"You want to check out Vin de Syrah?" I asked my brother, as we walked up Fifth Avenue.
"Yeah sounds good. I liked that place last time."
"OK, but I need to piss pretty bad... let me run into Seersucker right here and use the bathroom, then we'll go."
Seersucker is a newer, swankier bar in the Gaslamp area of San Diego and has quickly become a popular place for people in their thirties. The crowd is generally a little classier and more mature than in most of the surrounding bars and nightclubs, but the women are usually older - even though they know how to dress and present themselves well.
Seersucker is a newer, swankier bar in the Gaslamp area of San Diego and has quickly become a popular place for people in their thirties. The crowd is generally a little classier and more mature than in most of the surrounding bars and nightclubs, but the women are usually older - even though they know how to dress and present themselves well.
I knew we'd only be in there a few minutes, but as we walked through the crowd towards the bathroom I couldn't help but to scan the crowd for girls. Two immediately caught my attention. They were both attractive, and although I could tell that they were probably a couple years older than me, one was definitely my type. She had long, black, straight hair and light skin, with dark eyes and a wide smile. More importantly, she was wearing a small, tight cocktail dress and high heels. There was no way I could leave without at least trying to talk to her.
In the bathroom I asked my brother "Did you see those two girls? The dark-haired one had a slamming hot body. She looks a little older than me, but she is gorgeous, and that dress and those heels are ridiculous. I just want to talk to her quickly before we leave."
On the way out I walked over and said hello and started talking to them. They were friendly, and we had a fun conversation. A couple times I took a natural opportunity to look down at the dark-haired woman's body, and I almost had to stop myself from drooling. It was impeccable. I wanted to tear off that tiny dress and handle her small, perfect, frame. After seeing the girls up-close, though, my suspicion about their age was confirmed. When they asked about my brother's and my ages, I asked them how old they were. The one I liked was 29 and her beauty was clearly starting to fade. Five years ago should would have been a ten. That night she was probably about an eight.
Our conversation was interrupted by another guy who wanted to talk to the girls. He had zero game, and the interaction turned awkward quickly. The girls excused themselves to go to the bathroom.
"Never let a girl choose to leave the interaction and then be found waiting for her to come back," I told him, imparting one lesson I'd learned a few times the hard way. "You will look like a chump. Let's go sit at the bar until they come out." And that is what we did.
A few minutes later they walked out of the restrooms. I could tell they were looking around for us where we'd been talking to them earlier. They didn't see us, so they started making motions to leave the bar. As they walked past us on the way to the door, I caught eye contact with them and asked them if they were heading out. I had to get the dark-haired girl's phone number. I knew from how smoothly the conversation went earlier that she would give it to me. I knew that I couldn't date a girl her age, but neither could I resist that body and hair.
We made small talk for a few moments about where they were going next, then they started towards the door again.
"Before you go, let me take your phone number." I said to the dark-haired girl as I pulled out my phone. "I'd like to talk to you again."
The dark-haired girl laughed. "You want to take my number?" she asked, amused. "But you're 28!"
"Yeah, haha, I know. And you are 29. Listen, the only girl I've loved was a year older than me. It can work." I said this - truthfully - as I opened a new contact in my phone, ignoring her resistance - which I assumed was just an attempt to see how serious I was about her. It might be true that I was too young for her, but I knew that wishful thinking prevented most women from actually acknowledging this, so the possibility didn't cross my mind.
At this point, any other girl who had shown as much attraction to me as this girl would have stepped in to look over my shoulder as I put her number into my phone. But this girl's body language didn't include even the slightest motion towards granting my request. She literally laughed it off. I forget now exactly what she said next, but in that moment I realized that she was absolutely serious in her refusal, despite of how playful she was about communicating it. The sum total of her words and body language said "Ha! You must think I am stupid if you think I am going to give my phone number to a guy younger than me. You know as well as I do that it won't go anywhere; don't play dumb. I like you, but let's not be naive here. Goodnight."
As she said "Goodnight," and walked out the door with her friend. I sat there, stunned and confused, as my brother and I watched them walk out the door into the street.
"What the hell was that?" I asked my brother. But the question was rhetorical, because I knew exactly what it was. It was smart.
Related Posts
1. Your Age and Your Attractiveness
2. What Men Think About Older Women
3. Don't Let a Guy Waste Your Most Eligible Years
4. The Advantage of Dating Over 30
Related Posts
1. Your Age and Your Attractiveness
2. What Men Think About Older Women
3. Don't Let a Guy Waste Your Most Eligible Years
4. The Advantage of Dating Over 30
I didn't know a woman being just one year older than he constitutes to being called an OLDER WOMAN. I know of so many relationships were the guy is just one or two years younger. This could have definitely worked to be honest, perhaps your own body language and words screamed " I JUST WANT TO FUCK YOU", or she simply was not into you and you overanalysed the smoothness of the conversation as her being interested. Some women are just friendly full stop
ReplyDeleteI do not think a lot of men think like this in 2013. my brother for example actually likes women older thah him. I am 40yrs old and my boyfriend is 37yrs old.
DeleteNot to mention Asian and Black women on the whole look 10 yrs younger than their actual ages so an Asian or black women at 30yrs can easily look like a 20 yr old both face and body
DeleteDid you consider that she maybe was a bit older than that (29 is a typical age to give if you're 30 or older) and that she genuinely knew she was too old for you?
ReplyDeleteI just find it rare that women turn down a guy on the basis of being one year younger. You might have been 3 months apart or whatever.
That crossed my mind, yes, but only much later (while I was writing the post in fact). Still, I thought it illustrated an important point well.
DeleteIf I hadn't been reading your blog for quite some time now, I'd suspect this post to be trolling... But knowing what I know, I am sincerely puzzled.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying a 29yo is an "older woman" for a 28yo?
Technically, yes, but do you *really* think that? Do most men think that?
I ask because for me +/- 2 years is pretty much "the same age" for adults over 25 or so.
I am saying that, yes. Given that men generally end up with women a few years younger than them, you could almost argue that being the same age as a guy is "too old" - statistically speaking, of course.
DeleteI am not saying that you should ALWAYS rule out younger guys, but that you'd be smarter to have a rule against them completely than to have no rule at all concerning age.
Thanks, Andrew. You make a really good point about the standard age difference in relationships (hadn't thought of that) - your post now makes sense to me.
DeleteI'm not 100% sure what your intent was here. If it's "avoid a schmoozy guy you meet at a bar who is younger than you and just interested in sex," then, righto. If it's directed at 40 year old women who think they look 35, who are only chasing 35 year olds, I get it. Statistically, if you're a woman, you're more likely to end up with a man who is slightly older, but I'm not sure that rejecting someone for being 1 year younger than you categorically is always going to be a good idea. (in the case of this particular woman, perhaps it was a good idea, but that's not my point.) I know several women who are married to men 1-3 years younger. In all cases the woman is both objectively attractive for her age and slightly more attractive than her man. (It is also true for most stable, successful LTRs/ marriages that the woman tends to be slightly more attractive than the man).
ReplyDeleteI'm responding this way because I'm concerned that women will read this and think "I'm 35 and am edging closer to death.. why am I even bothering when I'm competing with 18 year old women?" But you're not competing with them, if you're smart. You're not trying to date 18 year old guys seriously, and you shouldn't be interested in 40 year old men who would rather date an 18 year old than a 35 year old. There's plenty of men who want age appropriate women.. I think if you look good *for your age* you're ahead of the game. Double extra points if you are emotionally stable, feminine, not a pain in the ass, and together financially.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
DeleteAs I said in the comment above, my intent is to point out that a woman is better of completely ruling out all men younger than her, than she is if she ignores mens' ages completely.
Of course the best thing is to judge each case by each case, but statistically speaking, younger men aren't interested in dating older women - even a year older. They have their eyes set on women a few years younger than themselves, so a woman a year older has a 3 or 4 year disadvantage.
Agreed that as you get older, the age matters less.
OMG!!! I am 49 and over the hill, no longer "attractive" I guess I'll have to settle for 65 year old men! LOL
DeleteFrom a woman's perspective she was certainly lying about her age. Not many woman would be overly perplexed by a one year age gap especially when she is as attractive as you describe.
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with the first comment, BUT, not as much with the second. The more attractive a girl is (at that age) the more likely she is to have spent/wasted a LOT of time in her life with guy who just wanted sex, so the more likely she is to filter out guys that aren't interested in dating.
Deleteor, she thought you just weren't cute enough. :D
DeleteThat never happens ;)
DeleteShe was 37 and she knew you weren't serious
DeleteI'm not sure. I mean I have many younger men who actually irritate me with the persistence in which they want to date (I'm in my late twenties also). Personally, I am into the more together guys (who are typically older) but there seems to be many men who don't care about age difference as much as long as the woman appeals to them.
ReplyDeleteI always go a few years older for men, could never imagine dating someone my own age. However you see how early women face the 'time' issue. Not just because looks and fertility goes down, but because the 29 year old you describe would ideally go up to 32-33 (if she even IS 29). IME, the attractive guys who are looking for commitment, find someone around 29-30. You're left with a much smaller pool after that.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was 19, I was seeing a 24 year old guy. I'm 22 now and have been seeing a 26 year old, but he turned out horribly immature (in a way I couldn't predict). I don't want to go for 30 or over now, I think I might be able to do that if I'm single at 25. What do you think is the ideal age difference in your twenties?
If you mean for marriage (the supposed point of dating), id say 3 to 6 years, with the man being older. 30 (man) and 25 or 26 (woman) seems good to me.
DeleteDo you expand the age gap as you get older? So let's say at 29, you'd ideally want a girl who's 24-25. If you're single at 35, would you prefer a 24/25 year old woman as well? (provided she is mature enough).
DeleteI wonder if men usually look for women as young as they can get (legal obviously) IF they are mature enough. Meaning that the only reason a 30 year old would not date a 20 year old is that she is not experienced and has some growing up to do. But if she IS exceptionally mature, he'd want to date her? Or are there other reasons which would make him choose a woman closer to his age?
Yes, you expand the age gap, and yes, I think 30 year old men would date a 20 year old if she were mature enough. That is a BIG "if" though. I've yet to meet any girl ten years younger than myself that I could even come close to meeting on a mental level. I've met one girl that was 7 years younger that came close - close enough, anyway.
DeleteWell, I think the older a woman gets, the smarter she becomes!
ReplyDeleteAnd it doesn't surprise me that at that age she wanted an older man. Most women (who want a relationship/marriage) know by that age that a younger man is not usually as mature/settled in his own skin as they require...
I understand what you are saying Andrew and I appreciate your honesty.
ReplyDeleteBut what can a 30 year old woman do when she's only approached by men in their early twenties? Younger men are shocked when they learn about her age and don't want anything to do with her after that - just as you say. They tell her she's attractive and looks 19-23. That doesn't bother her at all... in fact it's a compliment. But she doesn't want to be with a guy a decade younger then her and vice versa, but with a man in his early thirties. The problem is - men in their thirties only look at her but don't approach.
Any advice?
Do what the girl in the post did - turn them down. Attract guys in their 30s by following the advice in other posts on this blog!
DeleteIf she is only approached by men in their early 20s, it is probably because she is only hanging out at bars frequented by a relatively young clientele.
DeleteYou are nuts. There is nothing wrong with a beautiful interesting 29 yr old woman with you being 28. Id say she sensed YOU were only interested in sex and not dating. So she turned you down.
ReplyDeleteReally Andrew I believe you are looking for a punch-list cutout woman and not a real person. If you are that picky to turn down someone who is potentially only months older. ESP if you saw her as so compelling as you described.
Amen.
DeleteAndrew I hope I still know you when you're in your early 40's and have a totally different perspective on this. A one year age difference used to matter in high school. Over 20, hardly at all. Over 25, almost totally zero.
ReplyDeleteAre you male or female? I am 28 and male. I think about women constantly, so I talk to my friends and acquaintances(many of whom are unlike me) about them and their tastes constantly. I have also seen it happen time and time again that an older women gets dumped by a younger man. I've been the younger man myself many times. It is also common knowledge - well documented in US government marriage data - that men marry younger women frequently. Data from dating websites is even more corroborative.
DeleteAre you sure that you are right about this?
Even if you were - who cares what men think when they are 40? This blog is most relevant to women in their late teens, 20s and some in their 30s. If the men courting them change their minds at 40, it isn't going to be much help to them. They want to know what the men dating (or not dating) them want, not what they MIGHT realize they should have wanted when they turn 40.
But, in light of the first paragraph in my response to your comment, I think you should reconsider whether it is my opinion or yours that is the anomaly.
