_____________________________________________
Andrew,
I'd greatly appreciate any insight you would share about my question:
How do I respond when the guy I am with is flirting and/or staring at other women when we are in situations such as dinner with just the two of us in a restaurant? I see it as a red flag and dismiss the potential for a relationship with men who do this at any relationship stage, and try to accept that they are just not interested enough in me by displaying such disrespect. How do I conduct myself with dignity when this happens? In such situations, I never confronted them about it, I just stopped looking at them, tried to get the meal to end rapidly, and distanced myself by pretty much ignoring them afterwards. Please let me know what I can specifically say or do to address the disrespect I feel when placed in that situation, to potentially give the relationship a chance, depending on how the man conducts himself afterwards. Thank you so much.
Thank you again and have a good day,
Cassidy
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Cassidy,
There are a few things to consider when it comes to your man and other women:
- First, recognize that men are always going to be attracted to other women and will look at them, whether or not you see them doing it. The real problem (in most instances) is not his sexual interest in other women, but his lack of discretion and his carelessness about your feelings or reputation.
- Realize that your leverage over the situation depends on how serious your relationship with the guy is. If it is just a date with someone new, there is nothing you can or should do about it other than suffer through it and let it influence your decision to accept or reject him the next time he asks you out. If he is a boyfriend or spouse, however, you have the right to demand that he stops (see below).
- Realize that you have a right to a man's attention when he has chosen to be with you. He shouldn't be letting his eyes wander or flirt with other girls when he is with you. If it happens occasionally, by accident, fine; but if he isn't attracted to you enough to keep his eyes in one place, he should break up with you. He is a coward if he does not.
- Very few men look at other women without any regard for the girl they are with. Usually, this is what happens: an incredibly attractive women walks by, and the guy you are with slips up. Despite his efforts to resist, he looks, taking the risk that you might see him. Although I don't think women can completely understand the temptation of visual stimuli for men, his temptation to look is similar to your temptation to bend the rules on your diet once in a while - it is hard to resist.
- Flirting takes greater intention, is much easier for a man to resist, and should therefore be treated with greater severity.
In other words, maintain an attitude of "Men will be men, but I have boundaries and I would appreciate it if you could look this way please..." The key is to remain calm in these situations, but also to make sure that he knows you don't approve.
Now, if a guy isn't just making an occasional slip-up, but is simply letting his eyes wander everywhere all the time, or flirting with women openly in your presence, you will need a commensurately stronger approach. This is how you should deal with it:
- Your first move should be to point it out to him: "You realize that I see you checking out all these girls right? Do you know how that makes me feel?" This should be a rhetorical question, but if he answers "no," tell him honestly how you feel.
- If that doesn't stop him (which it probably won't, but at least he will be primed for this next step), you should make a demand: "Look, [his name], it makes me look bad when you are checking out every girl that walks by, and it doesn't do anything for my self-esteem either. You need to stop." Again, I am assuming you are in a relationship with the guy in question here, which gives you the leverage to make a demand like this.
- That might have an effect. If it continues further, tell him the same thing again, but add "...if you don't like me enough to keep your eyes off other women, at least have the balls to break up with me and go chase them like a real man. Don't just stare at them from the safety of a relationship that you clearly don't want." That should get his attention.
- If at that point he still doesn't stop, break up with him. End of story. You don't deserve a man who constantly reminds you of your inadequacies, or, more importantly, one who disregards your feelings when you openly tell him they are being hurt.
Andrew
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1. other Reader Questions
"The real problem (in most instances) is not his sexual interest in other women, but his lack of discretion and his carelessness about your feelings or reputation."
ReplyDeleteThis is bad advice. The real problem IS his sexual interest in other women, or more specifically, his willingness to act on that interest. There is only one scenario in which averting his gaze is good advice, and that is if it is accompanied by lust. Looking at other women is largely irrelevant in a genuine relationship...what matters is whether or not looking becomes lusting and lusting becomes acting. And girls, you need to be absolutely sure it is lust and not just you jumping to the worst possible conclusion due to feelings of inadequacy.
"Realize that you have a right to a man's attention when he has chosen to be with you."
This is bad advice also. Choosing to be with a woman is not an endowment of "rights". If a man has chosen to be with you, both you and he are equally responsible for maintaining interest. If you fail to keep his interest by being boring, selfish, churlish, expectant, narcissistic, entitled, demanding, bitchy or just plain stupid, he owes you nothing but a "thank you and good night".
"his temptation to look is similar to your temptation to bend the rules on your diet once in a while"
More bad advice. His "temptation" to look may not be a temptation at all, just a passing interest, or not even interest but curiosity, or not even curiosity but a place to point his eyes, or a dozen other innocuous reasons he might be looking. Newsflash, girls: casual women are nowhere near as threatening to relationships as you might think. She needs to be the hottest of hotness sitting in his lap to be threatening, in which case you need to get him outta there fast. In any case, a man has sovereignty over the direction of his gaze and it is not for any other person to impose restrictions on it or assign meaning to it.
"Flirting takes greater intention, is much easier for a man to resist, and should therefore be treated with greater severity."
Now we're getting somewhere. Girls, this is advice you should take. A man who flirts is both interested and acting on his interest. It doesn't mean he's being unfaithful, mind, but it would be wise to stay by his side. Your presence will be enough for the other woman to back off in most cases. If he does it often and in a way you find uncomfortable, then you do it too. He'll stop soon enough.
More in a minute...
continuing...
ReplyDelete""...it makes me look bad when you are checking out every girl that walks by, and it doesn't do anything for my self-esteem either. You need to stop." "
No. Whether the girl looks bad or not is has nothing to do with the guy. How she is being treated by him however, is something else. A guy that repeatedly looks at other women in an unambiguously sexual way is not respecting you. It's time to assert relationship boundaries discuss your shared values. Or did you just assume things? Uh-oh.
Girls, your self-esteem is your own affair. If you think attaching your self-esteem to the actions of another is a good idea then you need to take time out from relationships as you will cause people harm. Men are not here to prop up your self-esteem. Your man is a flawed creature just like you, just like everyone else, so put your faith in something more than people.
