my impression is most sane people invest only in matters close to heart - and when I mean invest, it's not giving away something regarded as unimportant or disposable without a second thought, that hasn't any intrinsic value. I mean invest time / effort / commitment. is itremotely possible to leave emotions out of it? let alone desirable?
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@Digra: I agree that investing in relationships rather than emotions is kind of cold, but it's also a lot like some of what I've heard about men being fine with having sex with women without truly wanting them. See Andrew's stop having sex to prove he likes you post, which I think sums it up well. It's cold, but men do it, so I don't see how it's called "cold" when a woman does it.
DeleteI think it's possible (and permissible) to leave emotions out of it, especially in the context of a relationship when someone isn't really interested in another person. I think it's also the same when people try to forge an emotional connection in order to get a guy to like them. Emotional, physical, it's the same. I can see people having an emotional connection, but having an emotional connection doesn't define a relationship or true love. I have an emotional connection w my hairstylist, and I have an emotional connection w friends that stimulate intellectual curiosity, but they aren't people I will ever fall in love with. My two cents.
@ Emily L
Deleteit seems you've done your homework. (Not quite - clearly you forgot I already seen / commented on the post you mention.)
not being facetious or anything, I actually see reason in what you say here. however, people only tend to leave emotions out of it when those emotions weren't there to start with. also, I agree that projection plays a part in this - men project their desire for coitus interruptus, women project their desire for emotional validation.
yea, I'm a man, and I got laid a few times with women I wouldn't ever be seriously interested in, but priorities change. in hindsight, the excitement of simply getting a nut was short lived, and became "mechanical" after a while. so now I'm out for the real deal.
this argument will last forever. so get us some beer and crisps, will ya?
@Digra, i'm glad i at least entertain you :) I explained what seemed to be the rule, which I don't agree with at all. But I agree with you 100% on this one. I think sometimes people have to have certain experiences and understand certain things (about life, themselves, people, the NCAA...) in order to realize what they really want. I had a similar epiphany recently, and "real deal" potential is what I want in a man. I hope you find what you're looking for, and that you end up w someone who truly makes you happy! Agree on the argument/beer/crisps.
Deletewhoa, entertain? nah.. amuse is probably a more fitting word.
Deletelike a pussycat playing about with some catnip is kind of amusing, yet it would be a stretch to class it as entertainment. lol.
@Digra-yes, I can see how you'd not characterize it as entertainment with you. Just out of curiosity, what in your view constitutes real deal?
DeleteEmily - that is for me to know. But if you really wanna know, here's a hint: do your homework.
Delete@Digra-i think i have the answer :) ...i know my real deal definition. You, on the other hand, i think require homework indeed! I'm genuinely curious, so if i guess correctly will you tell me? And are you certain about the elements of your "real deal" or are you still deciding?
Delete@ Emily L
Deleteyes I do require it. from myself and from anyone else that wants to play a part in my life - self improvement is a must. If I want the real deal, then it follows that it is what I must become.
after 33yrs of knowing myself, and an array of experience with women, there are things I'm not willing to make concessions on - so at this point, I can say I know 90% of what constitutes "real deal" for me.
but yeah, try your worst and have a go if you think being smart makes you look good.
This is very Darcy/Elizabeth Bennet like. Coincidence with initials D and E? LOL Disagreements aside, this story ends well and happy.
Delete@Digra-i'm actually trying to understand something, nothing more :) So what's in your 90%? ...and what's part of the other 10%, if you know?
DeleteI'm getting weary of you going round in circles with your questioning. Weren't you going to take a guess?
Deleteunderstand? the day you step out of your cinderella shoes, and walk a mile in my size 9 steel toe-capped timberland's , that's when you'll understand. feeling brave?
@Digra-all the beer and crisps made me forget lol i didn't know there's such at thing as steel-toed timberlands. learn something new every day! ...yeah, i guess if i were to guess i'd have to break it down into categories bc i don't think it's simple. i guess i was hoping to narrow it down to specifics rather than think myself into oblivion. but, sure, here's my stab at what constitutes (or may constitute) real deal. i think what it boils down to is that once you figure out what you want, spend a lot of time w the person, and are sure there's long-term (not short term) joy/happiness there, that's the real deal. In addition, i'd say that while you accept the person for who they are, you help them be a better person, and they do the same for you. Those are things i would say originate out of love rather than criticism, and the worst thing a person can do is undermine someone they're dating by being critical in a destructive/disparaging manner or make them feel inferior or insignificant, or that they don't measure up to. Maybe also forgive them when they mess up? And finally, the sex must be great (requiring interest/contributions of both people). How does that sound?
DeleteTo break some of it down, would really be to reference many of Andrew's posts. Should I try to break some of them down?? But here are some highlights. i'm basing this real deal definition under the assumption that perfection isn't required.
Sex - sex is important, very important. Being a virgin is unimportant. There are pros and cons to either. A huge disadvantage w trying to have sex w a virgin is the emotional investment that you're not sure you really want to make. And worst is that you think you want to have sex a virgin, you do, and then you regret it. Sex w someone at the other end of the spectrum is cause for concern bc something like promiscuity opens the door to STDs, maybe inability to have orgasms, lack of ability to emotionally connect, etc. I think someone who's not a virgin who has some sexual experience is a good balance. I'd not lean towards one over the other, but I hate it when people criticize others for their sexual past. I'll admit being guilty of it (am now wiser), but if you choose to be w someone, you accept the good and bad, and that's just one thing you'll have to decide. I also dislike when virgins try to shame non-virgins, yet a non-virgin will hypocritically go chasing after a non-virgin. Nonsense. My point here is that it shouldn't matter, but if you're having sex w someone and thinking of someone else, that's a huge warning sign. I think making sure you have great sex is important. I'll defer to the lingerie from one of Andrew's posts. When people decide to have sex it shouldn't be mechanical, but pleasurable--fun.
Haven't given thought to other categories.
google it. everyone needs their arse kicked once in a while - those are my best tools for the job.
Deleteas for this dissertation: well done.