Andrew is correct and the age gap that men are willing to tolerate increases as men age. Women get to take advantage of their youth and beauty when they are young and men of all ages want them, whereas men their age are generally left on the sidelines when both are in their early-mid 20s. When women are in their early-mid 20s, men their own age would love to date them. However, when both men and women hit their early 30s, the men generally prefer women a couple years younger. When both hit their late 30s, men still generally prefer women in their late 20s-early 30s because they assume that women their own age will either be pregnancy risks or might be used-up sluts desperate to get married. When both men and women hit their mid-40s and older, the age gap between the men and the women they date generally continues to increase.
Delete"the only girl I've loved was a year older than me."
ReplyDeleteDespite this, do you usually go for women a few years younger? I've loved two men and I find myself often going for the same "type" (although the type isn't necessarily a bad choice, it just limits my options).
Or have you actually met younger girls who could have been great for you? If you don't mind saying - how long were you with the woman you 'loved'?
I do normally go for women a few years younger, yes. Especially at my age, when women a year older are starting to show signs of aging and women a few years younger still find me attractive, my focus is always on younger women.
Delete8 months.
A year older starting to show signs of ageing? So 29/30..hmmm, I would have to argue with you there..it depends on the woman..compare a 26 year old Lindsay Lohan to a 30 year old Rachel Bilson and I believe that Mila Kunis is due 29 soon..hey even Rachel McAdams at 33. Ultimately genetic and lifestyle choices dictate...Rachel Bilson, Mila Kunis and Rachel McAdams don't seem particularly high maintenance either.
DeleteDo you mind saying why you broke up if you 'loved' her? How can you be sure that you did?
DeleteMaybe she just didn't like you, because you are an arrogant, patronising tool?! Just a thought.....
ReplyDeleteor maybe she has a boyfriend.
ReplyDeleteLurker/1st time commentor here! I have to agree with Fluffy, if I hadn't been a reader/fan of your blog I would have thought this was a trolling post.
ReplyDeleteI'm 22 and I am most attracted to men 5-10yrs older than myself. Although my ideal age is a 26-27 yr old if a guy 20-23 was as alluring as you described this woman I wouldn't through him away. This is just MY personal opinion so you can take it or leave it. I understand you have your preferences like we all do, but sounds a little extreme.
What is a trolling post?
DeleteYou are young, and have yet to be repeatedly dumped by younger men (unless, you take my advice, in which case you won't date older guys). I suspect this is what happened to this girl, so she learned the hard way what anyone reading this post could learn the easy way.
Hey, I don't want to get into the above debate. Actually there's been a question on my mind and when you said "as I opened a new contact in my phone" I remembered it.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my early 20s. I guess I'm a late bloomer. I've never had a guy "ask for my number" until recently at a party of some mutual friends when a guy I had been talking to for a good portion of the night said he and his buddies were having a barbecue and asked if I was interested. I probably said yeah sure, maybe. He took out his phone and gave it to me and I had no idea if I was supposed to give him my last name too. I didn't want to write "from X's party." I just gave my first name and my number. What do people usually do?
The following is just rambly stuff: he never texted back, which of course was disappointing, but not a huge deal. I think I could have shown more interest, but I was still sort of shy and I didn't know if I was actually into him at the time (he was very good looking in a total jock way which I don't usually go for or I think is out of my league). Clearly, was overthinking that night and still overthinking now. Also probably broke one of your rules since I had a bit more to drink, though I wasn't sloppy. I still am trying to get a hang of this stuff, but reading your website helps for the most part.
Thanks for your response and if you could point me to any specific posts you think could help that'd be awesome too. Thanks!
Funny you ask that. All girls are different in this respect. I used to ask for a last name, but a lot of girls resisted, and I can understand that. I don't usually think less of a girl for not giving it, especially considering how easy it is to find people on the internet these days. Then again, if a girl gives me her last name when I ask for her number, it is a sign of her openness and goodwill. She is the kind of girl that is feminine and assumes the best of everyone - probably because she is a nice person herself. So I suggest you give a last name even if he doesn't ask for it when he hands you his phone.
DeleteI like your question; I think I will make a post about this.
That's interesting. Don't you think though if a girl gave you their last name you could find her on google and facebook and know alot about her (is this a good thing)? Is this really preferable from a women's side? Or is it depending on what it is out there on the internet? Like what if she is a successful businesswoman and everything that comes up online is how successful she is...
DeleteHe's find out all that stuff anyway, you know? I wouldn't worry too much about what he can find/learn online unless it's some false scandal or something, but those are rare instances.
DeleteYou said that the lady's beauty had begun to fade. In what respect? I mean, what are the first signs of ageing that you or other men notice on a woman...what makes you think.."she's a little bit older".
ReplyDeleteThat's a tough one. I think a lot of it has to do with skin, and a woman can do a lot to improve her skin quality pre-emtively, but she needs to do it when she is young, not when she is already in her 30s. Hair thins out with age also, so this is probably part of what tips a man off. Weight usually increases as well.
DeleteOverall, though, there isn't any obvious thing that men look for, it is just a general impression given by the cumulative effect of these kinds of things.
I personally base my estimate of a woman's age primarily off her skin, although it is not always accurate. The skin of younger women generally has greater elasticity and therefore less wrinkles. There are definitely exceptions to the rule as women with a light complexion and who have spent a lot of time in the sun usually have more prominent wrinkles than women the same age who either have darker complexions or didn't spend as much time in the sun. Also, women who drink a lot tend to get less REM sleep and tend to look older than do women who don't drink as much and who have gotten more REM sleep.
DeleteThe most significant difference is that older women look a bit 'harder'. The level of estrogen in the body decreases, your skin will get less soft, and if you want to remain slim, you usually have to build more muscle.
DeleteWhen you're young, you can have a high, firm butt that is also soft. As you get older, you need to replace that fat with muscles to keep it from sagging. When you look at celebrity women around 40 and older, their bodies are often very toned, but more masculine. Their faces will be 'skinnier' as well, as there is less fat under the skin and the fat sack around your cheekbones will drop. The eyelids will also drop, making you look a bit 'tired'.
Although it's important to stay slim, I don't think women should starve themselves and overdo the weight training when they're in their late thirties. Sometimes it's better to keep a few pounds to remain feminine and youthful, rather than getting that Madonna body.
I understand that. At my local gym, the primary frequenters are ladies in their 30s. They are in excellent shape however you can tell by their facial and body skin that they have been baking their skin like a toll house cookie for at least a decade. There is a certain phenomena that I have noticed..where women expose themselves to the sun MORE as they get older to achieve that Louis Vuitton-esque leathered look.
ReplyDeleteThing is many young women do not look that far ahead into the future when they are at their peak because they are enjoying the fruitations of it too much to contemplate a future without their looks. Luckily for me, oddly..because of the acne of my teens I have been diligent with skincare since 17 and am stepping it up a notch exiting my mid twenties. I also think that women should start with an exercise regime young rather than becoming too reliant on their youthful metabolisms..there's a lot to be said for muscle memory. Hair is the trickier area however...once it thins it can be quite difficult to get it back to it's former glory naturally.
It's true that the hair is difficult to save once it's started to thin (as it disappears and you can only supply with extensions), but there is a LOT you can do to save it while you're young. Heat protection spray, keratin treatments etc. I'm lucky as my older sister didn't do any of that and her hair is gone - I observed the damage, and have been taking care of mine.
DeleteI read that 35 is the age when women are really starting to show their age (it's when tanning, smoking etc is really starting to show). If you take care of yourself very well, a 33 year old woman may very well look like she's in her mid/late twenties - a lot of Hollywood celebs are proof of that. It's harder after 35, but you can still look pretty good - take Eva Longoria as an example.
I have been reading this blog and this post is disheartning to women over 30. I still look like I'm 25, I get approached by young men ALL the time, with the expectation of a LTR/ marriage! I take care of myself(excersise, skin treatments etc..).
ReplyDeleteRelish in the person that you are, ladies. Yes, the pool of men narrows, but who cares. Men that aren't superficial won't care about your age, they care about you. So what I'm single at 30+, I've accomplised so much without compromising who I wanted to be. It's only now that I care about having a family, rightfully so. Enjoy your 20's, get your PhD, travel, expereience this magnificent world that we in live. Don't let this type of post question your life choices, I almost did...Then a handsome 28 male asked me out. Date #3 and counting.
Yes exactly. And like me, you can even be 42 and looking more amazing and hot (I can prove it, feel free to ask) than many folks in their 20's, and currently have a high quality 28 y.o. man seriously attracted and considering me for long term.
DeleteAnd, keep the abundance mentality. There are plenty of men out there, and you only want the RIGHT one. Who cares about the ones that don't approach you, or why.
i look MUCH better at my late 20th now than my early 20th. In mt early 20th, I did not have ANY good men come to chase/date me or anything like that~~ now in my late 20th, I feel more feminine and look MUCH BETTER!!
DeleteI think Andrew is talking about majority of women- women like me is indeed exception to the rules, or late boomers.
Anonymous Aug 15, 8.51AM
ReplyDeleteAll of these women are over 30. The dating pool needn't narrow significantly if one puts in the effort.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Urlml9gcPIc/TuONh4r4s6I/AAAAAAAAEOQ/biNh0WFZZ28/s1600/Kelly-Brook-Best-Pictures-.jpg
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article831798.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Una+Healy
http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/le/hollywood_style_awards_2_141111/jaime-king-2011-hollywood-style-awards-sponsored_3609172.jpg
http://d277vln4jzkhhg.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Rachel-Bilson-CW-Network-New-York-upfront-2012.jpg
Kelly Brook (in your first picture) is 32, but I actually think she looks older than that, as do most people I know. She is still attractive of course, they are all attractive, but in a different way.
DeleteI agree that many, many women look like they're in their mid-twenties at 30, which is why I suspect the woman Andrew met was older than she said (since she started to "show her age"). But regardless of what you look like, you cannot change your age. I want to get married in my twenties, and the reason for that is of course related to fertility. And a man looking to have a family and children will think the same way. The older she is, the more time pressure. You cannot escape that.
What if you are 27 and the guy is 25? This guy keeps asking to see me again after a nice first date but I'm not sure if it's clever to pursue a second date.
ReplyDeleteAccept, but tread very carefully.
DeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate your honesty and have found this to be very true on dating websites, as far as what men are "searching for". However, as a 37 year old woman who is attracted mostly to men in their early 30's, I find it EXTREMELY depressing. A lot of men past mid-thirties really let themselves go, too. For the most part, men take less care of their appearance than women. They get fat, bald, let their hair go gray, and dress ugly. I'm not attracted. And thought of being with most dudes in their late 40's (well taken care of, or not) grosses me out.
For the time being (due to genetics and painstaking skin care), I always look about 8 years younger than I am, but that age is obviously going to continue to go up. I'll continue to keep up my appearance in every way I can, but I still ALREADY, am not even in a lot of guys searches, and many men who would've dated me before, now discount me just because of the age. It's really depressing to think about how the age and quality of men I get will continue to get shittier as I get even just a little bit older. I mean I'm ONLY THIRTY-SEVEN. I have a long life ahead of me. It sounds like my only three choices are to a.accept more unattractive and old men as mates, even if I think they're icky, b. let younger guys fuck me and leave me, or c. become a spinster.
I guess my only question to you is: why shouldn't I just shoot myself now?
But you are close to 40 yourself and if being with a 40-something man "grosses you out", even if he takes well care of himself, you've got a problem. I'm 22 and I see attractive men 40+ often, they might not be David Gandy, but they have more personality and success and other personal traits which makes up for their age.
DeleteIf a man is 30-something and good looking, he'll be at his most attractive and he still has a shot with 20 something girls. If he doesn't have children, he might want them, and he obviously wants someone who's fertile. I don't think that's weird at all.
Your primary market is 40-something men, perhaps divorced with children from a previous marriage. If you want a family, those are the men you need to go for - end of.
Attractive men in their early thirties are out of our league and nobody can expect to settle down with someone out of their league.
Read my post below. I'm not even attracted to men that won't date their age, or a little older. They're douches, they're insecure, and they're not quality. Period.
DeleteThink Tom Cruise. Gross, right? I just did a search of women who would be considered "10's" that are around Tom Cruise's age (I even went five years younger!).
http://www.imdb.com/search/name?birth_year=1967
Let's say there was some "law" condemning a man from dating someone more than 5 years younger than him. Can you imagine one of these women going for him? He, of course, could get someone that age, but it wouldn't be a hot, intelligent woman of quality. She would go for someone smarter and with more true confidence. He would need to find a 40-something woman with the naivete of a 20-something. THAT is why DOUCHEY men go younger. They need someone more naive. They are not going to GET the hot women, their age.