""...if you don't like me enough to keep your eyes off other women, at least have the balls to break up with me and go chase them like a real man.""
This is just evil. How to shame a man in a sexual way is the most irresponsible and misandric thing you can teach them. Girls, sexual shaming language is psychological abuse, nothing less. The damage it can cause, not just to a man but his future partners and even his children, is profound. This is language born in Satan's nursery - language that is used specifically and maliciously to hurt someone. DON'T USE IT - EVER. If you use language in this way, especially to prop up your self esteem then you deserve the lifelong wrath of God. And if you ever use the term "real man" as a weapon against a man expect to be treated like the the black-hearted villain that you are.
""Don't just stare at them from the safety of a relationship that you clearly don't want.""
This is a risky move. Not just for him but for her. Girls, a man doesn't show that he wants a relationship with you by looking at you. He looks at everyone. He shows it by BEING with you and not sleeping with other women. It is that simple. Looking at other women is so utterly benign an action with most men it's like breathing, so unbunch your panties and spend your energy on weightier matters.
Interestingly, looking at other women in the safety of a relationship is better for you. He's going to do it anyway so better he does it within the relationship where there's a healthy bond of trust than where there is none. By all means express your feelings if he does it in a way that is genuinely hurtful but if you uphold the relationship of trust above petty indiscretions WITHOUT WORDS, his conscience will bring him in line. If he is not unfaithful in body then the relationship is fine. It may not be perfect, mind, but it's worth persevering. If you present yourself as having rights or entitlements and savage him with cutting words because your self-esteem is being challenged then you're the problem and he's better off without you.
"If at that point he still doesn't stop, break up with him. End of story. You don't deserve a man who constantly reminds you of your inadequacies, or, more importantly, one who disregards your feelings when you openly tell him they are being hurt."
Break up with him only if he deliberately and wilfully hurts you (and make absolutely sure you know it is deliberate and wilful - NOTE: succumbing to temptation is neither)or if he regularly breaks an agreement of trust. But if your feelings of inadequacy are the reason for breaking up then you are the one in the wrong. No one is responsible for your feelings of inadequacy but you, unless they have deliberately and wilfully sought to undermine them. My advice to young women in this situation: take some time out to get yourself into better shape internally, looking at the specific reasons you feel inadequate and seek independent help for them. Start dating again only when you have a measure of control over how others affect you.
"If he is not unfaithful in body then the relationship is fine."
DeleteI bet you have awesome relationships.
I have one - the same one for the last 15 years. My wife agrees with me, reluctantly, but certainly in the end. What's your point?
DeleteJacob Ian Stalk: I feel sorry for your wife. You sound like you are a lot of hard work.
DeleteAll relationships take work. How hard that work is depends on how selfish and falsely entitled we were to begin with.
DeleteNow, are you just going to toss in these ridiculous ad hominems or is there something less vacuous coming?
If you are a happily married man of 15 years, why the hell are you reading this blog?
DeleteJacob, my point was that if you only focus on sexual fidelity, you neglect emotional fidelity, and your relationship is certain to suffer when you do so (as it could if you fell prey to excess pornography, for example, hence the link).
DeleteThe fact that your relationship has lasted 15 years doesn't make me think you are right about your comments; it makes me skeptical that you actually allow those ideas to govern your relationship. Something tells me that you aren't actually eyeing women regularly in front of your partner.
Natasha, the same reason happily married women love hearing dating sob stories from their single, desperate friends - a sense of smugness and relief that you don't have to go through all this shit any longer.
DeleteI didn't know they loved it. Fuckers.
DeleteAfter doing a Google search on this guy Jacob Ian Stalk, anything he has to say is now colored in my view. He is prominent on Christian men's rights web sites, one's tag line reads: "Christian men who reject modernity, feminism, and churchian weak-sauce." And I mean no disrespect, but I can't take anything seriously from any guy who continues to believe in 2,000+ patriarchal mythology as fact telling women how they should behave towards men. Consider the source.
Delete"Consider the source."
DeleteIndeed, Anonymous. Consider it indeed.
That sucks. I haven't had that happen to me that way, and I hope it never does. I have seen those situations though where a man is sitting there clearly not listening to his wife or gf because he is instead staring at every attractive woman who passes by. I guess the only thing that stops them from playing the field (at least to her knowledge) is the desire to not be alone once the sheets are cold. Still, they should just have open relationships a la Will and Jada. It's what they clearly seem to want anyway. Then they get both. I like the advice here though. I've been slowly going through all the articles.
DeleteJacob: Glad to know you are okay with your wife eyeing every decently attractive man whenever you go out rather than being engaged in conversation with you. It's really refreshing to know that your self-esteem isn't at all affected by those types of dismissive actions from the woman you have happily(?) been married to for the past 15 years whose . I always thought that if you truly didn't care what your partner thought or how they felt about your habits with them, then you didn't really love them and potentially might not even know what real love even feels like. That maybe you were settling for something less ideal than what they could get if they put forth more effort either because you needed to feel that you could keep doing something your partner doesn't like in order to feel good (for whatever reason), or because you were not sure you could find better relationship material. But you, Jacob, have shown me the error of my wayward thoughts. Thank you so much for helping me understand that men who are disinterested enough to blatantly ogle other women in front of me are really just expressing themselves and it has nothing to do with his lack of respect for how I feel. Also, it's so great to hear that I do not have the right to a man's attention even if he has chosen to be with (and REMAIN with) me rather than breaking up. That makes complete sense. Why should I, or any other woman or man, expect to hold the attention of the partner that claims to want to be with them? That's just odd.
Jacob you are so out of tune. You have no respect for women the boys will be boys attitude is no longer good enough, or a legit excuse. It is insulting to the woman you are with to constantly check out women that come into eye view. And making eye contact and smiling, and keep glancing like a little shy boy is ok too? Even if it a business meeting between a man and a wome, this is unacceptable behaviour and insulting to all the women involved.