@Digra-very interesting shoes. Never knew those existed! Learn something new every day. Thanks on the dissertation. Could only think of that one general category as an example (sex). I have about 20% more to figure out
Deletebefore our host exercises his right and kicks us out of here for monopolizing this blog, if you have any more relevant queries, email me digra31@googlemail.com and I'll see what I can do.
DeleteI thought this was toward public good :) if u hear from anyone, it's not me! i'm scheduled to think more about the 20% next week. ur tid bits are helpful, so thanks. i know where to find ya!
DeleteYeah as long as you aren't posting spam or pointless comments, no problem
DeleteThanks, Andrew :) @Digra/Andrew - I'm working on my next "dissertation" and would appreciate some feedback/critique. I'll send along once I figure it out.
Delete@ Emily L looks like you've been busy! I'll vote favourably when it comes a time to find succession to Susan Walsh. Lol.
DeleteDigra - what did SW do to you? Why would u wish me upon her readers? lol I think we're supposed to be nice at this time of year.
DeleteDigra/Andrew/anyone - Here's my other % of questions: how do you know when you're happy in a relationship? The specific one I'm curious about is whether compromising one's beliefs is an important element of being happy in a relationship. I don't think it is. For example:
Delete(1) if you feel you have to depart from your religious beliefs to fit in and be more acceptable - you are religion A, and while your parents and family practice their religion, you decide to depart from that because the person you want to date is of religion B. You go into the relationship but also ignore the practical implications on your family.
(2) date someone you'd not consider ideal because no one else is available or you want to get laid - you broke up with person A and while you consider qualities of person A ideal, you date person B who you don't really like because while getting over person A you contracted an STD and the effect of it scared the shit out of you so you went to an extreme that you know you don't really want, but it's a safe temporary recovery spot and change of pace.
(3) you give up things you enjoy doing to appeal to someone else's views - you like gangster rap music but decide to take up trance bc even though you love gangster rap, you try it out at the person's suggestion, but really don't like it. there're probably better examples, but the gist is that you do things you wouldn't ordinarily do to make someone else happy because you think it'll make you happy when the actual issue isn't being addressed.
In some ways I think people experiment with different things, but when it comes to settling down and picking someone who's marriage material, they will go back to their traditional values. People who compromise tend to be ones who feel they are marrying up (i.e. by race or class)--that I think is the worst possible reason. It's like a chameleon that becomes whatever it takes to get the other person. Is that sustainable? ...is it true happiness?
No this is not a good point, she is trying to say dating is equal and it is not, if a woman wants not to be used for sex and wants a loving relationship its easy for her, she goes or a beta man, but they reect them all the time, ALL THE TIME, so no women don't get rejected unless they want to go with an alpha male !
DeleteGod, nature, or whatever creation method you believe in has a way of balancing everything out. Men regret the women he didn't have sex with and women regret the men they did. That's the nature of our biology as the only 2 genders on this planet.
ReplyDeleteDue to boys not having a lot of social awareness but more physical awareness, 14-30year old guys are usually at a disadvantage in the dating landscape. This is why many young women date older men. But from 35years old on, men usually have the advantage because they're not going to want to date women in their age group and will want younger women, but will have the experience and lifestyle to not be intimidated as their younger self or counterparts.
The important thing is that both sexes have a responsibility to develop their physical, mental, and emotional selves to the absolutely best of their ability so that they have the best choices in any stage of their life.
As Andrew wrote so well, rejection is a part of life for both sexes but the quality and quantity of options is mostly within your control. For the nice/weak guy or the overweight bitter girl that says, "I just want to be myself and have someone love me for me"...well, you're going to have to suffer a significantly higher level of rejections. That is a choice you make.
incorrect rejection is not equal the writer says a womans rejection is not getting chatted up, that's not a rejection at all its something to cover up and keep the women who read sweet, if that was a rejection then men face that all the time too and then they are also reected when they do approach, so no rejection isn't equal at all !!!
DeleteMay be a little off, but I feel like this is in line with rejection:
ReplyDeleteWhat's your take on virgins? Like what do guys generally think about getting involved with them? And I'm not just talking about those who are waiting for marriage. I'm also talking about those for whom -- for whatever reason -- it just hasn't happened yet. Do guys just automatically try to avoid dating virgins for fear of the challenge (i.e. she may want to be in a committed relationship first/dealing with inexperience/etc.) or are they more intrigued by the idea of being the first guy there? (Keep in mind that there are many hot virgins out there.)
I don't know if you already have a post about a guy's take on virgins, so please link if you do. If not, your perspective would be pretty interesting to read in a future post...
I've been planning to write one. In general, though, men aren't going to qualify or disqualify a woman based on her virginity (though some more religious guys might). It won't make or break the deal.
DeleteIt will for half of the world.
DeleteI understand that guys have to go through a LOT of rejection - more so than girls...but as you said, they get many more options and get to be in control of that situation/ball is in their court. Any advice on how a girl who is frequently rejected stays optimistic?
ReplyDeleteWhen you say frequently rejected, I am assuming you mean that guys ask you out, then stop contacting you or break up with you (i.e. not that you approach men and get turned down). The only advice I can give you is that if guys are approaching you, you are physically attractive, and being physically attractive is a big hurdle. Focus instead on being friendly, kind, open, thoughtful, etc. and this should help you sink the hook sometime in the future. Knowing that you are taking active steps to better your future chances will keep you optimistic.
DeleteBut don't be too friendly, too kind, or too thoughtful as some guys take that as interest when you are not necessarily interested.
DeleteGirl, you need to get out there and do your own thing. Sometimes you don't find a guy until later in life. And that's OK too.
What are your thoughts on men who choose to leave their phone numbers with women, rather than the other way around or through mutual exchange?
ReplyDeleteI find this is becoming more commonplace, nowadays, and it is interesting - men choosing to only give their numbers out when meeting women, so that the woman might contact them.
I don't know why it happens, but it is possibly because men are sick of getting a girl's number and then having her not answer when they call or text. Or it could be a plot to gauge your interest. If this happens and you are interested in the guy, I suggest you just text him your name so that he has it (and your number), something like "it was nice meeting you!" and then proceed as if he'd asked for your number.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSuch bullshit u know that women love to be used for sex 99% out of 100% of goodlooking hot sexy females and males treat sex like shaking hands and with no regrets its only stupid religious idiots that feel used.
