[Note: Although I edited this post later, I wrote the vast majority of it after coming back from a bar on the night described, hence the use of the present tense.]
I am fuming right now. Furious. I feel like shit. I just walked in the door after a night out...
The evening started on a high note. I felt great before I went out. I slept well last night, got a lot done today, had a good workout this afternoon, was dressed well and was generally in a good mood. When I got to the bar there was a good crowd and a bunch of cute girls. I started the night by having a beer with my friend John and telling him a few things I've learned about approaching girls. He was just dumped by his girlfriend of three years, so I hoped he could use the pointers to meet someone new. Soon we started looking for girls we wanted to talk to. That is when the rejections started.
Every guy has "on" nights and "off" nights - this was definitely an off night. Only one girl I talked to the entire evening wanted to keep talking to me, and she wasn't attractive. The first group I tried to start a conversation with immediate turned their backs on me, and didn't even acknowledge what I said to them - despite the fact that it was clearly audible. Another girl entertained a conversation with me for a few minutes while my friend talked to hers, and then just walked away without even saying "excuse me," or "nice talking to you," - or even "bye." Another girl, when I tried to get her attention, literally shook her head "no" and turned away without saying a word. She didn't even listen to what I was trying to say to her. Time and time again I was shut down. It was humiliating.
I should mention that I normally have good success when I approach women. I know how to start and carry a casual conversation tactfully, and most women find me attractive. My lack of success wasn't a matter of me being awkward or arrogant. I was doing the same kind of things I do on the nights when I walk out of the bar with phone numbers from the hottest girl there. There certainly are things a man can do to improve his chances with women, but there is also an element of chance. You can't predict when a girl has had a bad day, or only likes black guys, or already has a boyfriend. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't; sometimes she likes you, sometimes she doesn't. By some coincidence, tonight was a long series of "doesn't"s.
As the night progressed, my humiliation grew, and then grew into anger. Towards the end I found myself wanting to lash out at these women, to retaliate for the pain they'd inflicted with the effortless and unfeeling turn of a shoulder, or the shake of their head. Like a 5th grader, I wanted to tell them I didn't give a fuck because they were ugly and I didn't want to talk to them anyway; but it wasn't true. I wanted to tell them I didn't care because I already had three numbers that night; but it wasn't true. I wanted my personal sense of worth and value to be completely independent of their response to my approach; but it wasn't. I wanted to not care, but I did.
As a man, the greatest desire I feel is for women. When I can't attract them, I feel worthless, impotent, emasculated. With each rejection, my sense of value was partially sucked out of me and trampled on the floor. And I had to stand there and pretend it didn't phase me, all the while trying to decide if it was worth pushing through the awkwardness and humiliation to see if there is a way to salvage the conversation (and my pride), or if I should just give up, excuse myself and walk away - defeated. Externally I maintained the same expression and held myself poised and upright; but inside, I was crushed. These girls' actions spoke volumes: "I do not value you enough even to entertain a conversation with you." I felt like shit.
I usually have the capacity to endure two or three rejections in a night - maybe more if they are spread out and interlaced with successes. But tonight the rejections piled on the rejections, and there was no recovering. At the end of the night I left the bar feeling dejected and angry.
Not all guys react this way to rejection; others might get embarrassed or saddened rather than angry. But even if the type of reaction is different, the degree will be equally severe. So the next time a guy brushes past you in a bar without noticing you, or doesn't call after getting your number, or stares at the girl next to you without so much as a glance in your direction - take a step back and remember that men have to endure rejection too, even though it takes a different form. It might be tempting to believe that "men have it easy" because we get to choose who we approach and when; but the truth is that women have just as much power in their ability to refuse a man's approach, as we have in our ability to initiate. And it hurts no less for a man to be told he isn't worth a girl's time than it does for you to be told (through a man's words, actions, or lack thereof) that you aren't worth his.
I am fuming right now. Furious. I feel like shit. I just walked in the door after a night out...
The evening started on a high note. I felt great before I went out. I slept well last night, got a lot done today, had a good workout this afternoon, was dressed well and was generally in a good mood. When I got to the bar there was a good crowd and a bunch of cute girls. I started the night by having a beer with my friend John and telling him a few things I've learned about approaching girls. He was just dumped by his girlfriend of three years, so I hoped he could use the pointers to meet someone new. Soon we started looking for girls we wanted to talk to. That is when the rejections started.
Every guy has "on" nights and "off" nights - this was definitely an off night. Only one girl I talked to the entire evening wanted to keep talking to me, and she wasn't attractive. The first group I tried to start a conversation with immediate turned their backs on me, and didn't even acknowledge what I said to them - despite the fact that it was clearly audible. Another girl entertained a conversation with me for a few minutes while my friend talked to hers, and then just walked away without even saying "excuse me," or "nice talking to you," - or even "bye." Another girl, when I tried to get her attention, literally shook her head "no" and turned away without saying a word. She didn't even listen to what I was trying to say to her. Time and time again I was shut down. It was humiliating.
I should mention that I normally have good success when I approach women. I know how to start and carry a casual conversation tactfully, and most women find me attractive. My lack of success wasn't a matter of me being awkward or arrogant. I was doing the same kind of things I do on the nights when I walk out of the bar with phone numbers from the hottest girl there. There certainly are things a man can do to improve his chances with women, but there is also an element of chance. You can't predict when a girl has had a bad day, or only likes black guys, or already has a boyfriend. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't; sometimes she likes you, sometimes she doesn't. By some coincidence, tonight was a long series of "doesn't"s.