DeleteAll this 'eyeing' talk is ridiculous. We both love to 'people' watch. We socialize with other couples and single people all in a non sexual way. I compliment most of my wife's friends. "hey, beautiful!" followed by a hug is how we all enjoy seeing each other and hanging out together. Goodness!
DeleteDid I stumble onto some ultra conservative right wing site. Sure sounds like it. Get over yourself, curiousity killed the cat, not the relationship. Jealousy has no place in a marriage. Open communication does.
All this 'eyeing' talk is ridiculous. We both love to 'people' watch. We socialize with other couples and single people all in a non sexual way. I compliment most of my wife's friends. "hey, beautiful!" followed by a hug is how we all enjoy seeing each other and hanging out together. Goodness!
DeleteDid I stumble onto some ultra conservative right wing site. Sure sounds like it. Get over yourself, curiousity killed the cat, not the relationship. Jealousy has no place in a marriage. Open communication does.
Jacob Ian Stalk - I think you should be writing this blog, you are right on point! Don't like to badmouth people but this Andrew guy rarely has any idea what he is talking about.
ReplyDeleteI think Andrew's doing a reasonable job. His output, grace and courage under fire is worthy of the title 'blogger' and deserving of respect by those for whom he writes. I personally wouldn't have the the patience to write for the wailing princesses who never learned that women were never the prize that Hollywood made them out to be.
DeleteThankfully, the era of female entitlement is coming to an end, thanks to the women who think themselves as somehow in possession of the blessed fount of life because they are women, who treat men as savage beasts that are somehow privileged to partake of it. This dragon-child, the entitled feminine, the bastard child of Nietzscheanism and Darwinism, born in the incubus of 20th century Hollywood has had its day. This is due in large part to the blogosphere and tolerant, gracious men like our host Andrew.
Huzzah for the disinfecting keyboards of the internet and the temperate shepherds who wield their crooks wisely!
Anonymous
DeleteI just can’t understand why Andrew gets such a hard time here from some people. I think he’s providing a great service, as he explains how many young men actually do think regarding sex and relationships (men with options anyway).
When I was much younger (14 – 20) I really struggled with women which consequentially impacted my mental health. Throughout my 20’s I had to learn what works with women and what doesn’t through constant observation, rigorous analysis and most importantly trial and error. Now that I’m 29 I am quite comfortable with women and I agree with practically all of his posts. Like Andrew I’m always amazed at how naïve women – even very intelligent women - can be with men. I feel a bit sorry for them and think the tips here are very useful to enable them to exert more control on their relationships.
Good advice regarding the wandering eyes Andrew.
Thomas: You say that women are naive, but women are fed by media throughout life to think that there is a fairytale prince out there, a soulmate, which is not the case. We all have our 'flaws' and no one is completely perfect for anyone.
DeleteAlso, women are biologically different. We are 'wired' to act differently to men due to hormones amongst other things. I would highly recommend that women read about the hormone Oxytocin and how it impacts on women after they've had sex with a man. Women start feeling a connection to the man even sometimes when she didn't have interest in him previously.
As Andrew has pointed out, it is important to wait with having sex with a guy until commitment, or the woman might turn into a psychological mess which at least biologically isn't her fault.
Wow. If I had gotten this far down and seen this comment of Jacob's as well, I would not have even bothered to respond. There is never any reasoning with that type of mentality in any case :-/...
DeleteWow,such frequent posts, thanks a lot Andrew - i'm really liking this, keep up the great work!
ReplyDeleteand Jocob Ian Stalk - although you do have a point about whether we girls should worry about guys looking at other girls, the point of Andrew's post is to address the reader's question (whch is HOW to stop him looking, rather than should she worry). But this comment is just ridiculous though lool:
"""...if you don't like me enough to keep your eyes off other women, at least have the balls to break up with me and go chase them like a real man.""...The damage it can cause, not just to a man but his future partners and even his children, is profound. This is language born in Satan's nursery - language that is used specifically and maliciously to hurt someone. DON'T USE IT - EVER. If you use language in this way, especially to prop up your self esteem then you deserve the lifelong wrath of God"
Ridiculous is it? Then try an experiment with me. Reverse and adapt the phrase so it delivers a similar insult to a woman, allowing for psychosexual differences:
Delete"if you don't like me enough to stop wishing I was a better man, at least be submissive while you bear my children like a real woman."
It stings, doesn't it. It's also a generational curse under the right circumstances.
Maybe I'm an idoit, but your rebuttal makes no sense. The commentary on this blog, has really gone down the gutter.
DeleteAh, solipsism. Another bankable phenomenon. There's a reason it was given its very own word, dontcha know?
DeleteTo the maladroit solipsist: the world is not designed to make sense to you.
Jacob Ian Stalk you are frightening. Go do your Bible thumping elsewhere.
DeleteThink your advice is pretty much spot on.Ive been out with my girlfriends and they will comment on a girl showing excess cleavage/tiny mini skirt etc so I wouldnt expect a guy not to notice these things.
ReplyDeleteWhere it crosses the line for me is if a guy on a date is persistently looking at other women,commenting on how they look.
I feel my time is valuable, if Im giving a guy my undivided attention he should do the same when he is with me.
Its not necessarily related to self esteem but to the level of respect I expect in a relationship.
I think there's nothing to argue and put so much emphasis on every advices that you post in here and let these come up like battle of the egos. What's good is that we are helping each other to have a better relationship, cannot be perfect coz there are no perfect relationships, but these advices are for us to consider if what's best in our own situation. That's why we are here coz we need another's opinions about our issues. It doesn't mean we it's always right but I guess we are still responsible of our own choices and what we want in our own relationships. It doesn't have to be like pointing fingers on who's advice is better and who's advice is wrong. We are all thinking creatures and we see things differently in most aspect. We have to respect each other's opinions and what he thinks is right but then, with utter knowledge and consideration, think of what you want and what is best advice for yourself. All the advices here have a point. Take those that best suit you.