ReplyDeleteThe kind of rejection that the two sexes face is not at all parallel. The idea that women should not take the responsibility to approach the opposite sex because they will be seen as crazy or desperate is silly. If a guy you approach thinks you're crazy or desperate for the mere fact of your approaching him, then he's not worth it anyway. Once a communication has been set up between two people, *both* are fully capable of rejecting by "no longer calling" or the like. I say this from experience, being a male who was rejected in just that way (by a girl who pursued me--and I did not think she was crazy or desperate for doing so, instead I felt flattered and desired).
ReplyDeleteBy the way (same anon.), to an anonymous comment, I am a male and feel no need for sexual variety. And while I am a virgin, I could very well imagine regretting sleeping with a girl that I like (if, say, she didn't want a relationship with me afterwards).
ReplyDeleteYour need for sexual variety is implicit, since you haven't exercised your sexuality explicitly yet. I was a virgin until I was 23, and the full onset of my sex drive didn't occur until I primed it by starting to have sex. The same will happen to you (I've talked to other men and they've had the same experience). Your sexual appetite is like your appetite for food: if you ignore it long enough, it starts to diminish. You've probably heard about how people who are starved cannot (literally) stomach large amounts of food when they begin to eat again. Their appetite shrinks. Your sexual appetite is smaller because you haven't had sex with girls yet (masturbation is a fairly different thing in this regard). Most men HAVE exercised their sexuality, so they do have an increased appetite - in excess of the average women, I mean.
DeleteMy need for sexual variety is still an assumption. I am sure that there is a way you can discount this, but if I could choose between x number of times with one (particular, not random) person, and x number of times with x number of people, I would pick the former. Also, I have pleased myself to the picture of the same person only for two years.
DeleteIn any event, just because (most, or many) males feel a desire for a variety of partners doesn't mean this should be countenanced in any fashion by females.
In that case, you would be an exception. And women should not focus on the exception, but the rule. In general, men want variety. And in general, virgins have no idea about their sexual preferences until they have sex. Even people that are adamant that they will be a certain way after sex change their minds. I have never met someone that hasn't changed in the least bit after starting to have sex (i.e. not talking about religious reasons).
DeleteI love that you say that the man should initiate. (Specifically, making the initial contact.) I'm a woman and I just feel it's tacky to approach a man.
ReplyDeleteThere is mutual attraction between myself and an unmarried man who is in his mid-thrities. I'm 5 years older, (but you'd never know it by looking) so at first I was unsure of whether or not it was mutual. I did some research into his body language during meetings, etc., and I am certain he likes me too. He's my daughter's middle school English teacher, so it's a little awkward. Since the start of the school year, we have bumped into each other occasionally, and every time, there is a LOT of chemistry! At first, he seemed to try to approach me (outside school) but he started acting odd/awkward! It was cute, actually... He's very good looking but I think he was nervous! Now he seems more relaxed but I seem him a lot less often.
I've looked it up and there aren't any ethical issues with dating, but I can see how it would be pretty uncomfortable if he approached me and I wasn't interested. I get this feeling that we are both trying to figure out how to make the next move. I also wonder if he's concerned or feels awkward about the fact that he's my daughter's teacher.
I wish it wasn't so hard for some guys to make the first move... And I wish I could let him know I'd like him to ask me out. I think I'm dead in the water.
I bed he is waiting until your daughter is out of his class. Even though it might not be unethical, it could be awkward for her.
DeleteIn the animal kingdom, the female creature emits a bunch of hormones during heat to attract the male creature. I'm not advocating smothering yourself in your own copulance, but you should turn on the flirtatiousness and charm offensive.
DeleteOr if you don't want to be too flirty, smother yourself in your own copulance. Researchers have found, men lose a significant portion of their cognitive abilities in the presence of female copulance and experience the beer goggles effect. A 3 becomes 7 if you get my drift.
What about guys that e-mail you online, talk for a while, ask to meet, then disappear and e-mail you again weeks later? Should they be cut off too? Is that a form of rejection?
ReplyDeleteAnonymousLilly
I'd really like to see a post on how not to get disheartened by men wanting to use you.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my twenties and get asked out on dates by different kinds of men. I have learnt to filter to some degree in a way where I know to say "no" to certain kinds of men no matter how much I may be attracted to them. I still get caught out however. On Friday, I had a second date with a guy and cooked him dinner (steak no less). I'm sure he was expecting sex afterwards but I told him that I'm not easy. He tried to feign that he was impressed by my morals but I could see visible disappointment on his face. He thanked me for dinner and left saying he would call "later" but I have not heard from him since. I'd never think to call him because I have too much pride but I really find this shit hurtful like they only spent time with me to get laid. It's hard not to take it personally. I know I will hear from him in a few days and now I am no longer interested. This has just happened a few times now and I am wondering where I am going wrong.
I have to agree with Finnish below. Even if it's going against your natural inclination to give, if you show too much initiative at first, it's going to led to expectation...or worse, set up the relationship for habit (i.e. you always doing the cooking). Unless it's the same expectation/desire, someone's always going to be disappointed. And even if there is disappointment, it's better to know sooner rather than later so that nobody wastes their time that may be better spent elsewhere. Rejection or realizing you both want/expect different things is not a bad discovery. In the long run, you're better off because the guy doesn't like you enough to try harder. And believe me, you want a guy who thinks you're worth the effort.
DeleteThere will always be men out there who want to use you, just like there are women out there who use men for attention or to feel better about themselves (i.e. letting guys buy them drinks when they aren't interested). That's the upside and downside of dating: we figure out what we like, don't like, and need. That developing of one's filter takes time build, whether it's through dates or committed relationships.
With regards to cooking, I'm very slow to introduce the extent of my skill (and I love cooking, especially for the people I care about so I'm always battling with my giving instinct). Mainly because it's so much better when the guy shows how much he wants you when he takes the time to cook you a full meal. And later when you do cook for him (and his buddies, like whipping up whatever is on hand at late-night parties and everyone's drunk and starving), you can be sure your guy will appreciate you all the more.