"Out of my league"? I just threw up in my mouth. You're putting them on quite the pedestal and giving them quite a bit of power that they haven't earned. If they are the SAME AGE, they are the SAME LEAGUE. We all have the same wrinkled skin.
The only reason men in their early 30's have a shot at younger girls is because younger girls are giving them one. And the only way a dude in his 40's will date someone my age is if I let him. I'm not going to play into that. Especially if they refuse to date women their own age.
I don't want a family. I don't know why you assumed that. You can date men a decade or two older than you, if you're into them. I won't. Because I don't have to. There ARE non-douches out there.
"If they are the SAME AGE, they are the SAME LEAGUE."
DeleteWhere did you get that idea??
"The only reason men in their early 30's have a shot at younger girls is because younger girls are giving them one."
Exactly, because the younger women find them attractive. I don't understand why you are so bitter at what is obviously the natural state of affairs. And even if you argue that it isn't natural (good luck), it is the way things are anyway. Deal with it.
I'm sorry that you'd been hurt by older men, but think twice before you assume that your experience is every woman's experience.
Women don't lower any more in value, as they get older, than men do. If anyone says that, they're a sexist douche. Don't you have sisters? Have they become less valuable people as they've gotten older? Do you think if they're single when they're 30 that they should be relegated to only dating men 35 and older?
DeleteI'm not bitter, and it is not "natural", just because it's your opinion.
I've never been "hurt" by older men. I refuse to date them if their age range is fucked.
I've made peace with all this, since my post. Spend a few hours perusing a dating website sometime, especially in a bigger city. Take a look at the pictures and lifestyles and profiles of the men who only have younger age ranges, with the men who are willing to date older. See which kind of guy you think is more educated, more attractive, higher quality.
I also sent messages to about 20 guys, asking them very nicely why their age ranges were the way they were. I got some great answers that made me feel better. I also congratulated a few different men who had older age ranges, and they said stuff like, "You can congratulate me for having taste and not being blind":). Guys with age ranges like you only help me weed out the douches.:)
"Don't you have sisters? Have they become less valuable people as they've gotten older?"
DeleteNo, but as they get older, they will become less PHYSICALLY attractive - at a rate faster than men of the same age.
"Do you think if they're single when they're 30 that they should be relegated to only dating men 35 and older?"
Yes
Well, I don't know what to say. Good for you and your old-fashioned family.
Delete"No, but as they get older, they will become less PHYSICALLY attractive - at a rate faster than men of the same age."
Sorry, but that is a biological impossibility. Having a vagina does not make your skin age faster than having a penis. Males and females age at the EXACT same rate. Their skin ages at the EXACT same rate. Their bodies age at the EXACT same rate. It's cellular. It's science. The ONLY difference, actually, is that males go bald and women don't.
Saggy skin is saggy skin and grey hair is grey hair. Women's is not any more disgusting than men's. I am as grossed out at looking at it and touching it as you are.
This is an antiquated CULTURAL issue (not physical), and it's changing rapidly. It's for delusional men with low self-esteem, and women who have daddy issues or want a guy with more money. Enjoy.:)
Oh...by the way...here's an answer one of the guys on OkCupid gave me:
DeleteInteresting question, but I can't answer for all men. I think the most obvious answer is guys are probably trying to hang on to their youth as long as they can and maybe we think a younger girl can help with that. Maybe we think a younger girl won't notice that we are immature where an woman our age would call us out on it. Maybe there are guys who just aren't ready to settle down and we fear that all women in their 30s are, so what's the point of dating them. Maybe we're taking revenge on all the girls our age who didn't talk to us or acknowledge us in high school and college because we were shy or socially awkward by not dating them now. Or maybe we all have deep unresolved emotional issues and are simply delusional. It's probably that last one.
Andrew-massive generalizations, people age very differently, I know many peers who looks older/younger or their age, sun exposure/weight gain/general lifestyle and for men, hair quality affect your age. I know men my age who look significantly older than I do.
DeleteSo comparing a woman who takes care of her skin/body to a man who completely lets himself go, you still think that the woman's value has decreased?
Anonymous,
DeleteBiologically woman and men age at the same rate, but because men value looks more than women do, it matters less for men. The OKCupid guy is violating Occam's Razor Principle: the simplest explanation (which he omits) is that younger girls are hotter.
Julia,
It is a generalization, yes. And no, of course a man can age worse than a woman and ruin himself by letting himself go. I am saying that if a man and woman make equal efforts to maintain their looks, and have the same genes, the woman's chances with men will reduce faster than the man's chances with women. This is not unfair or a double standard; it is simply a description of the facts about what men and women want in the opposite sex. If women cared more about a man's looks (or men cared more about a woman's intelligence/power/personality), then the difference wouldn't exist as much.
The guy didn't omit anything. I mentioned the "hotter" issue, in my original question to him. I think this guy is a lot more right on than you'd like to admit.
DeletePlus, a shift is happening, anyway. Cougars in the media have been impressing upon young women for about 10 years, now. Plus, people are being much more open about casual sex, thus BOTH sexes are focusing more on looks.
I just think EVERYBODY needs to start taking better care of their appearance. Then we won't all be so disgusted by having sex with each other.
Anon (12.19am): "Males and females age at the EXACT same rate. Their skin ages at the EXACT same rate. Their bodies age at the EXACT same rate."
DeleteOur bodies age differently on the inside. Women are fertile until around 35, up to 40 with medical assistance. Men are fertile for much longer, until they are practically no longer capable of having sex.
We are biologically wired to be sexually attracted to fertility. ALL the things men look for in women are related to femininity and fertility. Men do get less aesthetically attractive as they get older as well, but on a subconscious level, women will still be attracted as we know he is still able to get you pregnant. What matters to us on a biological level is that he can raise and support a child. The things which are required to that - confidence, success, money, intelligence, life experience - all increase as he gets older.
Other than this, I agree with Andrew's comment above.
Saying over and over again that old men are disgusting, doesn't make most women feel that way. Never mind how you think people should feel, take a look at what they actually feel. MOST women are with men slightly older than they are, MANY date men that are a lot older. So they all have daddy issues then?
"Fertile"? That's because women's bodies carry out the entire reproductive process, where men's merely shoot a seed. It doesn't mean men's bodies are any younger. It just means their bodies contribute practically nothing to the process.
Delete"Confidence, success, money, intelligence, life experience" don't increase in women??? By your attitude, I'm guessing that may be the case with the women who raised you.
Don't speak for all women. I'm not attracted to 60 year old men, just because "they are still able to get you pregnant". It sounds like you're into it. More power to you, I hope you find one. I don't know how old you are, but if "MOST" women have your attitude, you better find one RIGHT now, while you're still "fertile". Most people live to about 80, nowadays. You only have a 10 year pocket of your entire life to be in your 20's (and, according to Andrew in this initial post, even 29 is too old). According to you, men get to enjoy being "attractive" their whole lives. What do you think is going to happen to you if you wind up single in your 40's, if that is the case? 51% of marriages end in divorce so, even if you're married now, odds are at some point when you're older, you won't be. But, if you don't mind geezers, that won't be a problem for you.
I said 29 was too old for a 28 year old. Not too old for anyone.
DeleteAnd the poster (which I had assumed was male) didn't say that "Confidence, success, money, intelligence, life experience" DON'T increase for a woman. He just said that they increase for a man. Perhaps the missing point (though it was implied) is that for a man, those are the things that matter most when it comes to attracting women.
I thought it was definitely a guy too, except it said, "women will still be attracted as *we* know he is still able to get you pregnant". I guess it is a dude.
DeleteIf you ARE a dude, DUDE: I know guys in their very early 40's, on OkCupid, who lie about their age on their profile. I asked them why and they said because no one is terribly interested in dating a dude in his 40's, any more than a woman. You're deluding yourself.
WTF does that mean anyway, Andrew? In your opinion how old does a man have to be for it to be "acceptable" for him to date a 29 year old woman? So, when he's like 35, he can "slum it" with a 29 year old, but only AFTER he gives his damndest at trying to get a girl in her early 20's, because that's what he's secretly most attracted to? What a lucky 29 year old to get such a guy, and oh the lucky girl in her early 20's that "wins" you, Andrew. Although, you better wait until your mid thirties before you try to find her. God forbid you find her now and when you're in your mid thirties, she'll be 29 years old {{shudder}}. You'll be kicking yourself that you didn't wait to try for a bigger age difference. The girl you marry (who is probably about 17, right now) truly is a lucky princess...
OK but here is the thing: women want a man who is strong, confident, powerful, maybe rich, intelligent, etc. A women also want a man who can lead her, be a father to her children, and the protector and provider for the family. Yes, these sentiments were stronger 200 years ago, but they are still dominant today. If you think otherwise, you are paying too much attention to what we are looking forward to and not the way things are NOW.
DeleteAnyway, the point is that by having a few years experience over a woman, a man has more leverage to be what SHE wants. I am not talking about a 40 year old dating a 25 year old. I am talking about a 33 year old dating a 29 year old, or a 29 year old dating a 23 year old - this kind of age difference.
I am not even trying to posit some utopian idea about how the world should be; I am describing the way it is. As the guy/girl/whatever pointed out, men date and marry younger women almost as a rule. Of course there are exceptions; no one is denying that. But to deny that men prefer younger women and that women prefer older men is willful ignorance.
My point in this post is that, given this fact, it is risky (not impossible) for a woman to date a younger guy, and that (as I've said in other comments), a woman is smarter to have a rule against younger men than to have no rule at all concerning age.
A woman is smarter to have no rule at all, rather than a fucked rule about guys ONE YEAR YOUNGER than her. Good christ.
DeleteI reaLly think this is one of the funniest blogs to follow because I can't decide if it's ironically written or if this "Andrew" really is out there and thinks all these things. Regardless it full of humour, intentionally or unintentionally. If americans really work the way that is indicated in posts and comments, no wonder the divorce rate is high and the number of unhappy marriages higher. Doubt many people would bat an eye talking about 1 year age difference though. And if that does matter, they are not people I'd like to hang out with anyhow, not for dates, not for friends.
DeleteYou know what? I've been thinking, and I've just answered my own question (I'm the 37 year old who commented, above). MEN THAT AREN'T ATTRACTED TO WOMEN THEIR OWN AGE ARE NOT ATTRACTIVE!!
ReplyDeletePoint one: 2 weeks ago, I started talking to a very attractive(rare) 42 year old man on Ok Cupid. I was excited by his pics and profile. He liked me and asked me out. I gave him my number and, as we were texting, I perused his profile, more closely. His dating preference was 26 to 38. His HIGHEST age was 4 years younger than him. At least go up to your own age, FOR APPEARANCES. For fucks sake. Women your own age are YOUR PEERS. They went to high school the same years as you. They grew up watching the same shows, knowing the same pop culture references. FOR TWENTY YEARS, they grew up side by side, next to you. These are your sisters. ANYWHO, I was disgusted and no longer attracted, at all. It just seemed so douchebaggy. I told him we weren't going to meet, and didn't talk to him anymore. I noticed, a few days later, that he changed his preferences to 26 to 43. Lame.
Point 2: A week ago, very similar thing, except I met the guy at a bar, and wasn't attracted to him as more than a friend. He asked me out on Facebook and I declined anything more than a friendly drink. Then, I saw HIM on Ok Cupid, and his age range was 24 to 45. He's 44. Plus, he has 2 kids, and is not good looking. Who the fuck does he think he is? So even the hotter 40-something women can't even get an UGLY dude their own age?? I told him I wasn't even going to meet him for a drink, anymore.
Point 3: 3 months ago, I started talking to a 34 year old guy (3 years younger than me) on Ok Cupid. His age range was 25 to 40. He was the best looking, most successful, and awesomest dude, by far (higher caliber). PLUS, he didn't think he was too young to go out with me. We didn't work out for entirely unrelated reasons, but he was still the best one, AND he was younger than those 2 other dudes, who never got in my pants, because of their stupidity, arrogance, and douchery. They are sexless, he is not.
My last boyfriends were 3 and 7 years younger than me. Both educated, tall, highly physically attracted, successful, and had their choice of lots of ladies, and they chose me. That confidence and intelligence is hot.