ReplyDeleteHave a happy and wonderful 2013 to all !:)
Andrew, I must say... I'm very glad you don't cater to an audience of Conservative Christian/know-it-all/married men. Kudos to you and please keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteActually, I am a conservative Christian woman and I can tell you that if Jacob actually were to open his Bible he'd see where it says that for a man to look at another woman with lust is to actually have committed adultery with her. It also says that love is not selfish. If the person you are dating or married to says that something (even if it seems ridiculous to you) is hurtful to them why do it if you really do love them? God didn't put women on this earth to be abused by men as we so, so many times are. Which is why we need blogs like this. So, Jacob, I guess you need to become a real man (like Jesus was) before you can spout your selfish crap! I pity your wife.
DeleteAndrew Thank you for the post and honestly the girl has a right to demand attention but it also has to do with posture and such. When you are on a date with a guy and you own a room their eyes will never want to dart away. I have tried both ways with my fiance and the times I own the room and am done up he only looks at the guys walking past to make sure they know I'm his. :) Keep up the awesome work!
ReplyDeleteWhat about the other side of the coin.What if you date a guy who is somewhat shy but is very attractive, so women check him out all the time (some of whom are hotter than yourself, god damn it) I'm pretty sure he's aware of it but pretends not to be. You're basically dating out of your 'league'. What would be an appropriate action here? Just ignore it like the elephant in the room?
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI quess the same applies if he is checking other womens profiles on facebook and 'likes' their photos in spite of me expressing my discomfort of seing all that activity... I did 'cut him off' eventually because it didn't feel right to me, but would like your opinion on that. I'm sure many women are facing similar issues with internet infidelity as well.
Thank you
Andrew, I agree with all of your points except the one that we shouldn't be concerned with his sexual interest in other women.. Even if he doesn't act on them it is not ok to drool over other women and want to be with them. Saying "well, she's really pretty" is different from thinking "wow, the things I'd like to do with her". I personally am completely sick of hearing all the lame excuses for not having any self control.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm interesting lols I'm glad at the least I'm not the only person searching for answers to age old questions of men being men forming relationships with women being women...
ReplyDeleteSo not being as wise as many of you I just thought I might give my two cents from making many mistakes, but always trying to find ways of having a positive, loving relationship with a woman. : )
Don't lie.... to yourself or the person your with. If you want to f..... other people, be open about it. They may dump you right there on the spot. Fair enough, just because to want to get freaky with other people doesn't mean the person your with has to accept it or continue to be with you. Being in a relationship isn't an obligation or a contract, its a choice. Two (or more if your into that sort of thing) choosing to be with each other, each day through each situation that comes up, good and bad. Untill if and when one, both or all choose not to. Talk..... not telling someone something important to you is still kinda lying, in that its preventing them from knowing as much information about you as they can, in order to make a fair choice of staying with you or not. The other side of that is listen, try not to judge, but do try to understand...them...not just what they are saying but what they are meaning. Let's face it sometimes being honest is hard, if you do care for someone make it as easy as you can for them by being as open, understanding and accepting as you can. Remembering that you don't have to accept they feel that way and have to put up with it. But accept that this is indeed the way they feel and as an individual, an adult they are entitled to their own thoughts and feelings as you are. Sooooooo if you can both/all speak openly to each other, and trust each other to be honest about the way you feel, your thoughts, cares and concerns then your relationship should be peachy : ) lols well hopefully it will better than not talking..... also if you can get to know yourself, (I know cheesy ay) but true. Specifically what you want out of a relationship with someone as opposed to what you Need. What you need as a person, what you understand to be who and what you are; your morals, idea of respect, views on love and commitment, Sence of self worth, spirituality, physical requirements, intellectual stimuli, yes what you need to feel the super sexy desireable creature you are....all of that is a must. Non negotiable. Any one who loves you will want to nurture those aspects of your person, your individuality your soul. They will respect and appreciate them. They may not agree with all of them lols but they will respect and accept them as being the essence of who you are and what you are. Soooo that leaves wants, you want a super model missus, a billionaire boyfriend, a health nut husband a nutrtionist wife. You want your woman to wear full make 24/7, your man to shave (everywhere) everyday (or at least shower properly) and everything else.......that is negotiable, ideally you get it all lols but unlikely. All you need is your needs being fullfilled and enough of your wants catered to, for you to make a choice to join into that relationship. What ever the nature of that relationship is and to stay in it.
So ladies your man is scoping other women, well that's a given. The question is how much and why? If its too much ie its affecting your true needs, for respect, appreciation, feeling desire able loved etc. Then tell him and find out why he's doing it. May be its a need for him? In which case perhaps you would both be happier with someone else........ or may be its a want and if after explaining yourself he understands your need and so the need for it to be different, you can figure out a way/s where he can still feel like a male king of the jungle, but you can feel like the queen (or princess) you are. The mother of life, goddess of desire, ruler of men, mistress of enlightenment, keeper of the flames, etc.
You'll notice ladies, you get more props because.....you deserve them ; )
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DeleteHi Emily : ) tough question lols I think that you can't love without listening to your heart.......but that not listening to your head often leads to heartache...? Lols no I'm not copping out! (Well only partly) soo yea it seems that a combination gives us the best chance of finding and keeping a loving caring relationship : ) personally I don't believe you ever know for sure..? Though 50-60 years as a happy couple would give you a rough idea, I'm sure ; ) honestly there is no formula to garrauntee finding the perfect mate! But if you find it, we'll write a book and be squillionaires! Lols everything's a risk, we don't know what's going to happen in our lives or our relationships...we hope and we try to get closer to long term happiness each time. Another thought is, your 'gut feeling. That's the truth to you..... it lies underneath all the hope and dreams, fears, worries, expectations, learning, experience wise words and good advice that make up all the considerations we use to make our decisions. Its hard to hear it amongst the chaos of emotion, thought and daily life challenges. But iv had some success in hearing it in that little silence before the answer... (lols not being silly) as an example I asked myself once (well many times truthfully) whether I loved 'her'? And in a split second I had come up with a hundred reasons why I did and a hundred why I didn't, and two hundred questions about what love was and how it could be measured. Buuut actually just before that, in that tiny moment before my mind kicked into gear, I heard/felt a voice/feeling that answered the question. And it didn't seem to come from my head but from somewhere else, from inside of me..... and instinctively I knew it was my truth. Lols I realize this must sound like a garbled rant but I hope that there may be some part that may be of use? Some food for thought? All the the best Em : )
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@ Emily
Delete“Do you think you know, with a high probability or at least reasonable certainty, what love is?”