As the night progressed, my humiliation grew, and then grew into anger. Towards the end I found myself wanting to lash out at these women, to retaliate for the pain they'd inflicted with the effortless and unfeeling turn of a shoulder, or the shake of their head. Like a 5th grader, I wanted to tell them I didn't give a fuck because they were ugly and I didn't want to talk to them anyway; but it wasn't true. I wanted to tell them I didn't care because I already had three numbers that night; but it wasn't true. I wanted my personal sense of worth and value to be completely independent of their response to my approach; but it wasn't. I wanted to not care, but I did.
As a man, the greatest desire I feel is for women. When I can't attract them, I feel worthless, impotent, emasculated. With each rejection, my sense of value was partially sucked out of me and trampled on the floor. And I had to stand there and pretend it didn't phase me, all the while trying to decide if it was worth pushing through the awkwardness and humiliation to see if there is a way to salvage the conversation (and my pride), or if I should just give up, excuse myself and walk away - defeated. Externally I maintained the same expression and held myself poised and upright; but inside, I was crushed. These girls' actions spoke volumes: "I do not value you enough even to entertain a conversation with you." I felt like shit.
I usually have the capacity to endure two or three rejections in a night - maybe more if they are spread out and interlaced with successes. But tonight the rejections piled on the rejections, and there was no recovering. At the end of the night I left the bar feeling dejected and angry.
Not all guys react this way to rejection; others might get embarrassed or saddened rather than angry. But even if the type of reaction is different, the degree will be equally severe. So the next time a guy brushes past you in a bar without noticing you, or doesn't call after getting your number, or stares at the girl next to you without so much as a glance in your direction - take a step back and remember that men have to endure rejection too, even though it takes a different form. It might be tempting to believe that "men have it easy" because we get to choose who we approach and when; but the truth is that women have just as much power in their ability to refuse a man's approach, as we have in our ability to initiate. And it hurts no less for a man to be told he isn't worth a girl's time than it does for you to be told (through a man's words, actions, or lack thereof) that you aren't worth his.
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Was this a big bar Andrew, or a small one? Because I can say as an attractive woman who has been approached by many men in her time is that one of the top reasons I will reject someone is if I see them trying it on with other girls before me...if I do and he comes to me it makes me feel like second, third or etc. best..thus I feel rejected. Also women want men who appear to be wanted by everyone...I'm sure that you are normally very popular with the ladies but it can take one overt rejection in a small area to create your fate for the evening.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you have said before that you tend to go for younger women and that their personalities are generally not as well developed as that of older women.. I find that when you are younger you feel a lot more free to be rude to potential suitors sometimes as even a show to your friends and due to the sheer amount of attention you get..you can get a bit up yourself..there is something like that about this generation anyhow (I blame it on Facebook and other similar social media). I am your age now and while the attention has changed (not the quantity but the ages of men) you learn as you get older that it does not cost to have manners and be appreciative of the compliment because looks are transient.
It was a big bar, and crowded. You might be right actually that they saw me talk to other girls first, though age couldn't have had anything to do with it, because (a) they weren't that young) and (b) they were the same age as the girls that normally like me.
DeleteBut anyway I am not interested in solving "why" here. I am more interested in pointing out that, for whatever reasons, men suffer through the same humiliation that women do, even if it happens in different circumstances. The important paragraph is the last one.
That's great you find yourself attractive and very likeable but if I saw a guy going around the room hitting on everyone, to me that screams player looking for hook up.
DeleteAnd if you think its horrible when men get rejected try being a woman who gets rejected. Happened to me last nite in fact. There's a guy I'm friendly with and asked if he wanted to go to an art exhibit we'd both expressed interest in...only response I got was sorry already been. Ive very rarely asked men out, but this will make be not do it again. Bonus we have several mutual friends so now I have to play it off as though I don't care.
hen men get rejected try being a woman who gets rejected. Happened to me last nite in fact. There's a guy I'm friendly with and asked if he wanted to go to an art exhibit we'd both expressed interest in...only response I got was sorry already been. Ive very rarely asked men out, but this will make be not do it again.
DeleteOUCH! OWNED.
Did you get a sense from his face & other nonverbal expressions whether he was trying to put on the brakes? Or would it be worth trying to figure out another idea for getting together? (I think going to see an art exhibit is a great way to hang out with a friend, by the way.)
DeleteI only ask because I know I have felt bad for inadvertently rejecting people. A couple of times, way in the past, guys had asked me to go to a movie. In one case, I actually had a slight crush on the guy but because he caught me off guard w/ asking me out, I told him I’d already seen the movie.
I guess I was shocked at realizing he might like me & unable to come up with an appropriately encouraging response. In retrospect I should’ve suggested an alternative plan, as unfortunately, he never asked again.
My epic eve was turned down by 13 women. My friends thought my theme song should be 'Shot Down in Flames' Just one of those nights were the stars just do not line up. Happens to the best of us. No worries, there is always today.....
ReplyDeleteThis is true. And that is ultimately the attitude women should adopt when a guy gets their number but doesn't call (again), or they get dumped by another boyfriend.