You're 28 and she was 29???? That's the most fucked up shit I've ever heard and I don't think it's so much that "some older women are smart". She must have smelled your douchey attitude, and knew you wouldn't be into it. Andrew, I do like this website, and appreciate all you've done to help us women, but I used to read this and think you were a catch. Now, even if I was in your age range, I would never be attracted to you. Young people ARE better looking. No doubt. But, it's just too douchey to cancel out your peers.
@Anonymous: You know what? I've been thinking, and I've just answered my own question (I'm the 37 year old who commented, above). MEN THAT AREN'T ATTRACTED TO WOMEN THEIR OWN AGE ARE NOT ATTRACTIVE!!
ReplyDelete"Young people ARE better looking. No doubt. But, it's just too douchey to cancel out your peers"
I'd still categorize 29 as young that's the ironic thing.
You know, I'm really curious about this. I dated someone seriously who was 7 years younger than me, and it did not work out in the end. However, I am Asian, and even though I am a lot older than 20... all across the board, people immediately assume I am in my teens to my very early twenties. I even get hit on by very young teens all of the time. I do think I am an anomaly, but do you think this makes a difference when it comes to dating a younger man? I wouldn't go that much younger again, but one year seems like nothing. So if a woman is aging so well to the point of deception, do you think her age still matters all the same?
ReplyDeleteI've always found men in their 20's immature, boring and average in bed. They think that copying a few tricks from porn websites makes them desirable but frankly,they have no charm, no conversation, neither the seductive confidence that comes with age and experience. When I was in my teens and early 20's I dated men aged 32-38, I married at 25 a 39 year old - hot, sexy,maticulate and successful, amaizing lover. Now I am in my 40's, I've had a few interesting flings with younger men, but still in their 30's and early 40's. So as interesting as your view is,I think that you also must consider that we all are attracted to something different.
ReplyDeleteI just turned 37 and reading these things makes me want to puke in my mouth. I have always been told that i look young. I have an innocent charm about me that helps. I thnks that andrew is a tool. You can sooo tell. When I was 20 I had a 23 year old bf. He was HOT, but very immature and average in bed. He was clueless on what women want.
DeleteWhen I was 23 I dated a 40 year old state trooper. He was HOT and knew what women want in bed. see the difference?
I can't believe you have said that a 29 year old woman is too old for a 28 year old, you seriously have issues. I am 29 and I believe I look my best now, I've always been a dancer, I'm latin, and everyone tells me I look like a 23 year old. Some 22 year olds wish they had my face and body and the maturity and smarts as well. Seriously, some of your posts are interesting but this post is just not true! I agree with some of the comments, for sure this girl sensed that you only wanted sex and that's is why she rejected you!
ReplyDeleteAndrew, judging by this post, I have an unusual problem. I am 21, but seem to be strongly attracted almost exclusively to good-looking younger guys (19-22 being my ideal age range). Is there anything that a girl in my situation can do to promote the success of such relationships/ for these guys to even consider her for a serious relationship, or is she doomed for failure? Thank you for your hugely helpful blog by the way!
ReplyDeleteHang in there a few years; you'll probably grow out of it.
DeleteOr, just go out with whoever you want to go out with, go with the flow and enjoy it, and ignore the views of a stranger on the internet with pretty fucked up views of human relationships. :)
DeleteOr, perhaps instead of bashing the authors opinion you should direct her toward your dating blog that you've also spent an immense amount of time on. You know, the one that is being followed by many, many readers because they're so very interested in your opinion?!
DeleteOh no wait... sorry...
I am 49 and I thank god that Andrew would not find me attractive. I am in excellent shape, can wear just about anything and have a figure that many young women would envy - by the way not all 20 something women have perfect bodies or attractive faces, people vary widely, that goes for men and women.It also depends on lifestyle and genetics. To suggest that women are over the hill once they hit late 20s is ridiculous. I have looked at men my age on dating websites and most look like they are in their late fifties/sixties, unless of course they are actually sixty and are lying.
ReplyDeleteI have decided not to get married again after my divorce because I want to enjoy the rest of my life. Men my age and over who would be willing to marry a woman like me are only after a housekeeper/cook/spermbag or nurse if they have a lot of health problems. Yes, many women let themselves go after marriage but so do a lot of men. I don't find men my age and over attractive at all. On the dating site I often get approached by much younger men. Yes, they do just want sex but that's fine as it's a lot of fun.
I am in a similar position - 48 and getting more attention than ever in my entire life and mainly from young guys . I haven't any intention of re marrying but can't quite take the step of " indulging" myself with these young guys. . Do you ever have relationships with them ? Or is it just a one off?
DeleteI almost always end up with younger men. On paper, that is. In every other aspect we are the same, truly amazes me the people care about a number more than chemistry. And guys at least in Germany, where I currently live, don't get better with age.
ReplyDelete@Ms Spider
Delete"truly amazes me the people care about a number more than chemistry"
the only thing I worry much is it has more possibilities to not end up in marriage...
Exactly. This "rule" is just a way to play the statistics in your favor. It isn't supposed to imply that men can NEVER be happy with older women; it just points out that statistically speaking, it makes sense to not waste your time with younger guys, because they aren't LIKELY to want you.
DeleteHaha, I'm not an older woman, I'm just in most cases slightly older than my dates. And who said I want to get married? I'm quite happy where I am. Have no desire to adjust to someone else, especially in Germany where, statistically, people move a lot less and are less flexible.
DeleteTalking statistics it would be more clever to settle down with a younger man, as women live longer.
(and of course I wouldn't date guys that don't want me? Doesn't that go without saying? But if I'm asked out by an attractive man who clearly is interested and there is chemistry, I'm going to go out with him. I'm not going to ask for a birth certificate!)
ReplyDeleteAndrew, you need to update your appearance posts to reflect your honest opinion that women are more attractive in their early to mid-twenties- and notably less so (according to your above reaction) than in their late twenties, and that skin youthfulness is a large part of attractiveness and highly within one's control! I've read (and not in Cosmopolitan) that about 80% of visible skin aging is photo-aging, that is, due to the sun, and largely UVA rays. Only this summer did labels indicating UVA protection as well as UVB (indicated by SPF... Well, SPF is burning, which is predominantly caused by UVB rays, about 80%, if I recall correctly, which are far less related to photoaging, I might add) become regulated in the USA. And UVA rays don't vary in intensity throughout the year like the "burning" rays do, and go through glass. You might wonder my points. (This isn't flowing logically, I realize)...They're multiple. People have a lot of power to prevent the signs of skin aging, and not only would this make a lot of women happier, but it would probably help in the dating game. Skin quality in your "appearance importance breakdown" (which I read earlier...) seemed very understated in importance- and, with age, understated in power to affect it with behaviour. Though, I think even I understated it compared to you if you find the transition from 24 to 29 able to knock a 10 to an 8, even a pretty 10 with a great body. ... This would surprise other women, if it even surprised me, and if your appearance posts openly communicated this, women might research the (more and more mainstream) information about photoaging. It doesn't take time to have a good skin care routine, but does take some effort and money... But, I think it's worth it :).
ReplyDeleteAlso, 1 year older? 12 months? What about 10 months- would that work? Would 28 have been unattractive? Knowing your particular preference for relative age differences is important, because time is important and should not be wasted, I agree, but for a lot of men, 1 year would not matter. The average difference across marriages might be 1 or 1.5 years (I can't recall precisely), but there will be ample variation around a relatively small average. The average is not 3 years- that would make 1 year in the opposite direction more of a statistical anomoly. ... The benefit to women of tending to consider older, even by a few years, is that they are hotter to older guys. However, a seriously interested, slightly younger man? Come on. The age is a predictor of serious interest, but if the serious interest is there, then what does the age matter? 1year?
Andrew I like alot of your posts but 28 and 29. That could be a few months age difference most likely you guys graduated th same year. I know studies show that men tend to marry girls a few years younger than them, but I think it is nice being with someone the same age. You instantly have things in common with they other person because you have experienced the past at the same time.
ReplyDeleteRead the whole thread, this shit is hilarious. The best is when I stated that men and women who are the same age are in the same league, and he was clearly utterly astounded and baffled, by the very prospect of this notion:
ReplyDelete"WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA?"
lollllllllllll. I could see him falling off his chair, and his face going white, by my disturbing comment. Two people born the same year?? WTF????????!!?!?!?!
Also good are his points about how, while men find women in their early twenties to be the most attractive, the age difference should really only be about four or five years. The thesis there is obviously that even though they're hottest for the youngest ones, it would be embarrassing to marry one, because you'd look like a douche. Despite all your yearnings toward otherwise. Per the "fact" that younger women are hottest, shouldn't ALL men, of any age, be going for them?
The vast majority of women in their early twenties are hot. The best investment is after that point if they remain hot because if they do they are more likely to remain that way.
DeleteI was the hottest at age 21 and age 32. It's around the age of 34/35 that the skin in the face starts sagging. :(
DeleteMen THINK that the girls in their 20-ies are the hottest. And then it turns out that it is the style&attitude they look for, because they frequently are wrong about the age of some women they hit on. Embarrassingly enough the last 3-4 years close to all the guys that are hitting on me seriously are between 5-10 years younger, some even younger than that. The older men (my age) usually give up before getting serious because I am too young. Or so they think.
Delete(Except if they are french or italian, they are trying to charm you regardless)
Also ladies, in case this thread hasn't scared you off dating older men altogether:
ReplyDeleteStudies state that men who marry younger women live longer...but women who marry older or younger die earlier. Women who marry their EXACT same age tend to have the longest healthiest lives. Even though it's in THEIR best interest to go younger, it is not in OUR best interest to go older. ;)
Not to mention their saggy bums!
ReplyDeleteSome women have the kind of beauty where they are DROP DEAD GORGEOUS...but for a very small period of time. Like 19 to 24. And then they become much less attractive than the average woman. I would put Mangelina Jolie, Uma Thurman, Lauren Bacall, in this category. Then some women are super hot when they're way older, like Mary Steenburgen or Sela Ward. A guy should wait til a woman is in her mid thirties to see if she's going to end up being one of those hot ones.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
ReplyDeleteWhile men over 40 can still impregnate (as can many women get pregnant), their sperm is all KINDS of fucked up. Huge rates of schizophrenia, autism... list goes on and on. If women want the healthiest baby, it's best to hook it up with a YOUNG man.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering what happened to you to make you have such dogmatic rules about relationships, especially regarding age?
3 male cousins of mine, all with differing relationship experiences:
Cousin #1: After a series of relationships, getting his heart broken by one girl and not wanting to tie the knot with the others, he finally married at 42, and is glad that he waited to marry the "right one" for him. She is ONE YEAR younger than him. BTW He is good-looking, educated, and could easily be with someone ten years younger.
Cousin #2: Happily married for 22 years to someone 3 YEARS OLDER than him. He is good-looking, stable, and could definitely leave for someone younger than him/his wife if he wanted to, but I am pretty sure at this point they are both committed to being lifelong mates.
Cousin #:3 The habitual player of the bunch, had tons of girls after him back in the day-broke up with "the one that got away" who was a FEW MONTHS older than him to marry someone 4 years younger- this youngin' ultimately cheated on him and left him (while he was still in good shape, too!). He is now 41 and overweight and with someone else who is a few years younger than him, but also overweight. "The one that got away" still looks great (better than the younger woman my cousin is now with) and is now married to a good-looking, in-shape guy who is about the same age as her (she is my friend on Facebook, that's how I know this).
One of my close girlfriends is 35, pretty, educated, has a better body than most 25-year-olds and could pass for younger than a lot of them. She is happily married to someone who is ONE YEAR YOUNGER than her- who is good looking, educated, and very nice. They did not meet until she was 33.
Another good friend of mine is 32, married to someone 3 YEARS YOUNGER who is also handsome, smart and adores her. She also is in great shape, slender and looks better than a lot of 25-year olds out there, even after having a kid!
I could keep going with these but I will stop.
I came across this site somehow via another post I saw on FB. Although I do agree with some of the things you say (especially about women taking care of themselves outwardly and nurturing themselves inwardly, not expecting people to like you just because of your accomplishments), but you seem like someone who won't end up with a quality female for NO OTHER REASON than that you come off as an asshole.
I am not going to go into great detail about myself, but people always ask me if I am at least 8 years younger than what I really am. I take care of myself (am also lucky to have been blessed with good metabolic/youthful genes) -and I am cultivated. There are a LOT of sloppy/overweight/vapid women in their 20's out there (men, too!). I recently broke up with someone because I didn't want to marry him. I believe in holding out for the right person for you, regardless of anyone's age. No one should ever feel like they have to settle.