How deep :) I have a fairly reductionist view of all human emotions and behaviors. I.e. everything we experience and feel are simply chemicals mixing in our brains. Therefore, the feelings of happiness, depression, excitement…and so it follows; love, are simply chemical reactions in our bodies/brains. So my supposition is that love is simply a chemical mechanism evolved from the fact that human infants are so vulnerable and therefore need intensive parental care. I.e. it’s nature’s way of keeping two parents together to raise kids. Nothing more (how romantic eh?).
So my thought is; if we can control the way the brain experiences and processes certain emotions (i.e. through ant-depressants, cognitive behavioral therapy etc.), and if love is just another chemical mechanism; could we simply manage to train/medicate ourselves into feeling love? Some lucky drug manufacturer could become a squillionaire! Loi.
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DeleteInteresting discussion. Do you think religion aka god plays a role in how people fall in love? Some people are meant to be together, and sometimes it makes me wonder whether struggles two people endure are from anti-god forces. Curious.
Delete@ Emily L
Delete“…Beyond the molecular level, I think the chemical interactions and variables that prevent or promote those chemical interactions are essential pieces to the puzzle… So while I’m not entirely optimistic about the drug-induced version of love, I’m not entirely pessimistic either”
So your theory is that on a basic molecular level love is a chemical reaction interacting with external stimuli. And as this chemical reaction is contingent on these external stimuli, simply creating a pill divorced from them cannot possibly induce the same effect. OK, I can agree to that. Maybe the drug manufacturer won’t become a squillionaire after all :(
“I subscribe to the Shakespeare (love doesn’t alter when it alteration finds) and the Whitney Houston (if somebody loves you, won’t they always love you) philosophies, because to me that’s what true love is. When someone loves you, they love you for who you are, and they help you become a better person (I did say I’m an idealist :)). They forgive you when you fuck up, and the love never goes away. It’s perfect because in spite of imperfections it makes sense (rationally), and it lasts”.
So you see a distinction between the short-lived chemical love (infatuation?) and true love. That is a useful distinction and one I can accept.
However, I’m not sure I can go-along with your understanding of true love. You seem to see the concept as synonymous with unconditional love (i.e. no matter what happens, or whatever either party does, the love will remain constant). For me, I think that unconditional love can only extend to relationships among unequals; i.e. parent/child relationships. When it comes to romantic love (eros) there must be an understanding that both parties view each other as respectful equals; and therefore it’s conditional.
If love is conditional, it follows that it can only continue as long as the attached conditions remain constant. When these conditions change love fades away. Unless the individuals are self-aware enough to counteract/grow with these changes I suppose.
I dunno Emily. Something tells me we’re probably not gonna solve one of the greatest human mysteries here on our own :)
Besides, I’m somewhat out of my comfort zone here; I find it much easier discussing sex, porn, dating dynamics and leagues!
@ Jo H
“Do you think religion aka god plays a role in how people fall in love?”
My hunch says yes: I remember reading somewhere that scientific evidence seems to indicate that some people are actually genetically wired to being spiritual or not spiritual.
Religious belief, however - as distinct from spiritual belief - is more dependent on cultural factors and apparently religious beliefs can actually change the way the brain works.
So through a combination of our genetic wiring and the brain's thinking influenced by religious beliefs, I have no doubt that religion/belief in God plays a role in how people experience love.
“Some people are meant to be together, and sometimes it makes me wonder whether struggles two people endure are from anti-god forces”
I’m not so sure about that theory really; I suppose it depends on your philosophical/theological outlook on life. “Meant to be” and “anti-god forces” are not concepts that I can easily fathom to be honest.
Goodness!!! Lols an idealistic mathematician, a romantic rationalist and a spiritualist seeking Gods hand in the battles of love........... I can see the squillions rolling in people! : ) what a team! Lols so please don't shoot me if I suggest your all right : ) (the optimism of that should appeal to you Emily) hmmm soo much generous intelligent thinking! Emily, unconditionally and without doubt........yes. ; ) in that instance, in that moment....yes, and what a beautiful moment it is....sigh. But I don't believe that 'our' love is unconditional or beyond doubt.. simply because we are human and imperfect. Actually I think 'true' love, the ideal of love that you speak of is perhaps better understood by our friend Jo...? I imagine that true love is in the realm of God. If God is perfect, then his love is perfect. As flawed human beings I think we are incapable of constant perfect love.....but that in moments we can experience true love or even manifest true love, in thought or deed. Example laying down your life to save a strangers, or forgiving someone who has done you a terrible painful injustice.... Perhaps t true beauty of love lies in her power to be more than one specific entity. She does not need to be perfect..just enough : ) as long as she is love and not lust or liking or enfatuation etc then she will still bear fruit and bring some joy to those she touches. If love were one thing only, then it would follow that if any of us poor wretched creatures failed to find it our lives would be devoid of the happiness she gives? Example if a couple are in 'love' but one dies does that mean the remaining sad soul is doomed to a life without love? I dont believe so. So in answer Em I don't believe there is a mid point or 'medium' (the full extent of my maths learning, I was awful at math lol) I believe there is a turning point. Where one makes t decision, intuitively, intelligently, spiritual, chemically, consciously or sub consciously to accept that they love someone or indeed some thing....a cause or even an ideal. As to how perfect that love is, really boils down to the fact it was perfect 'enough' to be understood as love in that moment. : ) after that....? "Love is begun by time, And time qualifies the spark and fire of it” - Will
DeleteThomas I agree with you theory and your thought, if 'love' was a product of pure electro-chemical interaction and it is manifested primarily through that interaction. But we are not merely flesh and bone my friend : ) and love is not a chemical......it is magical. I really mean that, it belongs in the world of the 'super'natural, resides next to faith and belief. (I also think courage and determination hang out there on the weekends) personally some quality ecstacy does a pretty good imitation ; ) but I think loves a drug beyond mans manufacturing capabilities.