DeleteVery true, but it seems most girls seem to think it is more enjoyable to cry for weeks, and re-read every text this random guy or ex-boyfriend has sent to them while eating ice cream than to just move on. I am just thankful that I don't have much girlfriends - mainly guy friends - so I don't have to deal with listening to sob stories about random guys they barely know who have not called back or texted back after a first date. And if one of my girlfriends complains too much, I found this great trick to make her cheer up: remind her of her dunping days by making her write down a list of all the guys she ever dumped or didn't call back and the reason why. It helps.
DeleteI frequently think about what it must be like for men to be rejected, as I am often the one doing the rejecting. I often feel guilty- a lot of times I want to follow up my "no thank you" with a "but you ARE attractive and funny! I just am already involved/you're not my type/I have a weird taste in men." When it comes to mingling and flirting, I am very thankful to be a woman and not the one who is expected to make the first move- or else I'd be the one getting rejected.
ReplyDeleteMy main problem is a guy will be friendly and strike up a conversation, and he's nice so I continue the conversation in a friendly matter, which unfortunately leads him to believe that I am interested. Many times the guys I reject seem like great guys, not ugly creeps.I hate being rude and bitchy to guys who don't deserve it, but they won't get the message otherwise. So Andrew, I am dying to know- what is the best way to reject a guy at a bar, as to lessen the blow to his ego?
That's an easy one. Standby.
DeleteWould be great if you could throw in something about buying drinks. It feels rude to take a drink and leave so I try to avoid a guy paying for a drink if I don't want to spend time with him. I have experienced a guy just paying the bartender when I've already ordered a drink. You cannot "hold aside" a girl like that, it really annoys me. So I have to just take it or refuse it, and later leave, even if he considers it rude. If guys really insist on buying drinks for you, it's not fair that you have to hang around to be polite?
DeleteThank you for your honesty Andrew. :) I think it would serve both sexes well to think about how each others' actions affect the other. Even something as simple as a glance or an "excuse me" makes a huge difference. A good reminder and I commend you for putting it out there. DL
ReplyDeleteIn reference to ShortBlonde's question on how to turn guys down nicely, I don't really think there is a way to soften the blow without hurting their ego. In my clubbing days I would engage in friendly conversation which i really enjoy with no further intentions, but when he would ask for my number, I'd just let out a big smile and say something like "I really enjoyed our conversation, it was nice talking to you", and he gets the message, usually. A few times when i was super uneasy, id just give my number and never pick up. save it as "dont pick" - many get the message after calling once or twice. I dont know if this was the okay thing to do but well......i couldn't have thought of a better way in the heat of the moment.
ReplyDeleteI've never experienced rejection from men, thank god. so i dont know the feeling at all. but from reading this post....it seems like a real blow to the ego. ah well, we keep it moving, on to the next one.
l guy once chatted me up on street. I liked him so l went out with him and gave him my email address. Few weeks go by, and lm starting to get really really rude messages from him around 4 in the morning to my email (not to phone). Was confusing, why, until now. He was lashing out all the rejection from girls to me. THAT was not cool. Cos we weren´t even "dating."
ReplyDeleteEvery guy has off nights, but chances are if you bounced to another venue after the first 2 or 3 rejections everything would have been fine. Women want men that other women want and your social value just got shot and then it just domino affects from there.
ReplyDeleteBut to the point of your article...yeah, women wouldn't survive one day if they had to deal with the rejections men go through. There's many things where women have it more difficult, but this by far is not one of them.
I don't think the majority of women will ever understand the pain of multiple rejections. You wonder if you're a leper or if you've got Aspergers or something. Just because a guy doesn't show pain, doesn't mean he's not feeling it.
ReplyDeleteWomen will continue to ruthlessly reject for as long as there are no social consequences to doing so.
Part of the 'problem' for men is that they link their confidence and self-worth up to their ability to get women, more so than women do. It doesn't seem like they have the same close friendships either - going to a bar is all about picking up women, and it is not as if they can have fun otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWhat goes through women's minds, is practically the same as what goes through men's minds when they try to have easy sex - "she might be the one, but statistically speaking, she probably won't be". That guy asking for your number might be the love of your life, but probably not. Most likely he just wants to get laid. He'll judge you for it if you say yes and be pissed with you if you say no.
Multiple rejections are obviously irritating, but you can go home whenever you want and call it a night - multiple tries means multiple failures is always a possibility. I'd still take it over being used for sex.
What is your point for going out? Are you trying to meet the "one" or just get a bunch of numbers to feel good about yourself?
ReplyDeleteIt is true that if a woman sees you talking to every women at the bar she won't feel special when you finally make your round to her. She'll wonder why you're making rounds in the first place. "Are you a loser and or do you just want sex and that's it". Women want to be the "one". We want to be valued and appreciated. And I think your posts are all about teaching women how to be valued and appreciated. Some exapmles: posts on looking attractive, how some women are smarter than others, not telling a guy when you're ready for sex--to name a few. You're hurt because you didn't get the numbers from all the women you were interested in. In turn how do you think a woman feels when she thinks that you were the only guy that wasn't a creep that came to talk to her and gives you her number? She feels uneasy and is hoping that you will not treat her like shit. Men have a plethra of choices and women have maybe 3 max and this can be less by her race. She doesn't have the option to be picky.
I can understand being angry and frustrated.
That night my goal was to help my friend John meet girls, not to meet them myself.
DeleteBut this is beside the point entirely. Whether I hit on one girl in a bar that seems so beautiful that I think she could be "the one" or whether I hit on 15, the rejection hurts.
I am giving you insight into the experience of approaching girls you've never met before, not showing you my stellar method for meeting my soulmate.