Personally I'd rather marry someone older who was in great shape despite this "loss of attractiveness with age", instead of a younger hot person who could potentially balloon up in 8-10 years- I have seen plenty of those from people I knew in high school! I'd MUCH rather be someone who was awkward at 18 or 21 and smokin' hot at 32, than smokin' hot at 18 or 21 and fat/boring at 32, mainly because she gave up her whole life for "her man"...have seen plenty of those, too.
I do think though that this 29 year old was probably older than she said she was. But to put someone is out of your dating pool just BECAUSE she is one year older? I suspect that even guys out there who openly admit to liking younger women will still say that this logic is unproductive and immature.
P.S. I also suspect that you write some of these comments on here.
I have never written an anonymous comment on this blog, though I have wondered at times whether or not people were suspicious of that. If I force people to leave their names, less people will comment, and I like the dialogue.
DeleteAnyway, look, I am not saying relationships with older women are impossible. Right now I am dating a girl who is two years older than me. She looks 25 and (unfortunately) acts 25 - I'd prefer that she acted her age and looked 25, but - c'est la vie, right?
One of the best marriages I know is a younger man and an older women by about 3 years. It can happen. As I've commented above, this post is simply saying: you'd be better off having a rule against dating younger men than you would be to date men of any age indiscriminately. I agree that the best thing to do is to judge every case by every case, but that is very difficult and takes a kind of human insight that most women in their 20s don't have. They end up fucked over or wasting their most eligible years because they do what you suggest and simply follow their heart, rather than be discerning. So again: better to have a rule like this against younger men than to whimsically date anyone you are attracted to.
Perhaps I've made the point a little too strongly for some people's taste; but at least it will stick in people's minds and make them think.
Whatever, don't back pedal. You still said that older men are in a higher league than women of their own age. By your rationale, your girlfriend would've been "smart" to turn you down and look for a dude 4 years older than herself. Right now, she's wasting her time with someone "out of her league" who's going to inevitably dump her for her age.
DeleteIf you had been looking for women on a dating website, she wouldn't have even turned up in your search.
WOMEN: It's up to us. If we stop predominantly dating older men, they'll simply no longer have this option. Think of the future you're looking at and decide for yourself. ;)
She would have been smart to turn me down. But that doesn't mean that it CAN'T work out, just that it isn't LIKELY to work out.
DeleteOnly with a douche.
DeleteAny woman on earth would be smarter to have a rule to only date YOUNGER men. If we all did that, our options would be wider after every consecutive break up, and the dating age pool would eventually even out.
...except for the MINOR fact that men don't generally want older women.
DeleteWho gives a shit what they want, if we gained hold of that power, by taking the option away from them? They wouldn't have a choice, and they'd become conditioned to accept it. Men are basically slaves to the vagina, and we do have the option of making choices that will ensure a better selection for us, as we grow older. Most marriages end in divorce, and most relationships end. Most women, as they get older and older, will be single at various points. Any woman would be "smart" to not narrow her options.
DeleteAndrew-there is a lot of truth to your point. I, however, think it's one of those case-by-case issues. For a long time, my rule was to never date a guy who was younger than me. Specifically, he had to be between 5-10 years older than me mainly because I want someone who can take care of me emotionally and I've always wanted a more experienced man (professionally, romantically, etc). Well, a younger guy (2 years younger) pursued the hell out of me and I gave in because I did like him, and I was single. He turned out to be incredibly immature. Very immature in the sense that he was too fixated on sex. I admit that may have been a function of him rather than his age. So I vowed to never date a younger guy. Then a guy came along. He looked older than me, and he was not immature at all. I never asked his age, but hung out with him several times and became very attracted to him. I pretty much had fallen for him. His birthday rolled around in July and he invited me to his birthday party when I found out he was a few years younger than me. I was kind of surprised, not so much about his age, but that I could fall for a younger guy. I think our slight age difference has made me hesitate to fully throw myself at him, but he is an incredible guy, and great guys don't come along often. He meets all of my requirements in my dream guy. Anyway, my point is that while the general age issue can become an issue, lust/like/love trumps that. Of course he and I are within a small age range difference. If he was five years younger than me, I'd hesitate. 2-4 is a safe distance, plus he's not your typical 29-yr old.
Deleteyou people think too much! Love happens, be happy when you find it and embrace it rather than analyzing the crap out of it only to watch it slip away while you think about it.
DeleteAndrew-so when are you planning to break it off with her? Will your reason for breaking it off with her her age? If you know it's going to fail, why get in to it in the first place?
DeleteYes but the reason is not her age.
DeleteCan you please let me know how that process works! Do you have a set date when you'll break it off? If so I'll check back with you for details. Seriously. It just seems interesting that you'd date someone u r not interested in, knowing you will break up with her. Please elaborate.
Delete"Who gives a shit what they want"
DeleteThe feminist indoctrination is strong in this one.
In every marked, the one in demand holds power. Masculine sexuality peaks at 35-45.
But never mind reality.
Listen, feminist, you imagining a world were all females only date younger men, so your prospects would be better is akin to dreaming about how everybody started to hate money and gave it over to you.
"Men are basically slaves to the vagina"
You forgot the "beta" qualifier.
And still you forget the gender reverse, that females are slave to masculine power. Specially feminists.
Everyone should be a feminist.
DeleteAnonymousJanuary 4, 2013 7:17 PM: Do you actually know what 'feminism' means? I for one am for equal rights (both men and women).
Men and women are biologically different, but we should nevertheless be equal and have the same rights.
"Do you actually know what 'feminism' means?"
DeleteI do. Let me show you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UKgNxzSaME
Here is the official version, the SCUM manifesto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto
This was Valerie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOtjnUIns0E
This is what they teach in women studies:
Interviewer: … The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately ten percent of the human race.” What do you think about this statement?
Mary Daly: I think it’s not a bad idea at all. If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore.
Interviewer: Yes. I find myself now thinking that’s a bit shocking.
Mary Daly: Well, it’s shocking that it would be shocking.
(start below video at minute 11)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_iTV3cQFoM
"Any vagina friendly males in the house?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuJJuK7ADk8
Read about the Vagina Monolouge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqv08pNZnEM
Flaws of feminism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TJMMdXr8AY
Failure of Feminism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Nw3zyYpvs
Pay gap myth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow
Feminism has a lot to answer for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU1isJvsTCw
Thanks feminism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jBt9snxvoQ
Why feminism threatens civilization:
http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/node/2
Why feminism suck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8
And for the nice feminists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o-OcTSeVcs
Historical quotes:
http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/LAF_Theme_Articles_13/Excellent_Quotes_107100107.shtml
Are you a rape supporter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geQyrBGS_60
It's only sexist when men do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ
REALLY GREAT INTERVIEW:
#01: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtGwBsKgKs
#02: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsKUzSIZ4P8
#03: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUNiH1TMHw
#04: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiE00oKo2wo
#05: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi0GICUuves
#06: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wir8dli6ZO4
#07: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmmrN91eNWU
#08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G55DaiddZgg
#09: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngttw5uTDfU
#10: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wfPBdEcnIw
#11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkg7jWq59A8
#12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxZk4YmeGg
#13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4-lBpIho48
#14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRXVOh-XZRE
#15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJg3wfFEnek
#16: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5TPyeD0BHg
#17: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSy8oVytrA
#18: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Xeq-0pwNk
#19: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9EO0BNXbrU
"Men and women are biologically different, but we should nevertheless be equal and have the same rights."
DeleteThat is such a stupid notion when you stop and think about it. Tell me any other instance were it holds true.
No really, do.
A feminists dream date:
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_PTxpIjGXE
I am 45, he is 33. He is a very successful entrepreneur and makes a whole lot more than I do, so I am no 'sugar mama', I have always been the prettiest woman in the room and continue to be. My BF pursued me, not the other way around. He told me he saw me across the parking lot of a business he owns and asked himself "who. Is. That?" Tells me how gorgeous I am all the time and is amazed at all of the adventures I've had in my life. Finds women his own age boring and immature. Women his age also were willing to have sex a whole lot sooner than I was. Now that we are in a sexual relationship I can tell you, it's incredible!
ReplyDeleteFive to ten years left until menopause.
DeleteDo you have kids? Him?
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading your post for some time now and I have to say that you come across as a self entitled asshole. Stop dating older women/ asking for their numbers if your only intention is to "waste" their most fertile years.
My advice to women is this: let the guy chase you and listen to your gut. If he's sincere, you will know. If he's like Andrew, then you will get the sense that he only values you superficially. "Rules" get broken all the time. I know, because I just got engaged to a man 4 years younger. I'm 39. If you date with your self esteem intact, you will know when you are being taken for a ride.
Perhaps this older "29" year old woman wasn't rejecting you because she's smart to avoid younger men, but because she senses your true intentions.
Andrew, you write well and your posts are enjoyable reads that reiterate the status quo. However, I can't help but feel that you simply haven't experienced a very strong connection in which you see a person for more that what they have to offer superficially.
I come from a traditional background and getting absolutely no support on my engagement from my family. Will the day ever come when women are seen as more than sex objects? ( which is what I am inferring from your blog).
Being personal? Sure.
DeleteWhy would a man commit to a 39 year old?
How many reproductive years do you have left? What about heightened chance of producing retarded kids?
Lower quality AND quantity? Whats the benefit?
That i get to support your ex's kids?
Sounds like cuckold fetish.
You sound like a winner.
Delete@6pm - you really do sound like a winner. Andrew is an asshole. He sounds like it. A big asshole who probably dates very niave and brainless women who he can manipulate or who are desperate for any man. Not reading this blog anymore.
DeleteMen are single because they are stupid like Andrew. They look for very superficial qualities in women. Like andrew seeking tiny women he can rummage, he probably has a small dick. He then dates women he's not interested in too so that means he dates women who aren't in "his league"... which all means that he will never be satisfied.
Andrew-I like taking advice from credible men lol Can you describe the last 5 women you've dated? Age, height, ethnicity, profession, weight, reason it didn't work out? Include your current girl.
Delete@ 7:05 PM
DeleteWhat i see is females reading a blogg about how men think, and how to improve girl-game.
I dare wager that they don't give a shit about who is writing, as long as it's sound advice that works.
Keep focused on shooting the messenger, it shows the strength of your argument.
"o noes, he exposed me to reality, what an asshole! Quick, ruuuuuuuuuuuuu...."
@7:23 - Not quite. Andrew is jaded. I read the blog for entertainment and would not follow half of his advice. It's raw and harsh, certainly not credible. Messengers could be assholes and not assholes regardless of flawed messages. Andrew happens to be an asshole delivering a flawed message; the best of both worlds lol
Delete@ 7:52 PM
DeleteWhat is the main difference between his message and a sound message?
If you don't like this blog then don't read it. There seems to be a lot of asshole guys reading it. Andrew is trying to do us girls a favour and avoid pricks and I for one am thankful.
Deletepricks like Andrew! If you want to end up in a screwed up realtionship do what Andrew says!
Delete"Will the day ever come when women are seen as more than sex objects?"
ReplyDeleteMen will stop seeing women as sex objects the same day as women stop caring about men having masculine traits.
And who are you kidding, women love to be seen as sex objects, why else would they spend so much time making themselves sexy?
Gender reverse:
Fat lazy guy addicted to porn and MMORPG:
"I don't care about women anymore, all they care about is me having a job and leadership skills"
Hi Andrew, first off I'd like to say that I've really enjoyed most of the posts on your site, but I have to admit the one titled, "some older women are smart" left me a bit perplexed. Especially after reading how you're now with a woman 2 years your senior. I don't mean to judge, but like I said, I'm just a bit confused. How is it you thought that the 29 year old woman you described in your post was too old for you, but that you're now dating a woman who is 2 years your senior? What made you change your mind? Is this a potential LRT or marriage? And is this woman aware of your stance on older women/younger men relationships?
ReplyDeleteI am not dating her anymore. She also looked like a 25 year old, which made me less concerned about her age. I did, however, get the impression that she didn't respect me because I was younger. She essentially told me this at one point. THIS, more than the fact that she was older, was a big problem.
DeleteI didn't get it when I read this post the first time, but I get it now. It is not about the age gap between the man and the woman, it is more about what stage the man and the woman are each at on the life scale/clock/timeline (Andrew can you come up with a better word for me?) For a 28 year old single guy who has never married and has no children, it is highly unlikely that he will want to date and consider marry a woman who is, though marginally older, approaching a phase where she needs to be more selective and diligent in the dating process.
ReplyDeleteI wish I was as smart as the women in this post. Andrew is incredibly wise and perceptive. It is a bit scary to think that he is only 28 and he has been writing this stuff for two years.