That said, you can still give encouraging hints if you know this is a guy you'd maybe like to pursue something further with and want to impress him with a taste of what he can have more of (once I did pack a salad lunch with homemade hummus and bread after we had a few dates, but didn't actually cook a meal until after we were in a relationship).
Thank you both for your input,
DeleteThing is this guy was making an effort until he realised he wasn't getting sex. In fact for our first date he flew out to meet me at my location and rented car (he works in the airline industry). Second date he drove a distance to get to me too. Maybe he just thought all of the effort equated to having sex but I felt I made and effort too and did not things to be rushed. Second date is too soon for me and I think maybe it's a case of him having too many options elsewhere.
Sadly, lots of guys are like that. I've been single for about 2,5 years and I was in a very long relationship before and since then I've had such eye openers about guys.
DeleteLots of guys just want to have sex straight away and they stop making efforts after they've had sex with you (too soon) or if they don't think they will get it soon enough.
To me, it sounds like this guy is a bit immature/not ready for a relationship and just wants you to give in too soon. Don't do it.
Think I read somewhere that it should be a bit like a trade (if you want something serious): Guy shows that he cares and fulfills you emotionally and girl agrees to sex because these are the most important needs for women and men. Obviously women also want sex and men also want emotions, in relationships but perhaps not always as much as their other priority..hope it makes sense?
Ah, the long-distance does put a wrench into things. I don't profess to be an expert on guys, but from I know (and heard from good male friends), most guys know if this is a woman he wants to have fun with, a woman he could have a relationship with, and if she is the one he wants to be the mother of his children. And when a guy is really into you, he will want to see you or be near you more and more.
DeleteI'd be wary of guys and long-distance, particularly at the start of the relationship. That's not to say that it can't ever progress into something meaningful, but generally it's gonna suck way more to be the girl in those scenarios.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!! the men women are attracted to ie the alpha males only want sex, there are millions and millions of loanly beta men who want nothing, literally NOTHING more than a nice relationship with a girl, they communicate this to you all the time, but you reject them for being beta men, its really not men its you and the men your attracted to, you shouldn't say things like this because beta men will see it as their hance and it really isn't ! you need to be alpha just to get a woman, so yeah of course their not gonna commit to you, but then its your fault !
DeleteIt's the harsh truth with many guys. They expect to get laid. Don't waste your time and effort cooking for a guy unless you know he's worth it. Next time, just pop some popcorn if even that.
ReplyDeleteI've known him as a "friend" for a while so I didn't mind cooking but I will no not to o that again until a relationship. Keep my culinary skills to myself! I know he will message again at some stage, maybe he feels rejected too. Either way, I'm done.
DeleteNot sure if this is true or not (guys, please fill in), but don't think men can just be friends unless you're unattractive to them. Think men will at some point think about or attempt to have sex with you even though they are friends. Heck, all of my male friends apart from one have tried to have sex with me. The one that didn't, thought about it for sure.
DeleteOh my goodness, please do not cook for a man on the second date! Men will immediately value you less, it's a psychological thing. If you're putting in all that effort for them in such a short amount of time, then how worthy could you be of them trying to woo you, or gain your affections? You're making it too easy. Also, don't even be in a situation where sex can happen, such as letting him into your own home on the second date?! He has to earn these things! Of course being in that environment, he would expect sex...If you had gone on a date outside, he wouldn't have. Men have to pursue, and prove themselves. No cooking, no no no! Please. And even if you were friends for a long time, you have to count only when the courtship began. Read "Why Men Love Bitches". It's very helpful.
DeleteAmazing insight Andrew.
DeleteYes read "Why do Men Love Bitches" AND "Why do Men Marry Bitches". Those books were an eye opener for me. I follow the author's advice and am experiencing far more success with dating. I'm being romanced in a way I never have before.
DeleteHere we go! Women say 'HE HAS TO EARN IT", ( cooking for him, giving sex) and just what do the women do to earn ANYTHING? Nothing? How wonderful of them!
ReplyDeleteThe whole dating game is a bunch of B.S. especially with all the B.S. pick artist books, internet forums and advice. I say screw the rules and just do what you want and if a person is so stuck in mainstream societies norms, traditions and "dating rules" then they are not worth it. This site is one persons opinion that is it and will not work for everyone.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the reminder of getting use to rejection...I had been married (still going through divorce 2 years later) for 17 years and 2 1/2 years after separated finally let a man come home with me...it was great but not what I was hoping for....so he did actually pursue me again a couple weeks later and I allowed him back to my bed once more and it was fantastic (I have known him for about 1 year and we always flirted alot and he is 15 years younger). Then we saw eachother (not a date) at a club but I did not invite and he did not ask...and that was it. I texted him about getting together on Valentines Day...guess that was a big no no...got no response and still he has not called or texted me. So I decided to walk away from it...but the rejection still hurts the same. Not planning on a long time committment with this man.....just thought we could be together some more times....get to know eachother more...but not wasting my time. So I doubled up on my work outs and going to start doing the traveling I have been meaning to do. But I still have him in my head - I hate that. Why would I want to still be around him if he does not want that with me. Stupid rejection is the reason. But I shall get past this too!
ReplyDeleteI am an attractive woman and their is nothing more annoying then some random guy on the street, store, gym etc approaching you. I only say yes to men where an attraction was "built up" by regular contact with a guy. I'm turned off by strange men hitting on me....even if their good looking
ReplyDeleteI for some reason think you are a liar. No woman finds getting approached annoying unless she is not a "real" woman. You only get annoyed when unattractive men approach you.
DeleteI don't think she is lying. It depends on the kind of attention. Creepy attention is never good, regardless of who it comes from. It feels shallow if a stranger approaches you based on your looks when they don't even know if you're single and they don't know anything about you. I have been approached by men who were complete strangers before when walking along the street and I find it a bit unsettling. Being approached in bars by men you don't know is different because it's a socially conducive atmosphere. I don't mind random approaches in general if it's not obvious from the outset that the guy is making a bee line for you.
DeleteNo woman can rely on random attention from anyone worthwhile so I go about my day completely unconcerned about whether some guy is checking me out or not. I respect men who don't get extremely flirtatious with women who are perfect strangers in settings which don't call for it.