I never thought it was easy for men. Rejection sucks, and I don't think it's fair to say either men or women "have it easy."
ReplyDeleteThink of this, though: as a man you typically don't have to look an unattractive girl in the eye and say "I'm not romantically interested in you" with full knowledge how much it hurts them. You just don't approach her in the first place. As a girl, I always have to do that, and it makes me feel like a villain. I used to delay and not return calls, but that seems so much crueler than just being direct.
Of course, I think if a woman is comfortable rejecting men as rudely as you describe, she's probably not worth having any way, agreed? I'd also argue that I personally would never snub someone for the benefit of looking cool.
You will appreciate a 2-part post coming soon about how to reject a guy in a bar setting.
DeleteCan you do a post on men dating younger women? (think 30 yr old dating a 22 yr old) Some general pros and cons to watch out for would be helpful.
ReplyDeleteAll of my posts are written under the assumption that the man is older and the woman is younger. So this whole blog is about men dating younger women.
DeleteI know that sounds like a smart-ass answer, but if I wrote a post exclusively about how women should deal with older men, it would be huge and encompass at least as much as I have written in this blog already.
If you have a specific question that is age-related, let me know and I will consider writing about it.
Seriously? How easy do you want it. It's much easier for a 30yo guy with game and his shit together (worksout, dresses well, etc.) to date an out of college 22yo than for her 22yo male counterpart. It's basic, a post isn't needed.
DeleteThis is coming from the perspective of a 24yo.
Solving a "why" here might be a good thing. IF you're sense of value is in any way connected to a woman accepting or rejecting you, you wear that need on you like a funk that is stronger than your cologne. If you are hitting on quality women, they can sense that. Also, quality women won't waste your time or theirs indulging you with conversation if they aren't interested. I think that night you were blessed with the opportunity to discover many lessons if you just go back and come through the deeper meanings. Maybe it's time to more clearly define the type of woman you want, go after her, and not waste time on other women. You read Deida. You know this stuff.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that the first couple rejections were for reasons outside of my control. As I pointed out, that night was an exception for me, not the norm.
DeleteAfter the first couple, I agree that the rest were probably a result of my newly-deflated self-esteem shining through. There is no question that women pick up on that strongly.
So why not stop then? You advise women all the time to stop doing things that they know are not working (ie: fucking on the first date, calling after he stops contact) but you are not willing to take this advice?
DeleteBecause normally it does work.
DeleteI don't get bent out of shape when I get rejected by a woman. Sure, it happens every so often and it does sting a little, but at the end of the day, I'm in it for the sex. Chances are if they talk to me and want to date, I'll eventually ditch her after I sleep with her a handful of times. Having this in the back of my mind makes the rejections much more tolerable. It's a cold world out there, just focus on getting yours.
ReplyDeletewow. why are girls sometimes so mean when a guy hits on them? because they've had experiences in the past with guys who believe this and approach AND date women with this mentality. They in turn become more defensive and suspicious when men hit on them. I feel sorry for you dude. You sound like you really hate women to treat them like this.
DeleteWow, what a slug. News flash for you buddy: guys like you are easy for decent women to spot. So if you eventually ever decide you want to find a good woman to marry, listen for the crickets.
DeleteI'm pretty sure you aren't a decent woman. But if lying to yourself makes you feel better...then by all means.
DeleteInteresting blog as I'm reading it for the first time. I was linked here through somewhere else in the 'sphere. Anyways, as I'm sure you already know, you are seeking validation in these circumstances, adjusting your worth through your successes (or failures), which is obviously poor form. Outcome independence, and all that, is king. I used to be like you, but now I can honestly say that I've achieved outcome independence, and my skills and success rate have only gone up.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to the commenter who stated that you may reject someone who you have seen talking to many others, to that I say BS. No one is on target 100% of the time, but any man with success in this arena knows when to exit a (souring) conversation gracefully, timely and in good form. If anything, his value is upped, as he is being social, is seen being social, is decreasing approach anxiety and he looks to be leaving on his own accord.
So Andrew, I love your blog. But I think you need to understand something. Women might not get rejected in the way that men do, and they might not have this kind of traumatizing, shitty night the way you did. But my hunch is that for a lot of women, and I mean a LOT of women, this similar feeling of rejection occurs, just in a more spread out way. They may not get rejected dozens of times in one night, but for women small rejections add up and tend to internalize themselves, I would argue. I think that this internalization manifests itself in pretty deep-rooted body image and self-confidence issues. So I really respect your desire to help women out by filling them in on what they can do to increase their attractiveness; however in the future, I think you should try to remember this experience -- this feeling of utter unworthiness -- that tends to stick with more women than may appear. Yes, I agree that a woman would probably look hotter if she could get a bangin supermodel body... but telling her that she should try just may be contributing to this same feelings of inadequacy, compounding themselves over time. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI agree, and I am conscious of that. I try to balance the blog by focusing on other topics (personality, dealing with rejection, how to play "defense" with men, etc.) as well, but looks are critical, so I try to give them the attention they deserve.
Deletejesus, talk about female solipsism. another example of a woman who can't see a perspective other than her own. if you don't see how it feels to be a man, how can you ever empathise or seek to attract a man?
DeleteAfter reading this post,I feel a lot of women can relate to it.Many women who are single and go out to bars, are hoping to be approached by an attractive guy.However there are nights when despite your best efforts with your appearance etc this just does not happen.Although the rejection is in no way as blatant as what you describe it still hurts as your ego takes a hit and you are no closer to finding what you seek.In a sense we all seek validation of our self worth through our ability to attract the opposite sex.