Hi Jo, well interesting thought? I couldn't say deffinitly not I guess? If one follows the belief that God is indeed love, then an antI-God entity would likely be anti love......... but personally I think there's a danger that all life's challenges could all be attributed to 'anti-god' activity and that might cloud someone's judgement. Is it not possible that God wishes to allow the oppurtunity for a relationship to be strengthened and solidified through trial and tribulation? As for two people being 'meant to be ? I have my personal reservations about the statement lols don't get me wrong, I like t idea... but only if I end up with t person I'm meant to be with! ; ) perhaps I'm just too much of a cynic lols but I just think that we can love others in many different ways and that the 'special' love for a very special someone simply means we were lucky enough to find someone special to share that love with : )
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DeleteLols indeed....... ; ) the only problem is that what may seem reasonable and smart at the time may be realised as unreasonable and foolish later, with the benefit of hindsight.......lols or perhaps that only happens to me...?
DeleteAnd as for magical perhaps my choice of word shows my illiteracy and the narrow reach of my poor vocabulary? lols or perhaps not, I'll let you be the judge. I use magical to identify an intangible force, that tho unsubstantial and mysterious is still incredibly powerful. Our understanding of it is infantile, babes grasping at a concept so deep in our psyche, so vast in its complication that we can't possibly understand or fully comprehend it. And so we are forced to take a leap of faith...... we can't read the future, so risk is implicit. We are human, with humanities weaknesses and frailties so our love cannot be perfect in its consistancy or completeness, we can only understand love as an existing sensation, belief, decision. We can't control it, turn it on or off at will, strengthen it our turn it down. We have some limited control over our rational thought but our hearts aren't rational...and cannot be controlled by thought alone. Sooo if we can't fully comprehend it, control it or create it at whim, but believe in it enough for us to make life changing decisions based upon it.........well I think that's kind of magical lols kinda crazy as well....but yea pretty magical ; )
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DeleteLols of course, I'm not (quite) hypocritical enough to give an opinion without having any experiance of it ; ) The "not knowing" of love is, imo simply another way of saying "faith". A belief in an intangible concept. (Yes I know that 'love' can be physically manifested) but at some point beyond rational decision making, aside from science, quantifiable factors and measureable forces there is a place for humans to make decisions based on belief. 'Happy are those that believe but have not seen' Imo they are happy because they are have 'risked' they have gone beyond their ability to comprehend and have chosen to have 'faith' ...... in answer, sometimes it has ended well and i jave shared something very special with someone and sometimes it has ended painfully. For one or both parties. But always that feeling of magic has been a guide to help me know that atherelationship I am in is more than an agreement between consenting parties based on the evidence provided that shows a higher then average probability of happiness for an acceptable period of time... lols and you Emily, assuming that you "know" what has gotten you into your relationships and have avoided the craziness of unknown magic......how have they turned out?
DeleteLols p.s I'm not saying abandon common sence or rational thought.... lols (just in case) but saying that love requires some risk and that it is the willingness to take that risk for someone that is imo magial.. : )
DeleteP.p.s? You appear vEry weary of any feelings outside of what can be rationalised and logically sound. Do you believe you have ever been in love? (Not being cheaky lol serious question)
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DeleteOh and yes 2% is fair hahahah
ReplyDeleteP.s I think your heart will make your final decision for you Emily......irregardless of your rational tests. "Love the lord your God with all your heart" first........then soul, strength and mind following. Coincidental...?
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DeletePerhaps..... I just thought it was interesting that it was interesting that the first means of loving was identified as the heart....I think that was not coincidental, and this identifies the manner and the process through which humans love.. by him who created them : )
DeleteSorry lols ie. We have been discussing the concept of true love and what it consists of, whether it be found through the heart or the mind, or through both. Here we are given components of "love" and the order they are given is I think indicative of the importance of each. From the being who created us And love........ so IMO not so distinguishable? : )
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DeleteHahaha of course.. : ) I suspect that despite our best efforts we may not come up with the squillion dollar answer, but I have learned some new ways of looking at love and relationships from this post. So thank you : ) and thanks to all the others who have shared their insights and questions, you have given me a good bit to think about and chew over. Woooooooo!
DeleteSebastian & Emily, I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between your two extremes :) I kind of think that your two positions are more similar than you might think (ie rational vs irrational). Perhaps not. Hmmmmm... If I were on "who wants to be a squillionaire" I'd use you two a lifelines, but together not separately. Your thoughts go well together. Alas, I didn't contribute to your discussion much and would have given a portion my royalties to charity and upped Andrew's share since I give him a hard time......
