Imagine that you go out to dinner on a first date with a guy you met recently. You go to a nice but fairly laid-back restaurant and you really hit it off, almost instantly. The conversation is fluid, he is witty and interesting and he seems genuinely interested in what you have to say. Afterwards you decide to get a drink at a bar down the street from the restaurant. One drink turns into three or four, and as you leave the bar he pulls you to the side of the sidewalk and kisses you. Unlike other guys you've gone on first dates with he is decisive, confident and not awkward.
You walk back to his place together and he invites you in. It is still fairly early, so you accept, but you both agree that it is "just for a little while." You are impressed because his place is really nice - well decorated, but decidedly manly; he has good taste. He kisses you again and you start making out on his couch. You are comfortable with him, and he seems comfortable holding you - you fit well together. Soon his hands move from touching your face to holding your waist and caressing your breasts through your shirt. Before long his hand is down your pants. You are a little drunk so you don't stop him - after all, it feels good, and you are really comfortable with him. But then he starts to unbutton your shirt.
You don't want to have sex with him on the first date, so you know you should stop him; but it is hard to say no - not because you want to have sex with him so badly (though you are actually starting to), but because it seems inappropriate or even unfair to stop him. You don't want to disappoint him and ruin the night, especially when it is just to follow some "rule" your mom taught you. So what do you do? How do you stop him without ruining the end of the date? By the time you've considered what the most tactful way of stopping him would be, he's finished taking off your shirt and bra. Your nipples are in his mouth when you realize that he's actually already unbuttoned your jeans...
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I agree that stopping the guy at this point is going to piss him off. There is no question that your suspicion is right in that regard - in fact it will probably piss him off more than you realize. So what should you do now, and when should you have stopped him? There was never a time when it seemed appropriate.
In this situation, you should stop him right away. Better late than never. The annoyance you'll cause him and even the bad feelings you'll stamp on the first date - while important - are less important than not being slutty. True, he will lose some respect for you due to your lack of tact and because you led him on, but he would lose more respect for you if you slept with him on the first date.
The answer to the larger question is a little more complicated. For starters, you shouldn't have had four drinks at the bar (you could have nursed two instead). And then you shouldn't have gone inside with him when you got back to his place. And then you shouldn't have let him put his hand down your pants. And then you shouldn't have let him unbutton your shirt. And then you shouldn't have let him take off your bra. And then you shouldn't... etc. I am not saying you should be a prude, but I am saying that you should be a prude on the first date. With each thing you allow him to do, he feels closer to sex and you cause him more chagrin by then stopping him.
On a first date, I recommend not going in his place. You can have the four drinks at the bar if you can walk home or take public transportation, but otherwise the drinks offer too easy an excuse for needing to go inside to "sober up." If you do go in with him, it isn't the end of the world if you make out. You aren't giving the average American guy mixed signals by making out with him and then saying no to sex. The best stopping point is when he goes to put his hand down your pants or when he goes to take off your clothes - whichever one comes first. All you need to do to stop him is this: without interrupting the kissing, gently grab his hand and guide it away from your pants or shirt, to some other place on your body. Then continue making out as if nothing happened. It is a strong but subtle message. If he tries again, you just repeat the motion. If he tries a third time, you pull back and say "I don't want to do that yet." or something similar. Saying "yet" or "tonight" is key, because it hints that it will happen sometime in the future, and this will entice him (though be careful not to tell him when you'll do it).
You walk back to his place together and he invites you in. It is still fairly early, so you accept, but you both agree that it is "just for a little while." You are impressed because his place is really nice - well decorated, but decidedly manly; he has good taste. He kisses you again and you start making out on his couch. You are comfortable with him, and he seems comfortable holding you - you fit well together. Soon his hands move from touching your face to holding your waist and caressing your breasts through your shirt. Before long his hand is down your pants. You are a little drunk so you don't stop him - after all, it feels good, and you are really comfortable with him. But then he starts to unbutton your shirt.