ReplyDeleteYou then have to reassure yourself and continue to work on yourself.This sounds easy but in practice as we all know getting out in the arena time and time again is tough.Rejection is part of life and part of the game between sexes,but that doesn't make it easier for anybody.
Hey,
ReplyDeleteI noticed you mentioned, "or only likes black guys.". I'm a Black Woman, and I experience that on the opposite side. I am curious to hear a White Man's perspective on this. To add to this, I've even had White Women tell me that if they can't get a White Guy that night, they know that at least they can get a Black Guy. Hmmmmmmm, what is that?????? Also can you comment on how White Men view Black Women, as far as dating.
I'm not the author, I'm a white female reader, who spends a lot of time with men, and while I am sure you still want his response, I thought I would tell you just what I have seen. Keep in mind that this is in Texas! LOL! Things may be different elsewhere. I tend to be more openminded about relationships, but by virtue of my geography, I am around mostly white men. ...Also keep in mind that these are generalizations, and people can be different as individuals.
DeleteI have personally seen two different patterns of behavior. There are those who are (what I feel are) very conservative, seem to be more racist. They don't have black friends, they talk about Bush (the president, not the fun stuff) and they generally are in "business" somehow. (Or else they are rednecks.) They would never publicly date a black girl, and outwardly they say (to their wife/GF and/or their coupled friends) that they wold never have sex with a black girl, but when "the guys" get together, and have a few beers, they talk about how sexy black chicks are, and how it would be so hot to sleep with a black chick. They are really attracted, even though it's (or maybe because) "taboo" in their culture. Even if they met someone they really liked, they would get crap from their family and friends so they wouldn't be likely to date a black girl seriously.
But the less conservative groups... (Think Austin, TX!) Accepting people, compassionate and caring. These are people who tend to be creative, and talk about helping people, recycling and volunteerism. Prosocial people. They are more likely to be openminded and I believe would be just as likely (or almost as likely) to date a black girl as someone who is white, including having a long-term relationship or marriage. Or... You could see them as being contrary to the conformities of "the system"... The same system which also tries impose the message that interracial relationships are not ok.
I've lived in a number of cities here in Texas, and while the cities are different, it seems like the traits are similar. If a city is more conservative, or less... Or if people within a city are more or less conservative etc. I don't know if Andrew will agree, but this is just what I have seen from my insider view.
I agree, though I think there is a third group of men who genuinely are not attracted to black women, in the same way that some men are genuinely disinterested in asians or arab women.
DeleteHahahah. I am a heterosexual woman and I get rejected by women all the time too ! Don't know what is wrong with me for being unable to make female friends. Have had this problem since grade school. Women form tight social groups and breaking in is harder than breaking into Fort Knox. Women can be cold hearted like this because they get to do all the rejecting. I find men more open to friendships maybe because they understand and value the effort and courage one has to put in to make a connection with others - something that women just can't appreciate. Or at least I think they don't. Until the shoe is on the other foot and it is the women who get rejected - then they keep moaning and groaning that "there are no good men left".
ReplyDelete"And it hurts no less for a man to be told he isn't worth a girl's time than it does for you to be told (through a man's words, actions, or lack thereof) that you aren't worth his."
ReplyDeleteI don't see how you can truly believe this when you tell women all the time that they have to recoginse that men do not become emotionally involved as quickly. In turn, this means that YOU know women do get emotionally involved, even after only a date or two, moreso if there was physical intimacy. Rejection after emotional involvment will always sting more.
It hurts in different ways.
DeleteFor every time a woman gets rejected by 1 guy she dates, a guy gets rejected by (for example) 5 women he approaches. You might be right that a rejection after emotional involvement hurts a woman more, but the man is hurt to a lesser degree more frequently. I was just as mad that night after several rejections as a girl would be after being dumped once after a few dates.
Men's rejection hurts more because it often involves lies and hidden agendas. You take a risk to go on a date with someone, over time you might emotionally invest, you tell them you're looking for a relationship but you still risk getting taken for a ride, or waste a huge amount of time on someone who was only looking to sleep with you. A woman refusing to give out her number is a blow to the ego, but it involves no manipulation.
ReplyDeleteI think most people expect more moral and sense of decency from women than men. For example, women acting immoral will always be considered more scandalous by the media. There are loads of examples - men choosing women for their looks is normal. Women choosing men for their money is shallow.
In the same sense - as you say on this blog - you cannot expect men to do the right thing, it is naive to think they will turn down sex on the first date, that they won't try to take advantage and leave. Most of us have been raised to accept men's nature and as a result, we are hardly shocked by anything. I don't think most men have been raised to expect any negativity from women. I still think experiencing 5, 10, 20 rejections in one night is minor to the shit men give you. For every woman who says "sorry, got a boyfriend", there's a man who's capable of saying he loves you and try to sleep with your best friend.
At there very least women are somewhat bound by norms to behave decent and respectably - men have few such norms to follow.
Women ARE expected to be more moral and decent than men, but men are expected to be stronger and more successful (e.g. in business) than women. It all balances out.
DeleteI wasn't saying women are at disadvantage in life in general, or in business. But in terms of relationships/rejection, where how you treat each other is a big part of it, men can get away with 100x more. Upfront rejection (depending on how much a man approaches) is really the only price men have to pay, and in the grand total it is a very, very small one, since you're not facing exploitation at all (some would say financial, but that's still your choice).