Follow-up example: For a woman in her late 30s who's been there, done that, the "marriage + children" package is not as attractive as "high quality companionship" and LTR. It would be unwise for her to be involved with a man three years younger, who has game and has an underlying desire for the M+C package.
DeleteYou got it. Though it IS the age gap in the sense that the age gap is what creates those situations.
DeleteWtFUCK. That could go either way: woman/man or man/woman. Either one could be at one of those stages. Andrew didn't know if the chick he referred to in the post was at the same stage as him or not.
DeleteAndrew is not "incredibly wise and perceptive", in this case. He's incredibly douchey and sexist".
It can go either way but men and women are not the same. The anon right above must live in a world where women do not age and can have healthy pregnancies through their lives.
DeleteI am a lady that turned 55 years old today. I have been guessed at 35 and 39, recently and by people in no way related to me, and men and women guessing. I do exercise, daily, don't smoke, and stay active and take care of myself. I am currently dating a 56 year old man, but am not attracted, because I suspect that he has erectile issues, don't know firsthand, and he acts and looks much older. I am also dating a man a good bit younger, and beleive me, he does not have any erectile problems at all. I can not have children so the marriage and kids thing I could care less about. Women do NOT have the erectile issue to worry about that many older men do, and can enjoy sex well into their senior years with proper foreplay and arousal. Why is this reality often ignored? Not every woman wants to get married, and men older than say 49 a lot of times have trouble performing, which is not something older women have to worry their pretty heads about. And I guarantee you that looks matter to me, in the sense that if a man has allowed himself to develop a beer belly, (again, which would interfere with sexual performance), a negative attitude, and of course, not every older man becomes more powerful, successful, etc., then the claim that older men do not age as fast and are more valuable is laughable. A bill of goods being sold to women, in most cases. Yes, we do not stay fertile as long, but that is where it begins and ends. A woman should NEVER let a man dicate her worth, at any age. Don't fall for those scare tactics designed to keep men the upper hand. I am dating away at 55. Younger and older.
ReplyDeleteLove this. Thank you.
DeleteBest. Comment. Ever. Aaaaaand case closed:).
DeleteThis is great, but all you are saying is "men should like older women." All I am saying is "men don't like older women." We aren't disagreeing here...
DeleteI don't think she's saying men should like older women. I think she's saying that they seem to as she's dating away at 55 with younger and older men. I think that you can say that your opinion, based on your own personal preferences and those that you know, is that most men do not really like older women. But my girlfriend just got engaged with a guy 9 years younger than her, she's 35, and her fiance is 26. And he is way into her than she's into him...and he's gorgeous (as is she). So I can't say I completely agree with you there.
DeleteI am happy to hear that older women can still enjoy dating and life in general. It didn't really occur to me that while reduced or diminished fertility is considered a minus for women, so is reduced sexual performance for men. I understand that there are women who get pregnant way past 40, but just like a 55+ man who can satisfy his woman 3 times a day, they are rare gems and exceptions to the rule.
DeleteIf I date young men, I'm only worried about marriage... not sure can get married with younger men. Age is a matter for me because I believe men will choose women younger than them to be married. But well I can tolerate maximum 4 years younger than me if he is sure want to marry me. I'm just worried he will leave me for younger woman.
Delete@Anonymous on January 19, 2013 at 10:11 PM ---
DeleteA couple of comments and questions on your post.
I have been guessed at 35 and 39, recently and by people in no way related to me, and men and women guessing. I do exercise, daily, don't smoke, and stay active and take care of myself.
Great. Would that everyone did that. Since you think men should value older women, do you (in the interests of equal treatment) do take issue with another poster named "Anonymous" -- there seem to be a lot of them on this thread -- on Sep 01, 2012 at 3:06 PM that (quoting)
And thought of being with most dudes in their late 40's (well taken care of, or not) grosses me out.
Note specifically that they said well taken care of, or not.
Double standard?
Also, you wrote
I am currently dating a 56 year old man, but am not attracted, because I suspect that he has erectile issues, don't know firsthand, and he acts and looks much older. I am also dating a man a good bit younger, and beleive me, he does not have any erectile problems at all.
So it sounds like you are dating a man older than you without sex (even though you don't know of any erectile dysfunction, implying the two of you have never attempted intimacy, or even engaged in enough kissing or foreplay for you to feel his erection pressing into you as your bodies touch, or to note the lack thereof)...while at the same time loudly crowing over the sex you have with a much younger man.
To put it simply, it sounds like you are either cheating on, or lying to, or using the older man. Does he know you are concurrently having sex with another (presumably more virile) man? Is he expecting monogamy, faithfulness, exclusivity, or increasing commitment? (At first blush, it sounds like an approximate analogy to the way a player uses young women by keeping a rotating harem.)
Would you be as charitable towards a 55-year-old man simultaneously pursuing a sexless relationship with a 56-year old woman AND having exciting-enough-to-brag-about sex with a considerably younger woman?
And, for the nonce, you mentioned that erectile dysfunction is not something a 50-something woman has to worry about; but weight gain, hot flashes, vaginal dryness, loss of desire are all possibilities. There's a reason doctors prescribe hormonal replacement therapy as well as Viagra.
Oh, by the way.
You mentioned
I can not have children so the marriage and kids thing I could care less about.
This *is* an issue older women have to deal with; it is one of the differences between younger women and older; and both the women who are getting older, and the men with whom they establish relationships, must consider this if either of them *DOES* wish to have "marriage and kids."
Incidentally, it is irrelevant to this discussion whether you decided to forego children all along by choice, played around without marriage until the choice was taken from you, or your children have left home and you are now post-menopausal. Your advice does not necessarily match either the life stage nor the emotional state of women in their 20s.
Would a typical guy who is lets say 28-35 rather be in a relationship with a very fit and still facially pretty 33 year old or a 25 year old who is 10 lbs over weight? Just based on looks, not internal beauty.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that depends on the 25 year old's face too?
DeleteIf you're 33, I think a 35 year old guy is okay to aim for, but not as young as 28.
I don't know..I'm 36 this year and I'm with a guy who's just turned 28. Haven't heard any complaints yet and I know he likes me.
DeleteI'm not 33 but I will be one day. I'm just projecting into the future. Lets say that the 25 yr old is a 7-8 facially. The person who answered my question addressed the extremes of the men's ages so that is not too helpful.
ReplyDelete10 pounds is not a lot. If you are asking what a man would choose between a younger but less attractive woman and an older but attractive woman, I would like to think men would go for the latter, but the truth is it depends on the man.
DeleteWhen my aunt dated her husband, they were both 32. He was reluctant to propose because her clock was ticking, which meant that they would have to try to conceive right away. He eventually did propose and marry my aunt because she was very attractive with a lot of good qualities. Not sure if this answers your question. I am a gal. :)
Responding to Anohe nymous Jan. 31 704 pm- this is 55 year old lady, and I will refer to myself as K55, just to keep things simple. I have known I could not have children since I was a child, so, no, I did not waste my reproductive years at all. I think that also has always made me very very clear eyed about men. I was married for 11 years, but I have never thought it was that great a deal unless a woman IS looking to have children. I generally love and respect most men, and I would LOVE to find someone age appropriate to date. The difference is that I did not go out LOOKING for a younger man, he and I had known each other for years. I try to keep an open mind about age, and this past summer dated a 58 year old man. But he was very set in his ways and not very energetic and had what I consider an "old" attitude. You notice I have not said a word about looks or appearance, it has more to do with attitude and intelligence. And yes per your comment, sometimes older women do gain weight and have hot flashes and loss of desire. But I have not gained weight, and my hot flashes do not interfere with my love life at all. A mistake I see a lot of young men making, is in seeing a "hot" young gal and assuming that if she looks sexy, she IS sexy. Looking sexy and being sensual and enjoying sex is entirely two different things. Some sexy LOOKING gals know they need to present themselves that way, but really don't care about or enjoy sex that much. The 56 year old man and I are casually dating right now, no committment implied on either of our part, and he has not even tried to hold my hand after 3 months of dating. When I questioned whether he found me attractive, he said that was absolutely did find me attractive and he was trying not to "run me off" by being too forward. At that time, it had been several years that I had been without sex, and he said that it had been way longer for him. We have kissed since then, but that is why I suspect that maybe he has performance issues. No judgement, just observation. The younger man and I have spent a lot of time together over the past year, and only recently became intimate. I have recently spent time with a 3rd man who is 47 years old. also. I do not misrepresent myself, and each man knows i am dating others and I assume that they are as well. And until a man and I are exclusive, my sex life is none of their business and vice versa. I am not "crowing" about my sex life with the younger man, and, unlike some older men with much younger women, I know that he is not a good bet to have a future with. But for right now, I know that he cares about me as a person, and I do not feel used. I would love to find an older version of him. I was just being honest about the performance issues some older men face. Nature is usually non disxcriminating, and just as women lose their reproductive powers, some men lose their performance quality. Not being harsh, it is what it is. I like and appreciate men of all ages. But not fair to single out women as the only ones to age.
ReplyDeleteAnd in the particular area I live in, men in their 50's have been hardest hit with the economy, so I know of many men that age that not only have not increased in wealth/power, but are living with their mothers and are unemployed. I have been fortunate and hard working enough to always have been able to support myself, so never needed a man to support me or make a baby with. I do know of quite a few gals my age like me who are self supporting and almost HAVE to date younger men in order to be with a man who is also self supporting. Not a hater, just stating facts. K55
Dear K55, thank you so much for sharing with us your experience and insights. You must be quite hot to be dating several men at the time. What's your secret? :)
DeleteMy mother's aunt (who died five years ago aged 83) was married to a man 10 years younger. She said men age quicker in their behaviour and become more stuck in their ways and they don't want to change and develop. For women it's different. We often want to continue to change and develop throughout life.
DeleteSo when the husband died, she said 'Actually, I should have married someone 20 years younger.' :-D
Haha. Did they have a good marriage?
DeleteAs far as I know, yes.
DeleteThanks, Honey, for the compliment, but no I do not consider myself as hot, probably average, and been told that I am cute, but I think it may be more that I have a zest for life, and the most important thing in my opinion, is to keep complaining to a minimum. I work with the public and talk to a good cross section of people every day and am constantly surprised by the people who come in complaining and leave still complaining, about life in general and every little health problem in particular, and wonder why noone considers them fascinating or enjoys their company. I think being fun to be around is a biggie. And while we are keeping it real, even though I do not do casual sex at all, I do greatly enjoy sex with a caring safe partner. So many women my age have told me they could care less if they ever have it again. I don't understand that. My knees hurt, too, but I still ride my bike every chance I get, and hang around younger people a good bit and learn a lot from them. We are all getting older at the same rate, the only difference being taking care of yourself slows it down somewhat. So we should all give each other a little break on the harsh ageism. Everybody will get there soon enough, if they are lucky, and karma is a bitch. And while I have learned a lot from this site and will continue to be a regular reader, I have found when men get out of their 20's/ early 30's, the good ones mature out of thr hotter/younger notches mindset and stop allowing their ego to control them. Those are the ones, the needles in a haystack, that are the real prizes. The young man I see is like that, compassionate, sincere, caring, definitely not a "player;, got mad skills at fixin cars, and my wish it that every woman out there gets to meet a man like this at least once in their lifetime. But I am not fooling myself, or allowing my ego to fool him, as I do know that he would be better off in the near future with a young gal who can have his children. But in the meantime, his attitude beats all of the other men's by a mile. Did you notice, I never say whether he is "hot" or not ?Who cares? That is NOT the most important thing. His personality makes him attractive either way! From K55
ReplyDeleteAndrew-I've read that you advise older women to turn down younger men who pursue them, and while I'm not naive and I do know that there are younger men who try to game older women for the sole purpose of getting laid and nothing else, I also know of many older women/younger men ltrs and marriages that are successful and quite happy. So in the event that a younger man pursuing an older woman is actually interested in more than just sex, and oh I don't know, actually likes and cares for the older woman he's pursuing, than wouldn't it be a disservice to both him and herself to deny themselves a chance at happiness? I know some people might think that this is naive, and I'm not saying that these women should just jump into a relationship with a younger man before knowing and being completely aware of his intentions, what I'm just trying to say is that risk is pretty much inevitable with anything worthwhile,(including relationships involving younger women with older men,) and that a woman being with an older man does not necessarily guard her against heartbreak, betrayal, and being played. There's mature younger men beyond their years, and older men who still still have the mentality and mindset of adolescents.
ReplyDeleteEven in Hollywood, of all places, where relationships amd marriage don't exactly have the best track record, there exists high profile marriages between rich, famous, handsome, high status younger men who are married to women several years to over a decade older.