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DeleteWow lols have just had a look at j4g Emily...... hahahahah I'll have to wait till I get a bit of free time to fully digest the fun, friendly and enlightened comments of some of my brothers in arms over there.... I had no idea guys have become so afraid of woman, so emasculated that now we condone 'laying out' a woman for slapping? I realise this comment is mostly seen through the vein of the posts as opposed to the blogger. But I didn't see (in my very quick flick through) any posts by the blogger/s stating that violence against woman is wrong, or the use of violence as an acceptable means of winning an argument, dealing with an isuue is wrong? (Accept in the extreme cases of self defence or defending another). I could have missed it in my quick perusal, but I kinda doubt it? But aside from that emotional intelligence? Sounds interesting :-) will have a wee think about it and come back with some thoughts : ) will also need to think about your question of simultaneous love and hate.....its messing wit my mind! Lols yeeeesh thanks! ; ) lols
DeleteLols just to clarify, im not condoning woman being violent against men either, or children being violent against adults or vice versa etc etc.. I'm against anyone losing control or worse seeking out any oppurtunity to do violence to another living creature... I draw the line at plants, grass etc mow your lawns in peace brothers ; ) but yea kicking the shit out of a dog (please excuse my language Em) throwing stones at cats.......yes even pulling the wings off flies (why the f... would you do that?) Is all weak and sad and beneath us as human beings. P.s this includes emotional and even mental violence (I'm not sure if their desperate?) Lols :-)
Deleteum....'seperate'.... Curse auto correct!! Hahaha
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DeleteHahha hmmm yes I kinda figured it wasn't an intentional mind trap. I actually trapped myself, I got caught between ideology and reality. Sooo for me, the ideal is total love and with total love there can't be hate as they are diametrically opposed. How ever in reality I find myself drawn back to the complicated nature of humans. How our strengths and weaknesses conflict and sometimes cooperate and how this constant flux allows for the possibility of love and hate to cooexist simultaneously...... in answer, in short, yes lols they are very similar as emotions; they are both extremely powerfully, often do not require any hard facts or logic, can be quite intencely felt despite their irrationality and they are at the extremes of a persons Spence of being. Ie.. the bet and the worst part of a person. Imo I think your 1st two verses are easier to show love with than the third. I believe that sadly the last verse is at the very escence of many of the troubles and pain of this world, in our society at large but perhaps seen most dramatically in the younger demographic. 10-20ish years? Society with the manipulations of consumerism through all forms of media has worked hard to undermine and warp our 'love of self' loving oneself has become synonomous with arrogance, sinful pride, selfishness, narcissm etc ironically the use of psuedo 'loving' comments have been used to twist the concept. 'love the skin your in' often associated with expensive skin care ranges, designed to make you look/appear younger than you are.............'your worth it' not anything to do with respect, appreciation, acceptance but again high end expensive 'anti-aging' creams. Body image, social status, sexual attraction and desireability are what is pushed as ideals to 'love' about oneself. Actually we are be brainwashed into lusting for ourselves, focussed on shallow cosmetic, material concepts that will inevitably fade and wither. Rather than who we are...aspects of our personalities, our thinking, skills, abilities for compassion, patience, care, concern. Artistic abilities, creative skills, uniqueness, our Spence of right and wrong and the strength we have as a person, our self belief............... everything that might lead us to a true an honest 'love' of ourselves has been systematically broken down to weaken us so that we can be preyed upon by consumerism. And soon if we don't truelly know how to love ourselves, how can we truelly love others..........or to put it another way. If we love our neighbour as ourselves and we love ourselves under the warped concept of material love. Then it will be that same warped materialistic love that we will have for our neighbour. Pheeeeeeew! = o goodness that was intends lols a lil tangent there, apologies.
DeleteP.s apologies for the errors, its not me its the fricken auto correct! Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!! Lols
DeleteO.k now emotional intelligence ; ) change 'intelligence' to maturity....and we have an accord.. yaaaarhhh ; ) personally I think intelligence suggests it is a naturally occurring Phenom, present in some absent in others. I think it is something that we can learn, not based on intellect as such but more on experience and understanding. Which I consider to be closer related to maturity than intellectual prowess. Some people understand their own and others emotions and their effects more quickly than than others. Often experience plays a big part as does sensitivity and empathy, intellect will help a person to differentiate those emotions more clearly, but it is only the maturity that allows someone to understand and impliment that knowledge in a positive way in their lives. Ummm yaaaaarhhh......! haha : )
DeleteSebastian, lollys to that
DeleteLols hi Jo :-) um is that good or bad? I'm a big fan of Lollies, I'm taking it as positive? Lols
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DeleteLols hi Emily : ) um no? no I'm not suggesting that taking pride in your appearance, care in your presentation and interest in your health and an appreciation of your physicallity in any way reflects an inability to love. Quite the opposite, this reflects a respect and appreciation for who you are : ) like in most things, there is a healthy and an un-healthy side. what you have described seems very healthy and 'good' I was talking more about consumerism constantly pushing for ideals of perfection, as an obvious example the use of air brushing and digital enhanement across many forms of media. Glorifying the 'outside' pushing the importance of your looks at the tremndous cost of the aspects of a person that are unseen; intellect, personality, talent, skills, character, integrity, etc..... capitalising on peoples insecurities and self image issues to push products and services that, may alter to some degree the outside of a person but does nothing to promote the beauty inside. (I'm almost embarrassed I just said that) I was simply trying to say that until we appreciate ourselves, accept our strengths with our weaknesses. The good, the bad and the ugly? ; ) lols Then where going to find it hard to accept and love someone else.. who is NOT going to be perfect. In fact it may very well be their 'perfect imperfections' that we love the most. So in regards to material love and eliciting perfection? Lols the truth is sometimes we just find someone hot! Tasty, tempting, attractive, fine, sexy as, totally ............, beautiful, handsome, alluring, enchanting, pretty, etc et... and each description fits a slightly different feeling of attraction. Imo there has to be some physical attraction, if not then the situation is going to stay pretty platonic. Lols I guess any attraction or at least the absence of totally abhorrance at someones looks is a starting point for potential love? perhaps it is simply a case of the more attractive you find someone the more open you are to allowing feelings of 'love' to develop? Either way truth is looks make a difference, they shouldn't make All the difference but they are an important part of the totally package of whether someone is 'attractve' to us as a 'person' and whether that leads to love. As for eliciting perfection.... nah lols simply, no one is perfect, and that's what makes love what it is. It would be FriKen easy to love someone who we considered perfect! But love is about taking someone as a whole, 'warts and all' (I know I'm sorry no more hahaha) I'm just not interested in someone loving me because they think I'm perfect, yeeesh I know I'm not? How are they going to help me grow and develop and change those aspects of myself that I want to change for the better if I'm already perfect? Let's face it sometimes (very seldom) we just need someone to say "hey your being a dick, stop it.." Or "you realise your an idiot don't you?" Lmao or is this just me?
ReplyDeleteHow bout this I.E.M - intelligent emotional maturity.....? ; )
Platonic vs romantic... I agree, I think there different to. And yes, one can totally be in love with someone who doesn't love you back. Lol I've been there. I've also been on the other side, someone was in love wirh me..and though I loved her I wasn't 'in love' with her. For no particular reason she is a wonderful person, kind, attractive, loving, gentle and smart. But it wasn't to be.