You don't want to have sex with him on the first date, so you know you should stop him; but it is hard to say no - not because you want to have sex with him so badly (though you are actually starting to), but because it seems inappropriate or even unfair to stop him. You don't want to disappoint him and ruin the night, especially when it is just to follow some "rule" your mom taught you. So what do you do? How do you stop him without ruining the end of the date? By the time you've considered what the most tactful way of stopping him would be, he's finished taking off your shirt and bra. Your nipples are in his mouth when you realize that he's actually already unbuttoned your jeans...
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I agree that stopping the guy at this point is going to piss him off. There is no question that your suspicion is right in that regard - in fact it will probably piss him off more than you realize. So what should you do now, and when should you have stopped him? There was never a time when it seemed appropriate.
In this situation, you should stop him right away. Better late than never. The annoyance you'll cause him and even the bad feelings you'll stamp on the first date - while important - are less important than not being slutty. True, he will lose some respect for you due to your lack of tact and because you led him on, but he would lose more respect for you if you slept with him on the first date.
The answer to the larger question is a little more complicated. For starters, you shouldn't have had four drinks at the bar (you could have nursed two instead). And then you shouldn't have gone inside with him when you got back to his place. And then you shouldn't have let him put his hand down your pants. And then you shouldn't have let him unbutton your shirt. And then you shouldn't have let him take off your bra. And then you shouldn't... etc. I am not saying you should be a prude, but I am saying that you should be a prude on the first date. With each thing you allow him to do, he feels closer to sex and you cause him more chagrin by then stopping him.
On a first date, I recommend not going in his place. You can have the four drinks at the bar if you can walk home or take public transportation, but otherwise the drinks offer too easy an excuse for needing to go inside to "sober up." If you do go in with him, it isn't the end of the world if you make out. You aren't giving the average American guy mixed signals by making out with him and then saying no to sex. The best stopping point is when he goes to put his hand down your pants or when he goes to take off your clothes - whichever one comes first. All you need to do to stop him is this: without interrupting the kissing, gently grab his hand and guide it away from your pants or shirt, to some other place on your body. Then continue making out as if nothing happened. It is a strong but subtle message. If he tries again, you just repeat the motion. If he tries a third time, you pull back and say "I don't want to do that yet." or something similar. Saying "yet" or "tonight" is key, because it hints that it will happen sometime in the future, and this will entice him (though be careful not to tell him when you'll do it).
do you think it says anything about his thoughts about you if he tries to have sex on the first date? as in, if he really likes you and is attracted he won't even try and will restrain himself on the first date?
ReplyDeleteThat is a good question. The short answer is probably yes - I think in many cases if a guy is thinking of you as "potential girlfriend" material, he won't try to have sex with you immediately because he won't want to "screw things up."
DeleteBut, a lot of guys won't know yet on the first date whether you are "girlfriend material" - they just don't know you well enough yet. And he might not think about having sex with you until you start kissing and he thinks "oh damn, well she let me kiss her, let's see how much farther she'll go..."
Andrew - thanks for clearing this up. I normally never go home with guys on a first date...But does the same idea work on a later date (3rd, 4th, 5th, etc)...say if I am comfortable going to his place and making out on any date after the first date, but don't want to sleep with him/oral sex yet? I feel awkward going home with a guy after a 3rd date or beyond, wanting only to make out and then he may think otherwise.
ReplyDeleteYes, it works on any date. You never owe him sex, until you are in a relationship - and for some people, until you are married.
DeleteThis reply makes me really like you, Andrew.
DeleteTHIS reply built rapport for your entire blog with me. THANK YOU. I am 3 months in with a very kind guy, but am waiting on sex until marriage (which I told him the second time he tried to kiss me, so we got it all out there really fast). He is the first male individual to truly not pressure me and respect my boundaries when I lay them out there as each one comes up. I'm actually looking into how to let him know he can go a little further than making out without frustrating him too much sexually.