Some of these couples include;
Chris Hemsworth, 29 and Elsa Pataky, 36, married and parents to a daughter.
James McAvoy, 33 and Anne-Marie Duff, 42, married and parents to a son.
Shakira, 36 and partner Gerald Pique, 26, together and parents to a son.
Bart Freundlich, 43 and Julianne Moore, 52, together for 17 years, married for 10, and parents to two children.
Hugh Jackman, 44 and Debora-Lee Furness, 57, married for 17 years and parents to two adopted children.
All these men could have easily been married to much younger women if they had wanted, yet they married/are with, and have stayed with, women who are several years to over a decade older than themselves. Granted, their wives/partners are all beautiful and famous, but for a lot of men, even beauty does not outweigh youth, but here you see several marriages/relationships where this common notion seems to be disproved.
I'm not saying that younger men should all date/be attracted to older women. And if they prefer younger women, that's fair enough and completely their choice, but what I'm not too clear about is why some people (not just referring to you, but also to those who might share similar views) would advise against it if age is not an issue for the OW/YM couple? And yes, maybe these types of relationships are the exceptions and not the norm, but how do you know that the people who you advise against it, will not be the exceptions? I'll admit there are some valid reasons as to why OW/YM relationships can be challenging, but if two consenting legal age adults have carefully considered these issues/challenges and understand what they're up against, then why would others be so bent on opposing something that brings them happiness and love? I don't mean to sound all cliche and fluffy, nor do I claim to know everything and have all the answers, I guess I'm just trying to better understand the opposing side.
You can peg your dating rules to the exceptions or to the norm. It's your call. Just don't be disappointed when you find out that your younger boyfriend isn't one of those exceptions.
DeleteAgreed. I never believed that I could be liked by young man but when I met someone younger than me, I now believe. I just regretted I refused to accept him only because of his young age. The thing is I think there is no future for us for marriage. But I've never known about marriage thing between us cause the relationship even never happened because I stopped him when it hadn't started yet. I liked him very much.
ReplyDeleteI just regret it. So my advice is never underestimate young men. They don't just pursue older women only for sex or fun. They also have heart and mature enough to be couple.
I dated a much younger guy, and we fell in love. Just as Andrew says about all men having different taste, there are some men who differ from Andrew, and genuinely like older women. I've also noticed that guys who have gone through something that made them have to grow up faster, seem to be partial to dating older women in terms of preference. I did not accept the young man at first either, but I did give in. Statistically, as long as a man is 25 it is a safer bet to date him. There is a very high divorce rate when marrying a man who is under the age of 25, but as long as he's 25 there isn't a significant difference from 25-35 at all. Just keep your wits about you.
DeleteAnd women live longer than men so by falling for and staying with a younger man you are more likely to have a long life together, with an older man you are far more likely to be left in the end. So it really shouldn't be a problem. It's just society that created these strange "rules" about age.
DeleteD.A
You can peg your dating rules to the exceptions or to the norm. It's your call. Just don't be disappointed when you find out that your younger boyfriend isn't one of those exceptions.
DeleteAndrew- It's actually not about trying to "peg" my dating rules to the exceptions, norms, or anything else. It's about assessing potential mates on an individual and case by case basis that takes into account their character and level of maturity; not on generalizations based on their chronological age, race, religion, looks or anything else.
DeleteIn response to your warning about not being disappointed if the "younger boyfriend isn't one of those exceptions," I just have to say that when it comes to love and relationships, nothing is guaranteed, even when the man is older and the woman is younger. So if by chance I were to date a younger man (and just to clarify,I never actually said that I had a younger boyfriend, I was just talking about the topic in general) and he doesn't turn out to be one of the exceptions, I would be prepared to deal with that. I would rather take that chance then live with regret and spend the rest of my life wondering, what if? Heartbreak is heartbreak, and it's going to hurt regardless of the guy's age, race, religion, etc.How would it be any different than if an older man or one my age were to break up with me? Yeah, I suppose if the younger guy were really an @ss, he might make some moronic comments directed towards my age, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing I wouldn't be able to handle; no different than if I were to be criticized or put down by a man my age or older for any other aspect of myself that he might deem (whether rightfully so or not) as unacceptable. I don't think I can control the outcome of any relationship. All I can do is be careful, take things slowly and not jump into anything before being completely aware of a potential partner's intentions. But really, isn't that a good approach for anyone entering any kind of relationship; regardless of age difference? Isn't it worthwhile for anyone to be careful with their heart, body and emotions before making any kind of commitment?
Anonymous on February 08, 2013 at 1:57 a.m. said it very well when she commented, "Just keep your wits about you." I agree with her. An older woman considering a relationship with a younger man should be conscious and tread carefully, but I believe that consciousness may also coexist with remaining open to the possibility of love. Even if that love may come in a form not usually dictated by society.
Having said all that, I really appreciate you keeping my comment posted, even though it does not align with your own views. Thank you and keep up all the great work. I may not agree with everything in all your posts, but I still enjoy reading them, and have also benefited advice from the advice you've offered in various other posts. Thanks again.
It's not mathematic to say younger man won't choose older woman to be with him in relationship or for marriage. Generally can speak age is a matter but it's not mathematic. If it is a mathematic then there won't be younger man who marries older woman.
ReplyDeleteIt's not fair and it is pathetic if age different sabotage people happiness.
My god people, get off Andrew's back.
ReplyDeleteIf you're the type that always needs a "glass half full" approach on dating... you know, the "lollipops and gumdrops" type of dating advice than perhaps you should look elsewhere... like the self-help section of your local bookstore. If you go there I'm sure you can find the literary equivalent to a pat on the back whilst being told everything is going to be just fine... because by the sounds of it that's what most of you want to get in dating advice.
Ever hear of positive dating affirmations? Well here's one that I think is useful when it comes to dating "be 30% optimistic, and 70% realistic". Oh, I jest... but seriously though people, you need to spend less time being so damn defensive and just appreciate that you are getting the unvarnished opinion of an intelligent 28 year old single guy here... whether or not we like to admit it, there is a lot of truth in what he says.
And of course no one is going to agree with his opinions 100% of the time, but those opinions are his own just as yours are your own. He's not offering up kool-aid people... chill out.
The point of this blog is to offer awareness and acknowledgment of what's really out there in the dating world... no sugarcoating. And brutal honesty may be a hard pill to swallow sometimes, but once you get to certain point in life most people realize being overly optimistic about the opposite sex and their intentions is indeed a treatable affliction.
Anon at Feb 16/13 5:52 AM
DeletePerhaps the people calling Andrew names and insulting him need to be told to "get off his back," but everyone else who you seem to see as being on the "offensive and defensive" is just sharing their perspective and point of view, nothing wrong with that is there?
I for one really appreciate Andrew's posts and much of his helpful advice, but I don't agree with everything he says. That's not because I want "a pat on the back," or because I want to be told that "everything is going to be fine," it's because some of my real life observations and experiences have proven to contradict some of what you say is Andrew's "brutal honesty."
I agree with this.
DeleteWhile I was harsh on Andrew below (disagreeing with his "too young" comment), overall I enjoy his blog. His posts are very insightful and frank about what men think.
Wow, obviously this was an excellent topic. I am 55 , was married at 20, divorced at 47. To say learning curve in the dating world has been sharpe is an understatement. I have learned "Dating Rules" the hard way which most unfortunate . Andrew suggested I watch " the shadowlands " a beautiful love story . It listed my spirits for a short while but now after reading these posts I really don't have much hope for my biggest desire a wonderful relationship. HRT and erectile difficulties are hard to face and for me intimacy would have to be in my dream of the relationship " to die for"!
ReplyDeleteI agree date in your age range. I wasted my years from 47 to 55 with younger men who liked me but who look at reality much better than me "following my heart".
I have yet to lay my eyes upon an attractive 60 year 0ld. Most wouldn't be able to find this blog, use a computer of any kind, be able to exercise 6 out of 7 days and able to laugh and joke. Very unattractive!
Set rules ladies and stick to them.
Andrew-I think you once made a comment about how a very attractive woman still single in her late 20s is suspect. However, a very attractive woman in her late 20s still single might be for some valid reasons. Like if she'll only marry from her faith or culture and if she lives in area where the percentage of mates she would consider is low or even non-existent, then it can be challenging for her to meet someone.
ReplyDeleteIt might be true that I was too young for her
ReplyDeleteWow. That's absolutely ridiculous! You are just ONE year younger than her, that's not much of an age difference. The gulf between you is all in your head!
She didn't give you her number because she correctly knew your type. She could tell you were a player who routinely chased younger girls and never consider seriously dating anyone your age or above. Clearly, she made the right call!
I'm sure she doesn't rule out ALL 28 years olds. A guy who was serious-minded and gave off more than "I just want to f*ck you" vibes would have gotten her digits and actual consideration.
Exactly. She didn't give you her number because you we're way below her league. Sorry but I expected more honesty from you in this post, Andrew.
DeleteAnd IMO 29 is still pretty young (this is from a woman in her early 20s)
Pretty funny that you think she's too old for you and you're only a year apart. Honey, that ain't shit.
ReplyDeleteThis post is absolutely ludicrous.Good for her for being intuitive enough to not waste her time on you.Honestly,there isn't much of a point to this entry you have written.
ReplyDeleteI have a different angle on this post. I am 29, and all my ex-boyfriends, except my current one, have been 1-3 years younger than me. I was the one to end all my prior relationships.
ReplyDeleteI'm constantly being told I don't look my age, constantly being carded in bars or while buying alcohol at the grocery store. At least once a day one of my patients will ask me if I'm old enough to be a dentist. Even the ones in high school tell me I only look slightly older than them.
A couple of my ex-boyfriends wanted to marry me; the problem was not their feelings toward me, but their feelings about themselves and where they were in life at that time compared to me. I found that even though these younger guys wanted to date and/or marry me, they were very self-conscious about themselves and their ability to provide for me as a man. While I maybe could have waited several years for their careers/confidence to grow, their insecurities, subsequent neediness and constant need to prove themselves were deal breakers for me. And who knows if those insecurities would ever change as the age difference may have always caused them to view themselves as behind me career-wise.
Yes, many women should be careful about dating younger men for the reasons you listed, but also because they'll be giving up a partner with greater confidence and stability that comes with more life experience. So even if you're the exception and look young, like me(I can thanks my Asian half for the good genes), and often get hit on by younger men who actually want to date you or more, you still have to be aware if their status in life matches up with yours. You might look younger than them, but they may always consciously or subconsciously feel in your shadow. You can thank society's expectations of men for that.
I agree with this, and I think you will find that I make the same point in the post What Men Think About Your Intelligence
Delete@Emily and @ Andrew
DeleteA lot of really good points in your post Emily. I'm also 29 and up until recently, I believed that younger looking women had an easier time dating younger men, but it's about so much more than just how young she looks, which is why these relationships can be so challenging, even if the older woman looks younger than the younger man. And even if both people are over the age of 25.
I
I know that younger men, like in their early 20s are open to dating women their age, but at what point do men start looking for 5-10 year age differences?
DeleteYou hit the nail on the head. The younger man has to feel like a man with the older woman. It can work if she is extremely feminine, more feminine than most women...But this is the biggest obstacle I faced in my relationship with a younger man. Hard to get around. My guy was 7 years younger though. And our friends are just pretty much a different generation.
DeleteI used to think that men who were so hung on age and looks were just shallow, but then I realized that the male desire for female youth and beauty, is roughly equivalent to female desire for male dominance and status. Although a woman could marry and come to love a man who is not as tall, successful and confident as she would have liked, she is likely to feel less than fulfilled if she feels he is lacking in these areas. Likewise, a man could marry and come to love a woman who is not as attractive, slim and young as he had hoped for, but he too would likely feel less than fulfilled is he feels that she is lacking in these areas. I once read another poster's comment who said something like, "men are hard-wired to want what they want, just like women are hard-wired to want what they want." While it might come across as sexist for a man to seem so caught up with a woman's youth and looks, how is it really that different than a woman who seems to be so caught up with a man's height, status, and and dominance?
ReplyDeleteI don't want a guy who is too tall and his status isn't that important. I prefer a guy who is a little bit more dominant but a lot has to do with it making him feel good as well.
ReplyDeleteThe guy I'm seeing now is 8 years younger than me and he loves me. He doesn't have a high status job (still earns fairly well) and a lot of people think he is gay.
Why am I with him? He's attractive (not amazing looking), we have many things in common and he is a good man. He treats me right. I love him.