As a no-nonsense man of 58, it has always been clear to me that most women hate the random guy out of the blue hitting on them. I have always refrained from the practice that I find just plain awkward and embarrassing if you think about it. Dating requires subtlety, some work, right timing, and it has to work both ways. It's as simple as that! Appreciate the honesty.
Deletewell the thing is that enough women ARE open to being approached by strangers that men will continue to do it. it works pretty frequently if you do it right. and if you are a hot woman, i suppose that's just a fact of life you're going to have to live with. i'm sure there are a lot of ugly girls who wouldn't mind having your "problem". or just wait a few years. it'll happen less and less.
DeleteWomen HATE being approached , so the vast majority of men give them ZERO attention ...this is food for thought. http://edumckaytion.com/blog/men-notice-women-anymore/ . Men should respect women's boundaries though , approaching whilst she is going about her business is really socially inappropriate. There are lots of women that flat out despise men too & view us as the lowest form of life.
DeleteGetting back into the dating game after my divorce. What I do to get over my rejection-anxiety (a.k.a. my narcissicm a.k.a. my lack of humor) is to keep in mind that as a girl I have to kiss a number of frogs before one turns into a prince again. (And, vice versa, a guy frog will have to be kissed by a number of princesses before he feels like turning into a prince, of course). So in my mind's eye there's this cartoon-like line-up of frogs, and I am kissing them once, sometimes twice, and sometimes I spend too much time waiting for the transformation, but when they continue to be just a frog I put them down. Rib-itt to you too, dude. Move over, hehehe.
ReplyDelete>> I respect men who don't get extremely flirtatious with women who are perfect strangers in settings which don't call for it
ReplyDeleteMen's problem is: there are close to zero non-bar situations which "call for it"
Furthermore, cold approaches do work ==sometimes==. So we try them.
Are you willing to create opportunities for men to approach you? Then stop whining about men choosing the time/location. If you're too lazy to grow your own garden, you don't have any right to whine about mediocre supermarket tomatos
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There are some misunderstandings. Girls who DO approach are not always desparate or crazy. As a matter of fact due to feminism men and women expect more women/girls to appraoch men. And this is a good thing becuase the of rejection will huert a man a lot.
ReplyDeleteYour theiry about women facing rejection less than men is not completely right, women face rejections less true but the intensity is far less than for men. This is becuae women will "screen" aman in the beginning therefore making sure that he will commit or not.
The author syas:
While women typically get rejected when a man walks away after an initial encounter or date
True but this rejection isn't that stingy compared to the rejections men get. Women get less rejections and the pain is also less. That's the truth. It is nice to think it is equal but that is not the truth. Life is not fair deal with it.
Women approaching men is thus good and will lead to more happy relationships.
And men not only get the initial upfront rejection but they also get the one after a date or two - the women who doesn't turns up to dates, or doesn't return messages. It's a highly well known phenemenon experienced by men called 'flaking'!
DeleteI simply can't agree with the author on almost all points. As one of the commenters above has pointed out, the odds of approach success are different for the sexes; the dice are loaded differently. I don't accept the argument that impact of rejection somehow balances up in intensity between the sexes; the argument is to suggest that everything in nature balances and has symmetry; it doesn't. That there must be yang if there is a yin is poor reasoning. There is an imbalance of power... fact - girls, enjoy it! You have the power of selection. You can have as many or as few partners as you want, you can have as much or as little sex as you want, you can have the relationships you want - most guys are into relationships too.
ReplyDeleteTake by analogy job interviews; it is far more likely for the employer to reject a potential candidate than the other way. It is all about wanting something and the other side having power over it. My prospective employer is not going to be so down heartened if they reject me as if I get rejected for that ideal job, i am the one doing the applying, not hem! However, and not by analogy, women don't sit on the sidelines waiting for potential employers to contact them for a job, for fear of professional rejection. In today's society (for the most part) they face the same odds and seem to be getting themselves employed just fine.
That men almost always have to be the initiators, is current culture. It may change one day but society and tradition are pretty set in their ways so guys are going to have to be the ones doing the initiating, whether they like it or not.
To say that women first approaching men is creepy or desperate is just not true and sounds like an excuse for not taking an emotional risk and perhaps making a mistake or two that would be a valuable life lesson. Now I just know this comment will invite a flurry of responses, I will touch raw nerves with this, but I am sorry girls, an awful lot of guys would be honoured if you approached them and showed what you are made of say by initiating a light conversation.
I just don't buy that women are helpless in initiating dating scenarios and they must wait passively on the sidelines while guys do all the leg work. Get stuck in, be an equal, it is one thing to make yourself look attractive (guys do that too) it is another to make the first move and/or make follow-ups.
I am all for equal rights for women, women leading our governments and industries etc. but I don't buy this leaned helplessness nonsense. "A woman has less direct control over new dating opportunities" - rubbish. I have dated women that put virtually no effort into establishing a relationship, say by picking up the phone, being a little emotionally vulnerable, taking a risk, showing some initiative etc. Many of these are still single a decade on since guys have given up on them. I read on other forums that girls agonise over the 'should I, shouldn't I' stuff without actually discussing the matter through with these guys. Many guys have eventually given up and plugged themselves into Internet pornography; thus 'the demise of guys'.
The whole premise of this argument hinges on the erroneous assumption that women are powerless whereas the opposite is true. Some of them are highly sexually manipulative.
Incidentally, as I am sure you judged, I am male. I am also happily married, kids and a lifetime of dates behind me and I don't have a downer on women.
You are spot on. Unfortunately I feel the author is pandering to the target audience. As in my post below, the portrayed 'rejections' of women are anything but and adhere to the typical passive role that women continue to insist on playing. This apparent unchangeable passivity continues to be portrayed as a negative, but you can bet your last dollar that if it really bothered women, we would be hearing about it, along with the usual unequal pay for work arguments etc. Women keep quiet about this one because they know it gives them hand as long as society continues to encourage men to 'sack up' and make a move and shames them if they don't.
DeleteThank God I'm ugly or else I would have to deal with men using me for sex, crying afterwards, complaining that all men want is sex and so on instead of living the life that I want.