DeleteMaybe this is just me, but I never go for drinks after dinner on a first date. Maybe because I live in Europe and we have dinner later (9 or 10) so when dinner is over it is already quite late.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the dinner is the date - you kiss goodnight and set up a new one.
When you drink, you usually drink together. Sure he's a man and he can drink more than you without getting tipsy. But he might also drink faster (and more in total than you), so usually by the time you are tipsy, so is he. And if a guy constantly orders more wine, encourages to go for a drink and then encourages you to take another, that's a red flag to me.
If he always encourages more alcohol, then something's up. I don't care if "most guys" do it. He might not know if you are relationship material just yet and he's interested in sex anyway, but you don't know if HE is relationship material either, and his first date behavior shouldn't be anything less than perfect. Even assholes are gentlemen on first dates. Which says a lot about those who are not.
I agree with that
DeleteIs it just me or would anyone else never think to go back to a man's place after a date? I would say 75% of the time men drive or walk me back to my place because they are gentleman and plan our first date around my convenience. The other 25% of the time I drive/cab it back myself.
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if you mess this up and you go back on the first date and you sleep there but dont have sex with him.. but then decide it was the wrong move… is there a way to backtrack? Or did you just piss him off and that's why he's not interested in you anymore.
ReplyDeleteProbably best not to go back to his place. On the first date with my now fiance, we made out at a museum in the various rooms when no one else was around. When a few dates later he suggested more, I said I wasn't ready. I didn't even go to his place until we had been together 6 months.
ReplyDeleteThe easiest way to avoid this situation is by not going to his place and not drinking too much on a first date. My ex bf asked me back to his place the first time we met,he'd been drinking that night and I hadn't.We did kiss on the street but there's only so far you can go in public.Just practise saying I would love to go back to your place but I have an early start/early gym class/etc etc.Its like dieting, short term sacrifice leads to long term benefits
ReplyDeleteif you were his wife, and couldn't have intercourse because it was your period, you might take care of him with your hands or your mouth. I wonder if women here feel this is also an appropriate strategy for them. In other words, do or say something which puts it out there that you don't want him looking someplace else, to get his itch scratched? I myself think that the whole story-line of "you haven't EARNED that yet" is bad news; because what exactly will you say when he asks what the requirement is? Another thing is, the manosphere is teaching guys that if the woman wants SIGNS of commitment from him without giving him what he needs, he's setting himself up for decades of the-wife-wearing-the-pants. Not to mention the stories he hears from married men about how sex can easily become infrequent after he's put a ring on it! Is that what you women really want..... to be the Boss Man?
ReplyDeleteI have a healthy respect for your mindset :)
DeleteMen may not admit it, but sex is their primal need and even if they enjoyed the date, the majority of men would be disappointed if they couldn't get their release. It's normal. Women who don't put out lose some respect due to the fact that they disappoint the man after he satisfied her primal needs. However we need to respect the women's point too, I completely understand that it might come across as sluttish or whatever. So yes, why not make a compromise - don't completely put out, let him invest more first, but give him the release he (naturally) craves so much. That's only fair.
There's a lot that is "off" with this mentality. You are suggesting that a woman should be concerned about giving him something sexually so he doesn't look elsewhere. Well, one, he may well look elsewhere anyway, and two, if he's not interested in her without sex, there's probably not much potential there for any type of longterm commitment. What manospherians tend not to understand is mutuality over the long term. No one said men have to spend a lot of money on dates. They are setting that up as a straw man to cover for the fact that many simply are after sex and want it as quickly and easily as possible.
DeleteLast night I had a date with this great guy, we met a month ago but have been too busy to meet up. It was coffee/cake date that lasted hours. I brought him back to mine and we kissed and there was some over the clothes fondling but fortunately he stopped, just before I did, which I quite liked as that never happens. Dont judge me but I often sleep with a guy I first meet, it may sound cheesy but the guys I meet are really really nice and whether its a lover for the weekend or a few weeks (they never last longer) we remain friends.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I want to change - you are right, whilst I really want sex just as much as any man, their interest and respect is simply gone that night.