DeleteMen get away with what women allow them to get away with. If men get away with 100 times more than women (which I disagree with anyway), it isn't doing any good for you to complain about it, because you allowed it.
DeleteIn fact, you might call this the underlying philosophy of this blog.
I agree with the statement only to an extent. A woman can be cheated on even if she remains attractive and have sex with her husband regularly. It's still not her fault or something she allowed him to do. If she STAYS with him, she allows it. But even if she dumps him, he's still screwed her over, and the damage is done. If a man promises commitment, yet pumps and dumps a woman, that is not something she 'allowed'. I wouldn't call it naive either.
DeleteBy 'getting away with', I'm talking about stuff women accept. I mean that society doesn't judge men the same way - there are various movies and tv series which celebrate men's ability to screw women over. There aren't any female equivalent to those.
I don't think life is unfair on women in general, but in terms of relationships and dating, it is clearly popular to blame everything on women.
I would sooner be rejected outright on the first approach than used as a walking wallet or taxi which has happened to me quite often. Sure rejection hurts, expecially when it becomes a regular thing, but it hurts alot more to be strung along and used. Eventually it colours your view of women and makes a man suspicious of a woman that might actually like him for real. It makes him slow to take the risk. The old saying "Once bitten, twice shy" springs to mind...
DeleteAndrew - I quote you- Whether I hit on one girl in a bar that seems so beautiful that I think she could be "the one" or whether I hit on 15, the rejection hurts.
ReplyDeleteAlso, "looks are critical". Now me talking- I will be the last one to deny looks are what intitally draw interest, and probably more so for men. And I know you are young. But I pray that part of that "so beautiful" qualification includes heart, soul, personality, and integrity. And just saying, a lot of young ladies I personally know consider "hot" a temperature and not a mature way to describe a woman's looks. And yes, these women are beautiful, inside and out. Maybe expand your value system a little?
I, like virtually all men, select women that I value for their heart, soul, personality and integrity from among the women that I find physically attractive.
DeleteThis isn't something that I or men can help. Appearance is a priority because our biology, driven by evolution, mandates that it be so.
"For every time a woman gets rejected by 1 guy she dates, a guy gets rejected by (for example) 5 women he approaches. You might be right that a rejection after emotional involvement hurts a woman more, but the man is hurt to a lesser degree more frequently."
ReplyDeleteAndrew I love your blog but bullsh*t, we get tonnes of low level rejections to! When I spend 2 hours getting dressed up to the nines, go out and make it obvious I'm happy, interested and available, but all the cute guys I look at look away/talk to my friend/otherwise dismiss me, it is a blatant rejection! This happens all the time to women. Just because we don't approach overtly, doesn't mean we don't know when we've been rejected.
I see what you are saying, but it is also far simpler for you to mask the rejection with excuses about why he didn't approach (many of which might be true, not mere excuses - which is exactly the point). A man has to step up to the fear, put his balls on the table, give the girl a hammer and let her decide whether or not she lands it on his manhood. There is absolutely no ambiguity.
DeleteHaha how's that for an analogy?? ;)
As much as I like this blog, I do feel as though you try to minimise women's legitimate feelings about rejection to the point that it borders on being sexist. I think her point is we do get rejected too just in different ways but nonetheless in ways which are also humiliating and damaging to a woman's self esteem.
DeleteIn this post you seem do a lot of your thinking from either the perspective of a male or from the perspective of a universally attractive, all-powerful female and frame it within a narrative where she has all the power and you are vulnerable and in doing that you're totally minimizing what a lot of women go through on the dating scene - because women - even very attractive ones, also go through experiences of rejection too and put themselves out there and get rejected in plenty of contexts also:
For instance, if a group of 3 girls who are all 8s go out and only 2 out of the 3 girls get attention from guys, won't that 3rd woman feel rejected? Yes of course she will, and that IS rejection of some sort which may put into her mind that she's not as pretty as her friends and affect her self esteem. And I swear down, every girl who has ever been out clubbing or bar hopping, however pretty, will tell you that they've had experiences like this.
And yes it does take guts to approach a girl, but it also takes guts to put yourself out there as a woman too- when you go out and dress up *even just on a daily basis*, you are making yourself vulnerable to other people's- especially men's judgement of your looks. And there the hammer may fall on your womanhood and sense of self worth if deemed not attractive by the men you meet and they choose to:
- Hit on your friends and act like they wish you weren't there/ignore you
- Actually tell you to your face that they find you unattractive
- Be outright rude towards you in a social setting because you're not deemed attractive enough to show any respect to
I don't even consider myself to be ugly at all, I'm pretty average, and I've had all these experiences. Yes, I've equally had experiences of being hit on and rejecting guys but the point is, that no gender has it easier than the other and please stop trying to make it seem like women have it easy when it comes to rejection.
haha okay, I see your point now!