I think we have a promising future.
Imma summarize this entire thread for you, in case you don't feel like reading it:
ReplyDeleteAndrew's a douche.
Andrew-what's your take on Jillian Harris? She was on the Bachelor and Bachelorette and both times fell in love with men who were older than her, only to have her heart broken. Now, she's with Canadian professional snowboarder Justin Passutto, who happens to be about 8 or 9 years her junior, and both seem to very much in love in happy. No. I'm not attributing the success or failure of relationships based on age, but rather to make a point that it can work or not work either way.Just because a man is older, doesn't mean he'll treat his younger wife/gf better and remain faithful. Just because a man is younger, doesn't mean he'll mistreat his older wife/gf and cheat on her.
ReplyDeleteHere is Jillian's website, I don't know her but she seems like an exceptional woman. http://jillianharris.com/blog/post
OMG BARF. Here I was excited about your attraction to this older woman and she's all of 29?????? And if you were 28 at the time you were actually LESS than a year younger than her. And "her beauty was starting to fade"? At a maximum of 11 months older?
ReplyDeleteAnd if the woman wouldn't "give a number to a younger guy" after talking to him all evening and enjoying it, then she is nearly equally an idiot.
Definitely sounds like douchey, shallow Southern California and I thank God I don't live there. It is not in any way representative of the real world.
My last boyfriend was 2 years older than me, but that is the exception. Other boyfriends have been 10-12 years younger. and my lovers are from 12-17 years younger. They have initiated the connection every time. The amazing guy I'm currently seeing is 8 years younger. Age has never been a limitation for any of these relationships.
Ladies, not all men are total douches like this. Ditch this blog and read Susan Winter; she's done research on older women/younger men with hundreds of couples - if younger guys are into you, this will totally open your eyes. www.susanwinter.net
Angelica at Yahoo Answers asks: Why are young men ogling me?
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I am a woman in her mid-30s and decent looking. Decent, not drop-dead gorgeous by any means. Anyways, I have noticed younger men (like early 20s and even younger) checkin me out lookin at me like the wanna take a bite or something! In HS I was not the one these young, hot guys would typically chase after, so why am I getting this attention now?!
Of course I’m happy, but I’m also a little confused. Please help me…
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They see you as in their league so they are more bold in checking you out than they would be with a woman who wasn’t in their league. You are at the intersection of the male and female curves for sexual attractiveness. Young women are the rockstars of the dating world, while young men are fairly low in the pecking order. As women age their attractiveness declines, while as men age their attractiveness tends to increase until around their mid 30s (where it starts to decline as well). As your attractiveness has declined, you now find yourself roughly at par with late teens/early twenties young men. See the article from OK Cupid linked in the sources for data on how age impacts attractiveness for men and women.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Au9Ot7tLliyB3nOx.nfiKD7sy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20130712091047AAnfyOs
DeleteAndrew, this post makes me think you're a black man, likely African American. Am I right?
ReplyDeleteOk, Andrew, I've very much enjoyed your posts and have shared your blog with my female friends. I also live in San Diego and it's fun to hear you mention all the places that I enjoy going to as well like Seersucker and Vin De Syrah. However this post seriously made me roll my eyes and question your outlook on women and a potential ageism issue!
ReplyDeleteI'm like the woman you described, small frame and long dark hair. Yes I do get hit on quite a bit by significantly younger men (I'm in my late 30s), that had I been a teenage mom, I could indeed be their mother! Yikes! That being said, I have never lied about my age and I have had men 10 plus years my junior declare their love for me, desire to have children with me, introduce me to their close circle of friends and immediate family. I've had them take me on vacations and "show me off" if you will. I do look very good for my age, and am in better shape than most women in their 20s (and I'm so not trying to sound vain, honestly) but it keeps coming down to the fact that age is JUST a number. If a woman takes care of themselves, etc, she still has good stock. Now I question you because how could you be un attracted to a woman in her TWENTIES? That's just insane and she was one year older than you? I have several happily married friends where the man is 2-5 years younger than the woman and they have children and are very good together. Surely you wrote about the "old lady at 29" and questioned what in the world you were thinking. Anyway, I broke most of these relationships off as I needed more. Yes there were a couple where I was smitten for a bit and indeed he was too young and I too old, but overall, my age has never ever been an issue. I guess I would have liked to hear you say that this is YOUR personal preference.
Kathy, I do believe you're very attractive and look way younger to the extent that many men forget about your age. But that still may not help women like you get men like Andrew to be serious about them if age is truly a HUGE issue in their minds. And, people who look 10-20 years younger as you do are not very common.
DeleteHowever, despite that younger men can be attracted to older gorgeous women who may or may not look younger, the chance of them having a successful LTR is probably below average due to many age related issues other than just "looks". Your breaking most of these kind of relationships already says something about it.
All the above being said, going to the other extreme of ruling out all the men that have interest in you just because they're younger is not smarter either. Sorry Andrew kind of disagree with you here, :).
I am 39 years old and have been with my 32 year old husband 10 years. He worships the ground I walk on. It happens ladies.
ReplyDeleteI read this on another blog. Maybe this could also apply to bed hopping men?
ReplyDeleteThere are people in this world who cannot receive love. They don’t love themselves. They destroy any love they briefly create, and then must “kill off” the other person.
I would suggest that you begin to tune yourself to women who can love (and like themselves). It may not begin as rapid-fire sexual expression. It should have the feeling of sexual excitement intertwined with a healthy balance of ease and friendship. When the human connection has been forged, the sexual expression may dance more easily on the surface.
Wow. All I can say is wow...so many things wrong with this post as some of the comments have pointed out. I find it hard to believe that a 28 yr old man would think of a 29 yr old as an 'older woman' as others have expressed but what really astounds me is the attitudes about looks, age and all the superficial stuff as opposed to things that should really matter. I guess, it depends what you are looking for. Someone to shag or someone to love...the fact that I am in a loving and committed relationship with a man 11 yrs younger than me is really irrelevant here but the point is, if I'd listened to friends, or society I never would have taken him seriously and boy would I have missed out
ReplyDeleteAndrew has clearly pointed out that a woman's equity is strongest when she is in her early twenties. It's true. But in those years you are bombarded with everything from co-workers to dirty old men.
ReplyDeleteWell bring in the embalming fluid; I'm 60. It's a lot different now, of course, but what surprises me is that there is still a market. I took care of my weight, health, intelligence, and you bet there's been a bit of tweaking. It's a bit like being a unicorn, but there was a 60-year old Playboy bunny, too. My point being that I'm way past my expiry date, and I keep going.
In terms of men, horny, useless younger men of indeterminate means are a nuisance. Men of interest are usually +/- ten years. Eliminate the attacheds and the loonies, and the pickings are much smaller. Maybe only 10% of the crowd is turning their heads now, but the point is, they still are. And I can keep doing this until they hit me with a shovel.
I'm no beauty, and in case you didn't notice, I'm far from perfect. But I've got confidence. And another chance.
While I appreciate the support in your comment, I need to point out that I did not actually say that a woman's equity is strongest when she is in her early 20s. In fact, while the plots I made in the post about female age and attractiveness are meant to make a general point and not to be used to pinpoint the exact age at which a woman is most "marketable," the only conclusion you could draw from them is that a woman in her late twenties and early 30s is at her peak.
DeleteI just want to avoid being misquoted.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteYou make the claim throughout this blog that the primary attraction of a woman to a man is youth and beauty, because it's just biology. By that logic, women should only look for rich and/or men with good genes (attractive, masculine, etc). Are you rich? Do you have biologically uber masculine characteristics? If not, you're pretty much screwed too, just like the women that are 29 or older, in your view. It goes both ways. But I'm guessing you wouldn't much like the idea of women only seeking rich, socially dominant, good looking men, because that would put you at a big disadvantage. You write like men are all equally attractive, and women are the desperate ones (unless their hot twentysomethings). Most men are not rich, socially dominant, or very good looking. When women seek out rich men, they are called gold diggers, shallow bitches, etc, yet it is just considered natural when men seek out hot young women. Bullshit. You're a sexist dbag, and I guarantee you do not have nearly the game with women that you think you do, or try to portray in this blog.
"You make the claim throughout this blog that the primary attraction of a woman to a man is youth and beauty, because it's just biology."
DeleteNo, I don't. Beauty is the first thing that attracts a man, and you could say it is the most important in the sense that, without it, the relationship would never start; but beauty is replaced over time by romantic love and then attachment as the "primary" factor in attraction.
I don't think it's true that it would never start. It depends on the individuals. For example, one of my good friends is not a very attractive girl, but since I've known her, she's been in 2 long term relationships. She wasn't single for long, because she has such an awesome personality and is confident. Being confident and loving yourself is the most attractive thing, period. If a woman is hot, a man would be attracted and want to have sex with her, but he wouldn't necessarily want to have a relationship with her.
DeleteI'm just pointing out that it is very unfair and sexist of you to say that a woman of 29 is at such a disadvantage because she's "aging." Would you like it if I said that all men that make less than say, $50,000/ year were at a huge disadvantage, because women really only want the ones that make at least six figures? I mean, I could rule every potential man that didn't have a good enough job, and a relationship would never start. That would be equally as shallow as your argument here. And I bet you're still single.
Oh, and you say you're looking for a smoking hot twentysomething wife, but what I want to know is, what do you have to offer? Are you rich? Socially dominant? Super handsome? What makes you so entitled to this kind of woman? Or are you assuming she won't be as shallow in her assessment of a partner as you?
DeleteBy the way, I am a traditionally beautiful, young woman that has always been considered hot and gorgeous, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that it is not the most important thing in attracting men. Like I said up there, being confident and loving yourself is. I
Delete@ Beth
Delete“You make the claim throughout this blog that the primary attraction of a woman to a man is youth and beauty, because it's just biology. By that logic, women should only look for rich and/or men with good genes (attractive, masculine, etc).”
But women do look for rich (or replace with good job), good-looking, masculine men. All guys know that to do well in dating we have to have a decent job/career and be as attractive and masculine as we can.
Poor men with bad genes really struggle in dating.
“Most men are not rich, socially dominant, or very good looking”
True. And most men don’t get to date beautiful young women. So what’s the problem?
“I don't think it's true that it would never start. It depends on the individuals. For example, one of my good friends is not a very attractive girl, but since I've known her, she's been in 2 long term relationships.”
True: there will always be exceptions. But in blog discussions we have to deal with generalizations – otherwise we would have to discuss millions and millions of individual examples.
And in general, men are attracted by beauty first.
“I'm just pointing out that it is very unfair and sexist of you to say that a woman of 29 is at such a disadvantage because she's "aging”
I agree that it’s unfair. But in dating, the older a woman is, the more of a disadvantage she is at. Dating is unfair. Deal with it.
“Would you like it if I said that all men that make less than say, $50,000/ year were at a huge disadvantage, because women really only want the ones that make at least six figures?”
In dating, a guy who makes six figures has an advantage over a guy who makes €50,000/ year. Again this is unfair and it’s something men have to deal with.
“I mean, I could rule every potential man that didn't have a good enough job, and a relationship would never start.”
You could and many women do, and that is their prerogative. Every individual is entitled to define their own dating parameters.
“you say you're looking for a smoking hot twentysomething wife, but what I want to know is, what do you have to offer? Are you rich? Socially dominant? Super handsome? What makes you so entitled to this kind of woman?”
Nobody is entitled to anything. We can all look for whatever type of partner we want; the question is – what type of partner can we get?
“I am a traditionally beautiful, young woman that has always been considered hot and gorgeous, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that it is not the most important thing in attracting men. Like I said up there, being confident and loving yourself is.”
But you’re confident because you are traditionally beautiful, young, hot and gorgeous. Confidence is based on expectation of future success.
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I don’t know why you take such offence to what seems like basic tenets of dating Beth. No-one is saying that women over 29 are screwed - it’s just that as she gets older she will notice that her peers will want to date younger, therefore, she will have to date older.
However, guys know that women usually prefer to date their peers; so in the end the market-place will level everything out. The cream of the crop will get what they want, and everyone else will have to adjust to reality. And in dating, the cream of the crop are beautiful, young women and rich, handsome, charismatic men.
I agree with you, Thomas. But that's not how Andrew writes. He acts as though all men have the upper hand once a woman is 29 or older. He talks about how important looks are for women, but he doesn't factor in what qualities the man is bringing to the table.
DeleteAlso, I don't think my friend is that much of an exception. I think personality and confidence is probably just as important as looks, unless the people in question are both very superficial. I've known several women that were so confident, even though they weren't the best looking, and they were constantly dating.