Tomorrow I have another date with this amazing man and we talked about cooking together at home.. warning bells are going off as I know I wont be able stop myself as I really want to. Is the second date too soon? Should I suggest we do something else or do I simply stop before we go too far, if thats even possible (Im in my 30s and I feel like Ive been injected with testosterone lol).
Hi,
DeleteI think the second date is good to put out on. If you are looking for a guy to marry and thus put even more hurdles in his way to filter out non potential husbands (that will cost you respect once again, tho, hence only if he is really committed will he want to see you on another, third date), then wait for the third date if you feel it's not the right time to put out.
Hi, i made a mistake of having my first date with a guy i never wanted to have anything with at his place. It's not like i usually do that but i felt this guy was harmless considering the fact that he was a one time classmate of mine and we are about the same age range.
ReplyDeleteWhile at his place,we had a few glasses while we were chatting and i got tipsy, we danced together and he started pushing for a kiss which i refused him and before i knew what was happening,he had reached for my boobs and caressing me, i stopped him as fast as i could but this guy is much bigger in size so i could push him for too long and coupled with the fact that i was tipsy,his touches started turning me on, i tried fighting but he stil got his way forcefully. Now the did is done,how do i stop it from happening again and is it possible that i am able to clear the already created air because it is obvious what his thought of me would be right now and i cant confidently say there won't be more dates
Report him if he forcefully took his way that is rape. Do not see this man again
DeleteMost guys don't actually lose respect for girls for putting out early, according to surveys. I don't know about other people in this regard, but I also don't think early sex hurts the chances of a long-term relationship. Things are just really likely to fail in the beginning in general, so if you have sex early you're going to end up having sex with more people you didn't have a long-term relationship with. It's not that that sex ruined the chances - there was never any chance to begin with but both parties still wanted to get laid. Not to say there aren't other reasons to avoid having sex on the first date.
ReplyDeleteTrevor-I disagree. I also think your comments may carry different weight when you look at the quality of individuals involved. I've found that people who give up sex too early (particularly on the first date) end up being people with low standards that aren't of a high quality when it comes to desirability. People who are lonely, depressed, have self-esteem issues, etc, and others who don't value themselves have no problem giving up sex easily to compensate for whatever deficiencies are present in their lives. (I suggest people make decisions about getting in to relationships (and sex) when they are emotionally healthy.) I think with 100% certainty that sex early hurts chances of a long-term relationship that isn't void of problems/drama/settling/constant misery.
DeleteIt also speaks to the value of sex. I value sex and I won't have sex with anyone unless there's some level of commitment and mutual respect in a relationship. I'm also attractive (by widely accepted standards), intelligent, and have a lot going for me. Developing a reputation of engaging in activity that reflects diminished self-worth is inconsistent with who I am. Sex too early, also, especially without knowing a person well is inconsistent with people who value themselves.
I agree that long-term relationships can result from having sex early, but I bet you that 99.999% of the time those relationships will fail or leave the parties miserable/unhappy/depressd and because they don't have self-esteem to walk away (or whatever their pathology may be) the suffering (aka relationship) ensues.
You don't break out the fine china unless the occasion requires it :) My two cents!
Trevor, I agree with you, and I think I've said the same thing somewhere else on this blog. Correlation shouldn't be confused with causation. It's not that having sex will ruin the chance of a relationship; it's just that you should probably wait to see if it's going in the direction of a relationship before you have sex. That way you protect yourself from getting attached and hurt by someone who was never going to be interested in a relationship with you, whether you slept with him or not. If sparks are flying and you really feel like you've made a connection with someone, there's no reason to hold back. Go with your intuition. If you have strong mutual affection from the get go, that's not going to die because you had sex. In fact, it can just increase your mutual desire for each other. If you're not sure how you feel about a guy, and he's given you no signs on how he feels about you - but you think he's hot and want to get laid - well, get laid if you want. But be realistic and know there's a good chance he won't call you. If you didn't sleep with him there was a still a high chance that he wouldn't call you.