ReplyDeleteI can have a six figure salary job, have kids via sperm donation (legally or illegaly) and many other things without men.
since men don't like ugly, fat fatties like myself they should be glad I am going my own way.
yes im the same as you, we should swith roles lol, im a VERY handsome man who has zero confidence or self esteem and unemployed , if I was a woman and you a man wed both be beating them off with sticks, sad, but I know how you feel, its always sad to hear a woman who is going through what a lot of men are, im a 35 yr old virgin, so I know how you feel !!!
DeleteI see women less attractive than me get boyfriends and I find it hard to get beyond their initial interest which is usually intense. Everyone asks me why I'm single but I don't know myself, my standards aren't too high, I get dates and don't sleep around. Is it a personality issue and what do men find attractive personality wise?
ReplyDeleteMen like women who are fun and easy to be with, and who make them (men) feel good.
DeleteIt may be a personality problem. From what I've heard from guys, basically don't be a PITA. For example, if you're going out for dinner, don't be so picky, i.e. don't want to eat this, that or the other.
DeleteDon't complain all the time, it's too hot, it's too cold, I'm tired, I'm bored, etc. etc.
Don't b%tch and complain if he doesn't text/call you twenty times a day.
I'm not saying let him walk all over you or neglect you, but at the same time don't be a negative nellie, if you know what I mean.
Be a "glass half full" person instead of a "glass half empty" type of person. Smile, find the positives in life, be happy to be alive, make the best out of a bad situation, laugh at yourself. I know it all sounds cliche but think about it - who wants to be around someone who gives off nothing but negative energy all the time?
Hey Andrew,
ReplyDeleteIf a guy approaches a woman in a coffee shop and starts talking to her, is it ok if she invites him to join her for coffee or should she leave it to him to initiate?
I don't care if you've seen women that are less attractive than u get boyfriends. that's not the norm and never will be. and just because they're less attractive than u r doesn't mean they're ugly.
ReplyDeleteand to Joe.....u r wrong. men in general prefer Hot women but sometimes they can be a pain so when men get older they start picking women that have a great personality.
Damned interesting. When I was divorced a few years ago, I took each new dating opportunity much too seriously. Getting rejected really really hurt. A few years later, I have dated many really awesome girls. Have been rejected by 6s and successfully dated 9s. You just have to be unflappable about it. The prevailing wisdom is very true -- as soon as you are either rejected, met with lukewarm enthusiasm, or know the girl's not right for you, delete all her contact info and don't look back. Each relationship makes you better prepared for the next, and leads to a crystal clear understanding if what you really want.
ReplyDelete"While women typically get rejected when a man walks away after an initial encounter or date, men typically get rejected when they approach. A woman has to have the courage to let the man walk away, while a man has to have the balls to approach in the first place. While men have to become confident enough to approach without knowing how a woman will respond, women have to become confident enough to let a man act according to his true feelings for her, without knowing whether he will stay with her or leave."
ReplyDeleteSorry but this is crap and doesn't even make sense. How courageous is it to let a man walk away? It's passive. How is it confidence for a woman to let a man act according to his true feelings? What does that even mean?
How can you call this crap and you don't know what all of this means? Try to at least comprehend first. As a woman who has years of dating experience and am surrounded by other women and men with years of dating experience Andrew is 100% accurate. Perhaps you are young or inexperience or both. There is a reality to this all whether you or anyone else agrees which is irrelevant because what Andrew wrote is not an opinion but a fact. At this point in society and time men for the most part initiate dating while most women wait for men to make the move. There are natural scientific reasons why this occurs and of course there are exceptions to this occurrence. If you have a problem with this natural set up of initiation of mating then take it up with GOD. You would not believe how many women will basically stalk a man who clearly is not interested, which is rejection and she needs the courage to let him go. I have a girlfriend who Initiates a lot of her dating, she is gorgeous but an alcoholic so men respond to her initiation but after they discover she has a substance abuse problem they bail but she calls, drops by the job and wonders why they get angry and treat her bad then next thing you know they are back at her house having sex, she's cooking and treating them like a king then the cycle of no phone calls, texts etc ...She does not have the courage to let them go..it's obvious he's not that into you. I don't initiate and was told not to by my father, how else do you know if a man is really into you, of course there are situations where I initiate because I can clearly see the mans interest but if he is not calling or planning dates like a MAN should its a sign he is not interested. A man has to be a man and a woman a woman ..life is to complicated for women to start being the hunters, we are not wired to be that way and Trust that GOD made it that way for a reason. I have the confidence to allow a man to feel what he feels, if he doesn't like me I don't stalk him or berate him, I knw there are other fish in the sea.
DeleteAll you've proven is how angry you get when someone challenges your position.
Delete"There are natural scientific reasons why this occurs and of course there are exceptions to this occurrence. If you have a problem with this natural set up of initiation of mating then take it up with GOD. "
So which is it - god or science?
"You would not believe how many women will basically stalk a man who clearly is not interested, which is rejection and she needs the courage to let him go. I have a girlfriend who Initiates a lot of her dating,"
So basically you're taking the example of one girlfriend as the basis for saying many women stalk a man. One woman doesn't prove anything. Also there is a difference between stalking, which is creepy and passive and still expecting the man to take charge and directly approaching, which IS taking charge.
"I don't initiate and was told not to by my father, how else do you know if a man is really into you"
I could say the same thing about a woman - how do I know shes interested if she doesn't initiate?
"life is to complicated for women to start being the hunters"
How is life so complicated it prevents women from approaching? Life is complicated for everyone not just women.
Talk about being self absorbed and only seeing the female point of view.
Letting a man leave is passive - it doesn't take guts. Approaching does.
blogster25: Letting a man walk away is difficult for women because it forces them to face the same realization that makes you feel like shit when a girl rejects your approach: "the opposite sex doesn't like me." True, no single person represents the opposite sex completely, which is why one man walking away, or one woman rejecting your approach isn't something you should get upset about. But let it upset us anyway, because we know that, to some extent, any single person's opinion is going to be similar to the other members of their sex.
DeleteKnowing a man doesn't desire them enough to date them is difficult to accept because they infer - rightly or wrongly - that they are not desirable enough to date.