ReplyDeleteMany of the male commentators seem to understand that women care about a partner's looks as well;perhaps not to the same extent that men care about women's looks, but physical appearance is still important to them nonetheless. Furthermore, a lot of men of all ages are attracted to and want to date the 18-22 female demographic, but when some of these men claim to be rejected by these younger women because not all young women want to date outside of their age group, they complain about how they can't get younger girls. So, if it's so important for some men to bag an 18-22 year old, why don't they start their search for marriage or a soulmate at an earlier age? Some people argue that men need to take until their late 20's to early 30's to build their careers, but when you think about, most male college grads are completed their degree and working by the time their 22. After a couple years of working hard, especially if they were fortunate enough to earn scholarships or have their parents pay their tuition, then it shouldn't be too hard to afford a decent apartment, car, and have some savings in the bank. If they pursued their masters degrees, then they could probably have all the of above by about age 25 or 26. If they find the right girl early on, then why do they need to sow their wild oats or play the field? Are those pursuits really worth forgoing someone who could be the girl of their dreams? Another benefit of men marrying young, is that even if he's not a pretty boy, he probably still looks as physically attractive as he'll ever be in his 20's and would then have an easier time attracting women also in their 20's. This would be an advantage for him, since it's know that women too value appearance.
ReplyDeleteWell here’s a female take on an experience I’ve had of being rejected one night, and with this illustrate why ‘rejection’ for a lot of us I feel is simply different and can be a lot worse….
ReplyDeleteIt wasn’t a particularly great night, but I was out with a few friends from University. The club we were in was pretty empty. I wouldn’t say I looked bad that night, but I didn’t look my best either and I would say that two out of the four girls I was with were more attractive than I was, by say, a couple of points on the scale, but not.
Anyways, I had separated from the group and when I came back, they were all dancing around and near this one guy [like I said, it was pretty empty]. I went over to them, and I was a little tipsy and started dancing. He took one look at me, got up, and left. I stepped out to the toilet a few minutes later, and the guy was standing by the bathrooms with his friends. Seeing me, he turned and said, ‘You’re a fucking minger […]’ which if you don’t know, in British slang means an ugly girl- and his friends all laughed. There was a group of about 3-4 of them, and I felt completely shocked and humiliated. I said nothing to my friends about what happened, put a brave face on and continued my night, but felt absolutely awful. When I got home, I burst into tears and spent the rest of the weekend in my dorm feeling pretty bad about myself and convinced that I was ugly and undesirable.
The thing that really upset me is I was just there to dance with my friends and have a good time and I was humiliated and called ugly. I didn’t approach him, didn’t try to dance with him and certainly didn’t have the presumption or expectation that the guy who humiliated me would be into me, I simply had to be in his vicinity for him to reject me. You’re describing experiences where YOU approached girls and were met by a negative response, however, I actually did nothing ‘wrong’ and was treated like dirt…and that’s how it is for a lot of girls on the average to below average scale: rejection comes in the form of sneers, disgusted and dirty looks from men, being ignored when you’re with your better looking friends and generally being treated as second rate- or worse, as a figure of ridicule and hate: all because a lot of men- even some of the least attractive- believe they’re entitled to women of a certain level of hotness which if you don’t meet in their eyes, they believe they have the right to dehumanize you for even being near them.
When women reject men and seem really turned off it’s often because they’re annoyed with the assumption on that man’s part on some level that he’s entitled to them- an assumption which he’s making by approaching the woman and initiating contact. In contrast, when men do the rejecting its often unprovoked and done on the basis that they are simply entitled to be in the presence of better looking women and are literally in some cases ANGRY that you’re even near them, so they’ll literally do things like call you ugly to your face, laugh at you, make fun of you in front of their friends because they feel its their right to: it’s like it’s YOUR JOB as a woman to be hot and to accommodate a man’s ‘needs’ to feel important, and you’re not doing your job in their eyes by not being hot enough.
What I’m trying to demonstrate is that men APPROACH to get rejected and do most of the initiating in interactions between the sexes, whereas women can get rejected and humiliated in very intense and public ways for simply doing nothing but failing to meet a man’s expectations looks wise.
That’s all I wanted to add. I mostly love this blog and think your observations are often ingenious and dead on but I think sometimes you fail to realise what a huge sense of entitlement a lot of men- including you judging by that story- have to what they perceive as the most attractive women, which at its worse- can lead to the kind of behaviour that I’ve described and unfairly puts all the onus on the woman to be ‘hot enough’ and instead of putting the onus on BOTH sexes to simply have a little respect for each other.
Im sorry to hear about your experience. Seriously, the last time I saw someone behave like this was in middle school. That guy has a DICK attitude. Fuck him.
DeleteThat's awful. The British 'uni lad' culture has a lot to answer for. He was most likely try to look a 'top lad' in front of his mates - a pathetic, insecure boy, not a man.
DeleteI'm a 24 year old man and I really hate women sometimes for rejecting me, but what that guy did to you was harsh and does not represent men as a whole. I personally would never do something like that.
DeleteThat goes beyond rejection. That guy obviously had issues and he attacked you because at some point in his life he was attacked and made to feel dehumanized. It is very sad that he lashed out his anger at you. I hope you know that you do not deserve that kind of treatment and that it is never acceptable for a man to treat a woman like that under any circumstance.
Delete^ agreed. Only hurt people want to hurt others - that may sound like a cliche but it's true.
DeleteI would bet he did that because a number of reasons, pick&mix at will:
DeleteOne of your friends turned him down in front of his mates, and this lashing out was more arrogant bravado than anything else
You have rejected one of them /been rejected by one of them
He wasn't breastfed by his mum as a kid / had an abusive father/ therefore developed to become point-blank stupid bully, with or without being drunk/high and ego-tripping on drugs
By being absolutely horrible to you, he thinks (TWISTED I know) he can control and exert power/dominance over you, and by association, your peers.