DeleteI agree
DeleteI don't know about this either.. I've done both... I've slept with 2 of my boyfriends on the first date, and I didn't do it because of them.. the two times it happened was because I'd gone a really long time without sex and I got really turned on and I was really attracted to them. I don't like to sleep around, but I love sex.. so when I do find someone I'm attracted to and I get turned on it's kind of a bad combination for me. Although it only happened twice, but both times it turned into a [mediocre] relationship for me.. they both failed though. And now I learned my lesson and I'm just going to avoid going to a guy's place before I'm ready to sleep with them. I've also had 2 other relationships where I held out on sex for a few months (cus I never went back to their places).. those didn't work either.
DeleteI also know girls who slept with guys and did really slutty things on their first date. My best friend gave a guy a blowjob in a public bathroom, they ended up dating for 4 years and lived together for 3 of those years. He ended up breaking up with her cus she treated him like shit.
I know another couple who were sex buddies for a year, then started dating, and are getting married this summer. They've been together for 4 years plus that one year where they were just sex buddies.
Now I have to agree that the quality of relationships are probably low. I'm surprised the couple above are marrying this summer as I don't think they're a good match at all. I know other married couples who slept on the first date too.
Even the 2 guys I slept with on the first date turned out to be shitty guys I would have never dated if I got to know them but because I slept with them I felt like i had to make it work...
So I think sleeping on the first date is WRONG for me, because I want a quality relationship.
But for someone whose just desperate to get married (most people that I know) it doesn't really matter.. because sex on the first date CAN lead to marriage, but maybe just not a good one.. but again I don't think people who are desperate care.
After meeting a guy and having a late lunch w him that same day, I invited him back to my place for coffee. We both had plans to meet up with friends and go our separate ways, later that evening.
ReplyDeleteI told him I would not sleep w him.
We make out in the kitchen and he seemed to understand I would not go further. Then I suggested we go to the couch.
We started making out on the couch and he tried (more than before) to get me to sleep w him.
I stupidly said something like 'maybe if I shower' thinking that would stop him and he went off saying stuff like 'no, I like you natural'. I smiled and said I wouldn't sleep w him but it was too late. I said 'I'm not going to sleep w you, you're totally hot, but it's not happening. He got sexually graffic verbally and it turned me on so much I had to walk away from him and started getting dizzy. He knew this and kept going until I said I was about to faint.
Then he asked me why I asked him over. I said after we started talking I thought he was someone I wanted to talk to again. He seemed genuinely touched. He handed me his phone, asked me to put my number in it and walked to the bathroom. After I put the # in he left only to fb me a week or so later. It's been almost 2 weeks since we met and he hasn't texted or called. Not sure what to make of this...
Just sex ...probably won't text nor call until you do or sees he's got a chance once again
Delete*i meant to say...
ReplyDeleteHe asked me why I approached him...
Hey, This is a really great article.. I have a BIG question though. I met a amazing guy last year in a city I was working in for 3 months. Second time meeting it happened.. I knew I wanted to wait longer, but I was overseas a long time, he was really cute, and talked out my 'concerns' and I gave in. He didnt call me for a week, then a few weeks later, actually took me out with his friends and some great places right before I Ieft. We've been in a tiny bit of 'whats up' communication in the 8 months I was gone, and he recently wrote we should chill when I get back. Well now Im back for 3-4 months again. Any way to recover? How do I not go straight into IT again the first few times we (if we) hang out? I mean, we've done it before, so how do I say I want to wait a few dates at least, even though we've done it before without sounding all over the place? Any advice much appreciated!