Andrew I take your initial point that it does suck when someone isn't interested, but I could reverse the genders and say the exact same thing. Men also experience this feeling of not hearing back - look across the internet and you will see hundreds of examples of men calling or pursuing women and the woman then flaking or ignoring their messages. By being in the position of 'proposer' the man by definition is bound to experience more of this than the woman who is 'accepter/selector'.
DeleteTo suggest it takes 'guts' for a woman to experience rejection passively is absurd and has no logical basis. If a man walks away, its disappointing it happens, but it hardly takes 'guts'.
'Disappointing' is the more accurate term.
i hate how it has to be like this, i don't see how doing the pursuing, initiating, approaching, asking out, how it gives a guy power and control, women still have the final say you know
ReplyDeleteAlso though, women who are rejected after a period of time, are making a bigger emotional investment in each partner, and experiencing a greater level of pain at each rejection
ReplyDelete"Although she can improve her chances by making herself more attractive, she can't just approach men at will without being seen as crazy or desperate"
ReplyDeleteThis is complete crap and self-perpetuating. It only is if you act crazy or desperate doing so. Men can seem crazy or desperate approaching also.
"This is complete crap and self-perpetuating."
DeleteI agree that it is self-perpetuating, but it isn't crap: the statement I made is true. A woman can't approach men at will without being seen as crazy or desperate. That's how it is.
I get the impression from a few of your comments that you hate the fact that men are the ones who "have to" approach, which - and maybe I am jumping to conclusions here - makes me think you have issues with approaching women.
Approaching women isn't easy. In fact I think it is incredibly difficult. Every time, you are forced to lay your sense of self-worth on the line, and let the woman be the judge. And when she judges you unworthy, it can be a huge blow to your confidence - especially when you are young.
Confronting the difficulty of approaching women is an enormous challenge that most men never step up to meet. They wallow in insecurity with a woman they aren't happy with, because they can't put their pride on the line in order to get something better.
The fact that you struggle with approaching women means you are already already way of the game. You deserve respect for that. But complaining that it is unfair to have to do so won't help you win.
I'd be interested in discussing this further actually. Shoot me an e-mail if you are up for it. therulesrevisited@gmail.com
Delete"woman can't approach men at will without being seen as crazy or desperate. That's how it is."
DeleteSaying 'that's how it is' doesn't actually prove anything. Can you provide specific reasons why? I see it tossed out frequently, but without any substantiation. Women don't have any problem approaching George Clooney, David Beckham etc., but suddenly she's desperate if she approaches Mr Private Citizen? Please. Men can appear desperate also, just as they can appear cool and calm. So can women.
Sorry but you are guessing about my personal situation (and it appears you are also deflecting away from the topic at hand). I am simply talking about it on a logical rational basis. Most of the 'analysis' in dating dynamics would not pass muster in the business world.
What I draw attention to is the rather solipsistic mindset of women - that its all about them and they simply can't see anything other than from their own perspective. I see this time and time again. This can seen in the way women and men typically respond differently to blog posts - women relate the post specifically to their situation and if the topic presented agrees with their situation, they agree with the article. But if it contradicts what happens only in their life, then according to them, it can't be true! Men tend to see the big picture and general trends and are more likely to admit something has a factual basis even if it doesn't correspond with their specific experience. This ultimately reflects in women unable to see or empathise with the male perspective. On your own blog you wrote a good article, trying to get women to empathise with how it feels to approach. Out of 100 comments, 5 women actually empathised, the rest changed the subject or said something like, 'yeah but women have it hard too...". A perfect example of women's inability to see another perspective. Women claiming it takes guts to let a man walking away is absurd - its another example of a female mindset of perpetual victimhood. The attempt to equalise men's and women's relative positions on the rejection issue is absurd and false equivalency. Men face rejection far more often, from initial approach to relationships (women initiate most divorces as you would know). I can break this down to demonstrate and can shoot you an email. But the point being women generally have a much better deal in this aspect of dating (not all aspects but).
Women often complain that when they do approach a man, they get turned down.
ReplyDelete(I wonder what would happen if men went around complaining about being turned down)
The reason is this:
If a woman thinks a man is going to ask her, she will wait as long as it takes - 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or more. The only time they usually ask is when they think he ISN'T going to.
Which means they usually only take initiatives with men who are marginally interested. Which translates to a 'no' answer.
Dated a guy for a few months. He seemed interested. Called, texted, used terms of endearment etc. Another guy whom I had gone out with a few times in the past asked me out again. I didn't want to date two guys at once so I asked the first guy “It’s completely your right to date more than one woman at a time, but I want you to know that I’m looking for an exclusive relationship with the right person. So I just want to find out if we’re on the same page before taking things further.”
ReplyDeleteHe gave a vague response about with his new job it would be tough on a relationship. I haven't heard back since.
Was I wrong? Should I have waited an indefinite amount of time to see if he would initiate something?
Well I'm completely fearless i've approached thousands of women and never had sex with even one. I'm completely self sufficient no amount of rejection will ever even affect me in the slightest. I simply don't care or believe anyone can affect me other than me. However fear is not the only thing standing between you and dating success. As you can see i've done this thousands of times and never had success. I am 6'1 tall, i have a decent face and body, I dress well and I talk confidently. But I really don't care, the way I see it... how can a woman or stranger affect how u feel about yourself? It's nonsense.
ReplyDeleteBut there is more to this than just over coming your fear. A lot of it comes to how your face looks and how you are physically. And I hate to say this but it really feels like it is completely out of your control. Oh well... I tried. If I die alone then so be it, it's not what I chose it was thrust on me.
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ReplyDeleteSubtlety **CLEARLY** is **NOT** your strong suit. I see why you are confused.
DeleteA lot of things happen in our dating lives, and we never quite understand until someone else puts them in writing.
ReplyDeleteThat then becomes our Eureka moment.
Its funny how the men 'below our league' will cry and beg to data us, but the ones we are interested in.. they have this lacadasical attitude which almost shatters our self esteem, (the lower league guys are sure to dust us up)
Rejection isnt ever funny... and the worst part is how subtle it is, and the confusion that follows.