Lols don't worry if love is messing wit your head, that's what it tends to do ; ) its hard to know if or when you love or are In love. But as a thought, in my humble opinion and from my multitude of mistakes ive found that, if you ask yourself is this love....and the answer is Not a deffinit Yes..........then, its a no.....
Another much wiser guy also said that 'the truth comes to you in the silence before t answer..' ; )
Also..... I like chocolates =P
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DeleteLols well it seems we have found some things to agree on : ) seems neither of us are down with the genital warts, but warts and all loving is definitely the shizz!
ReplyDeleteNot sure about the attraction line where it sits on the timetable......? I still think that being immediately physically attracted to someone just makes the feelings of affection, love easier to slide into. But its certainly not impossible to fall in love with a person who may not rock your world at first glance but as you learn more about them and you sew their other qualities, sometimes you can find that actually their not that bad looking after all. That the bent nose is kinda endearing, the big ears lobes fun to nibble on, the weird chin unique and the scrawny chest accentuates his flat stomach and bald well bald is actually quite beautiful......... ; ) hahahahahah hmmmmm think it comes under seeing some one in a new light context? Someone might be suuuuper sexy, but you see him/her paying out some poor unfortunate in a very mean and derogatory way and all of a sudden they ain't so fine....
Friend of a friend .........? O.k lol well your friend of a friend is lucky to have such a wise and caring friend of a friend like you to give advice.... : ) and If she is a at peace over her decision I would say she did the right thing, for her And for him. (The guy she was dating) I whish her all the best with her new love/guy/girl/goldfish/hamster? In any case I hope she finds it 'magical' ......... (couldn't resist)
P.s thanks for the heads up on her STD status....always good to know lols just in case..... ; )
I like chocolates....... ummm pretty self explanatory? Lol I....like.....chocolates. There sweet tasty treats....made with milk, cocoa, sugar and butter, super tasty... nom! Good for the heart and good for the sooooull, and for.......other things. ; )
P.p.s He's sometimes wise, somethimes I have to tell him that he's being and idiot thought.... hahahahahaaa
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DeleteHahaha "well…I bet you know how those situations turn out! " ummmmm...........put it this way lol I can guess ; ) I have had one or two romantic misadventures..
ReplyDeleteYou still don't think I know what it means? Huh! I totally know what it means!! I'm aaaall over it, I invented it!!! Yeeeeeeeeshhhh = 0 p.s umm...what is it?? =/ haha
But yes I have learned, slowly lols its seems I'm of those people that learn best through pain? Not so much once bitten twice shy, more...once savagely mauled, ThEn I'll start feeling a lil shy..... ; ) still I take some solace in the fact that you are incorrect, miss idealistic mathematician, on the small point that Not everyone learns..... sadly there are some people even slower than me, who can't seem to put 2+2 together (it = 4...just in case...) hah ; ) and even after the most savage mauling they go back for more. : (
Still I don't blame them entirely, because someone is doing the mauling, sometimes unintentionally (it happens) but sometimes in full knowledge of what they are doing! Through manipulation, coercion or actual abuse. As the perpetrator they must take some blame... to an extent we are our brothers keeper and our strength should be used to help and protect those less strong, as we hope to be helped and protected by those stronger than ourselves..... sigh hmmmm
Lols fugly?? Huh! At least I can look beneath the skin to the beauty buried deep, deep, deep, deeeeeeeep within ; ) tbah I have to feel attracted to someone, looks do make a difference to me. Sadly I'm not one of those wonderful people who can totally over look someones appearance. In saying that I haven't only been out with stunning woman, but I have only gone out with women who 'I' find physically attractive in some aspect.... Be it beautiful face, Beautiful smile, gentle eyes, sexy mouth, fine ass, toned legs, lovely long hair, skin colour, way of walking/ moving, poise, posture, physical 'energy', beautiful breasts, smooth skin, cute ears? Appetizing neck.... mmmmmm toned calves rrrrraaaaarr hahahahahahah o.k I better stop lmao I'm tuning myself on?!! Apologies ummm so yea Something that 'i' find attractive. : ) even if others don't see it, that's not a big deal. (Weirdly most of my familia have also found the women I've been with attractive? May be I just have very good taste? Wooooooo! Who knew? =p )
Thank you for the compliment? Lols sometimes I really do think im funny : ) but mostly just a doofus.....sigh lols
P.s you Are a good friend : ) .........may be not a modest friend, but a god one ; )
Sebastian it has entertainment value, but overall bad and equally consistent with your previous reasoning.
DeleteSweet : ) thank you for the clarification. You don't like my Lollies, ; ) it may well be totally wrong for everyone else, but its what I've learned from life and for me it feels right.. Also quite positive to hear I'm being consistant. : ) I would be surprised to find wild inconsistency tbh, the base of my reasoning is that we are flawed as humans, but that we should strive for and hope for those moments of perfection that we can achieve, in love as well as any other area of our lives......and that we are not alone. We are on this earth with other people and we are called to love our neighbour as ourselves (which I haven't been too awesome at) and do into others as we would have them do into us (which I've been slightly better at lols) p.s I also like chocolates?
DeleteI don't care anymore what the reasons are for wandering eyes, I know my instinctive response. My husband has been doing this and it's really affected how I feel about him. I don't feel special around him anymore and my heart has slowly been closing toward him. I just don't feel like doing anything for him anymore. I've noticed I don't put effort into looking good around him anymore, get him anything to eat or generally care in general. A woman's heart is very generous but delicate, when disrespected you've lost her. Sadly, I have tried to feel the connection again but for me it is gone.
ReplyDeleteI feel just like you. After a while, you don't care anymore. They have disrespected you one time to many, and
DeleteI am ready to move on and see if there is someone out there I can have conversations with and hold his full attention. Imagine going out to dinner with a man, and he is talking to you, smiling, listening, attentive, instead of us sitting there, like idiots, ignored as he is playing the eye game with whoever he manages to trap in his gaze. He looks more lovingly at a stranger than me. All for his ego, to make himself feel better? Tired of feeling worthless, embarrassed, degraded.
ReplyDeleteHow to Get an Ex Back
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