ReplyDeleteI do not like the way that everything falls on to the female. Guys lead girls on and test them, then turn around as say 'you allowed me to' or 'you led me on'. If guys were mature and man enough to talk about sex first rather than jumping right in, a lot of girls would not get sexually assaulted or cave under pressure. Sometimes its simply a matter of misunderstanding and the girl does not know how to say @No' and be 'Assertive'. Men should not be praised for being blood hunds when it comes to sex and yet females have to take all the bad rep.
ReplyDeleteI agree
DeleteJust say NO ..straight up ...if he understands his worth something if he doesn't ..goodbye my friend!
DeleteI met a guy on vacation, who was traveling in the same group as me. We made out a few of the days, just kissing. He lives in another state that I visit frequently for work. I visited and we went on a date before I read this post above. I had too much to drink and he ended up coming back to my hotel. We slept together even though we were not ready. I freaked out afterwards and pushed him away. Is there anyway to come back from sleeping together too quickly?
ReplyDeleteUm...Okay, so, what the fuck???? Since when does going up to the guys apartment mean that you should accept he's going to expect sex? And what's with this "you shouldn't have gone up to his apartment" and "You should have said no sooner" bullshit??? NO. You decide when you want to stop, you decide how far you will go, and if he's not okay with that, then he's not good enough for you.
ReplyDeleteSometimes guys are eager to seduce and do it all at the first date, but girls still are not ready for it thinking they are. To prepare yourselves read some articles here blog.shagaholic.com
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing the key here is for a women to be in control of herself. Like maybe it be best if she kept the date short - say an hour.
ReplyDeleteAnd, you DON'T need lot's and lot's of drinks on a date... say 1/2. I think anything else is masking vulnerabilities and the ability to be present and in the moment.
Back in the day, my friends and I would say, ``I liked him enough not to sleep with him on the first date.`
ReplyDeleteA first date fandango is best served on a man that you can delete from your life easily. You can follow your impulses and act out your fantasies, and then block everything. You can share your most intimate secrets, and enact your most perverse drives. My favorite candidates were men I met traveling, or in different circles. Avoid the marrieds and committeds; you don`t want that on your conscience, but by all means look to the one that wants YOU.
But you have to be crystal clear about what you are doing. You don`t want or need a commitment, or slimy entanglements. You know that there is an attraction, and respect, and very often some totally uninhibited sex.
But then you move on, go your own way with your head held high, and a lot more quickly than most guys could imagine, as long as Sunday never meets Monday. And you keep using protection.
You can never confuse this file with the husband material file. If you play for husbands, you play to win. And that takes massive self discipline, self esteem, and courage. You made the call; you play it as it lays.
Hi Doctor, so I was cheated on by my ex girlfriend and i didnt contact her for 2 months but she used to do it. When i met her we both expressed our love towards each other. we had a good couple of hours holding hands and being together like we used to be. but then i made it clear to her that i want to have sex with her because i wanted to validate the fact that she still loves me and is not faking it this time. This upset her and we had a terrible time and basically both lost our temper. after sometime i went over to her place apologising because i realised what i asked for was not reasonable. i was a bit needy and clingy but she accepted my sincere apology. but now she's not talking to me. Do you think i should go NC again, that would be the best alternative here. i feel hurt again.
ReplyDeleteTheres this guy i have been hooking up with, but i learned he is in a relationship and i didnt intend to be his sex toy. I wanted to turn him down but i am constanly reminded of how hot he is and how attracted I am to him therefore I never say no.... I want to tell him I dont want to do this anymore but how....Its like he expects it and if he doesnt get what he wants he...just gets mad :/ Im hurting as well emotionally from this... How should i turn him down???? :/
ReplyDeleteDear Marie,
DeleteYour situation is similar to mine, except that I didn't know he was married when I slept with him. After finding out I just cut all contact seeing what a mistake it is. As it hurts you already, just leave before it get worse. Saying no is just hard because you don't want to. Get into sports or activities that requires concentrating to get your mind off him. Best of luck!
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ReplyDelete