A woman that's uninterested in a man will tell him straight up 'Back off, i'm not interested'
But the men.. OMG, they take you out, treat you the dinners, etc etc.. when knowing deep down they don't want a relationship.. and of course their most common line 'Lets see how it goes...
That is not true. Most women I date don't tell me to back off. Because they're not sure. I guess they're testing me. Eventually I sense that there is a "game" happening and I purposefully send a weird text or something to sabotage my chances. Why? Because I don't play games. I know that I could make the right moves to get me further down the line "score points" but don't you see? That's ridiculous. Usually women don't tell me to f off until I do something really weird. Then I delete all their info and move on. Why? Because I was completely I love with a beautiful girl for 6 years. We lived together for 4, had amazing everything and she let me be a total weirdo without judgement. Women's radars are always on "terror alert" they take the smallest personality defect or idiosyncratic nature and blow it up. I don't want to be with some paranoid game playing socially awkward man-phobe. I want a cool woman who will take any weird things in stride... seeing that it is the heart that beats underneath that counts. This girl will be the one I dedicate myself to. And we will be equal partners in an awesome relationship.
DeleteYou are so right, Sbaby. Men will seemingly string you along and use various excuses to keep you hooked and to manage down your expectations. I think that some men do not want to put in much effort to build a good relationship. They are basically lazy. They say they want a relationship and maybe they do. But they aren't willing to put in much effort. When I find out that a man is only half heartedly putting in effort, I tell him I'm done. He is free to go and try to find a woman who doesn't care if he is lazy and doesn't expect reciprocal respect and love. "Let's see how is goes" is so common!!! If he does not out in effort - run!!!!
ReplyDeleteIt's simple: men need to put in the upfront effort to get women attracted (sex); women need to put in the effort to get a man interested in a committed relationship. If he's not biting, then you're not offering value from his perspective. Simple. Or the cost-benefit is simply lopsided - what you're offering is not worth what's required by you (you're asking for too much).
DeleteHi Andrew!
ReplyDeleteI've just found this site and I like the no-nonsense approach you take. This is a good article, yet there are guys like me who have self-esteem issues that make facing series of rejections unbearable. I'd be grateful if you could address the situation a guy like me is in.
I'm 24. I have been diagnosed with depression which comes from self-loathing. I feel I am ugly and I simply find it absurd to imagine myself walking hand in hand with a beautiful woman, yet I CRAVE them. For this reason, I am afraid to approach them, as any rejection just reinforces my belief that I will never get a woman who I am truly attracted to. This is a devilish circle, and I've been trying to come out of it for years. I'll approach a girl in every 1-2 months, and needless to say, this is not enough to actually get with one. However, I take a rejection or flake an absolute proof of my own undesirability, and will not be able to approach again for weeks.
Do you have any advice for someone like me?
I´m a woman in my latest 30 and I find this blog very interesting even when I did and usually do wrong things to approach men. That appears to be the reason of my failures with men. When I have been the first in initiate contact men went away, when men are interested in me at the begining and I´m not, they continue to be interested untill I change my mind. It´s always the same pattern so I hope to correct it as soon as possible. Thank you
ReplyDeleteFavorite passage: Third paragraph.
ReplyDeleteI would like to just note that women do have some control over meeting guys. A simple and forgotten thing such as a smile and an eye contact can go along way toward making the guy make a move. That's much better than waiting around till some random guy comes up to a girl out of the blue.
ReplyDeleteI have been going through this post and find it interesting,
ReplyDeleteI met this guy 2 years ago, he said he had problems with his wife and she asked for divorce, I rejected him at first and asked him to settle with her, at time flies, we fell in love with each other, he spent most nights with me even when I advise him to go home, he said his wife has not had sex with him over a year and they fight always, I try to talk to him to get her back but he refused.
He works our of the country sometimes 3months away from me but we normally chat and he calls too, suddenly something strange happened,
I was accused of dating his friend which was not true, he heared about it when he was at work from his friends, when he came back, he refused to listen to me when I tried to explain to him, he said he doesn't want to be reminded of what he heared.
We had quarrels over a girl he claimed was his sister, I accused him dating her because of her attitude towards him, then he started the NO CONTACT thing, he stopped calling and texting, even when I text he refused to reply, his friends are just so into his life as they made things worse for us.
I'm now in love and I became too desperate because when he had nothing I fed him and never asked for money to pay my bills, though my intentions were to date him to pay my bills since he is a married man, I just wanted him to heal from his wife's torture but ended up loving him.
A lot of accusations from his friends against me and I later found out that they want us to break up, until one day I could not take it anymore because he was silent, no calls or text, I called him to talk about the way forward, we met and I asked him but his reply got me more angry, he said he needs time to think about our relationship, I left him with that, I started going out with friends and some of his friends too to parties, after a week he called me to ask where I went to, he was upset I went out with his friends, he accused one of his friend of dating me but later he realized it was not true.
2weeks after all this drama a guy came to me to tell that my boyfriend said he has broken up with me, he said he will advise me to move on, I called him to confirm but he was surprised that I heared such, he tried to deny it but later said he gave the guy a stupid answer, I got pissed off and the next day I went to him and told him to live his life, I broke up with him in public and his friends were there.
He then felt bad and told few persons, I felt bad for disgracing him in public, after a week, I called him to meet with him, he accepted, I met him and apologized, he said he has no problem with me but I always disgrace him in public that's what he hates in our relationship, he accepted my apology and we laughed over everything.
The next day he never called and I refuse to call too, then later that evening he called me to meet him at a bar, we sat down and he was already drunk, he told me he really loves me but lots of accusations on me cheating on him and I do disgrace him in public, after a romantic night, he asked for sex and said he has not been himself ever since we broke up, I refused initially but because I'm in love, he had sex, he said he never enjoyed it because we had it outside and it was a fast one, I got angry and asked why he said that to me, he said he ment no harm but he preferred it on the bed in the house not outside, we stayed until 4am together when he left, he said I should call him later.
I called him at noon but he never picked up or returned the call, I have gone through a lot of emotional trauma with him, he plays with me emotions, I loved him despite his marriage issues, he made me love him, now I'm getting worried if he has moved on or if he is just using me. Please advise.
Fuck dating its a game nobody can win!
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