He got a misinterpretation of the line "treat them mean, keep them keen"
His peers dared him to, and afterwards he will probably have to do whatever else they ask
Etc etc etc....
Bottom line, none of this is personal.
* [...not] a huge tonne better looking than me, one was just better presented and the other wasn't dressed well, but has an above average figure i.e big butt and boobs and a small waist
ReplyDeleteIt feels like ouch, like very ouch actually... but no matter what we say the choice theirs in the end...
ReplyDeleteAs an attractive woman it can be demoralising to be hit on for sex by a string of men who think it is fine to focus on looks as more important than character or intelligence. I always feel uncomfortable rejecting men outright, but feel even more uncomfortable that men choose to focus on me as a body not a person. Men can turn ugly when rejected and it is awkward trying to let a man down nicely, despite the fact that he was blind drunk and spilling his drink on you, unable to string a sentence together, or already talking about the great 69er he would perform. Instead of hitting on the most targets, maybe it would pay to to be honest about the level of compatibility or their approach at the time. In turn, I have spent a chunk of my life as a single woman and been questioned if I am lesbian or strange if I prefer to remain by myself instead of hopping into bed with a virtual stranger or someone who has worked the floor looking for his sexual needs to be gratified. Rejection hurts, but so does being with someone who is incapable of offering intimacy, a mature relationship with equal give and take or a two-way conversation that involves active listening and reflection. The collapsing of sex with intimacy leaves a lot to be desired.
ReplyDeleteHow to Reject a Guy at a Bar - Part 1
DeleteI don't know that when a guy sees you at a bar his first thoughts when he sees you include, "what a mind on that girl." I doubt it ever is. I don't understand why so many women claim to be intelligent yet they don't understand the part physical attraction plays. That's not a sign of intelligence at all!
DeleteIntimacy exists, but you have to know how to find it. Maybe consider things about you that make it such a common occurrence for such an "attractive" woman who is "intelligent" to attract that kind of guy?
I also think it's kind of shitty to be so critical of a guy who hits on you at a bar or is drunk there. People get drunk at bars, and even great guys (and great gals) get drunk at bars. Unless you're going to a shit bar, I doubt guys are totally wasted. If you don't like being hit on by men at bars, you have two options: (1) don't go there, or (2) learn to say no (Andrew's post he references). Also, if a guy shows the initial physical attraction, how more impressed do you think he'll be if he realizes there's a brain inside your head once he gets to know you? I think it's bad to be so dismissive of a guy at a bar especially when it's impossible for a guy to know of all of your supposed redeeming qualities. I'm not saying you should have sex w them, you shouldn't, but recognizing the courage (even if it's liquid courage) and effort the guy is making when he makes a move is something you should be flattered by.
@Chris60
Delete“As an attractive woman it can be demoralising to be hit on for sex by a string of men who think it is fine to focus on looks as more important than character or intelligence.”
Non-sequitor. Your morale should be predicated on your behavior not on the behavior of others. Men will always hit on women for sex and focus on their looks – it is the way they are built, so chastising them for this is futile.
Do you know what would be more demoralising than men hitting on you for sex? If no men ever hit on you at all.
“Men can turn ugly when rejected and it is awkward trying to let a man down nicely, despite the fact that he was blind drunk and spilling his drink on you, unable to string a sentence together”
I agree that this is unfortunate: it’s just really, really difficult to approach several women in a night and take quite a few knock-backs and move on to the next woman as if nothing happened, whilst constantly maintaining a positive, cheerful disposition. Hence, many/most guys need some liquid courage.
“In turn, I have spent a chunk of my life as a single woman and been questioned if I am lesbian or strange if I prefer to remain by myself instead of hopping into bed with a virtual stranger or someone who has worked the floor looking for his sexual needs to be gratified.”
No, this is not strange – in fact it is how most women operate. Women prefer to abstain and wait whilst looking for a man they deem worthy of her attention. Men, however, will simply drop their standards whilst “looking for his sexual needs to be gratified” rather than abstain.
@ Emily L
“ If you don't like being hit on by men at bars, you have two options: (1) don't go there, or (2) learn to say no”
Agreed – it seems so simple really.
“I'm not saying you should have sex w them, you shouldn't”
I disagree. I think you should have sex with them. Lol.
Hm, I don't know. From other posts, I'm to believe that women have it easy when they want sexual attention. So, to my mind, it should hurt MORE for a woman to be rejected, since it's supposed to be "easy" for her, as a female.
ReplyDeleteI must note I laughed out loud - let me caveat that with the fact I was laughing at your brilliant analogy of lash out "Like a 5th grader, I wanted to tell them I didn't give a fuck because they were ugly and I didn't want to talk to them anyway..." - because it was perfect. Rejection brings us to our most insecure self and yes 5th grade was pretty bad sigh. I have wondered how difficult it must be for men to have to make the approach...you do have my sympathies. More often than not, I am that girl that is never approached...I mean 97% of the time and yes that's a relatively specific percentage. I'm an attractive girl, in good shape, long blonde hair, I dress well, I'm friendly... Friends tell me men assume I will say no...blah blah :) I have to smile as it really is impossible to say why they I am left to my own devices when out. I choose to enjoy my friends, dance, have fun regardless. Perhaps here is no science to it. Men must become tired of approaching or weigh the odds of success and just walk on by. Rejection comes in all forms and none of it feels good.
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ReplyDelete