Note: I've removed this post, for reasons that are philosophically similar to those described on the placeholder for the removed posts Never Say No to Sex.
In general I don't think the analogy between sexual and emotional support is a perfect one. While there is an element of truth to the comparison, the focus on it masks the more important fact, which is that if you are in a relationship which you feel routinely reluctant to give yourself to your husband or boyfriend sexually, the solution is much more complicated - and much more effective - than both of you simply enduring perpetual misery for the other's sake (hint: it has a lot to do with you both coming to terms with yourselves).
This post allowed the reader to wander too far along a path of reasoning that led to the conclusion that real happiness in relationships is a sum-zero game. In fact, this is only true in troubled relationships. If you both reach a point of self-satisfaction in your personal lives and live vulnerably, the opposite is true.
The original text of the post (annotated) is here: The Analogy Between Sexual and Emotional Support
Related Posts
1. Never Say No To Sex
2. The Analogy Between Confidence and Beauty
3. We Have a Shared Responsibility
In general I don't think the analogy between sexual and emotional support is a perfect one. While there is an element of truth to the comparison, the focus on it masks the more important fact, which is that if you are in a relationship which you feel routinely reluctant to give yourself to your husband or boyfriend sexually, the solution is much more complicated - and much more effective - than both of you simply enduring perpetual misery for the other's sake (hint: it has a lot to do with you both coming to terms with yourselves).
This post allowed the reader to wander too far along a path of reasoning that led to the conclusion that real happiness in relationships is a sum-zero game. In fact, this is only true in troubled relationships. If you both reach a point of self-satisfaction in your personal lives and live vulnerably, the opposite is true.
The original text of the post (annotated) is here: The Analogy Between Sexual and Emotional Support
Related Posts
1. Never Say No To Sex
2. The Analogy Between Confidence and Beauty
3. We Have a Shared Responsibility
"Saying no to your man when he wants sex is analogous to him saying no to you when you look to him for emotional stability, direction, comfort or protection"
ReplyDeleteWtf. No it's not. At all.
See my comment below @ 11:26 AM
DeleteIf a man tryies to be persistant on having sex with his wife who doesn't feel like it at that particular time because she's tired, or sick, or stressed/worried about something, or busy with something else that she feels the need to get done before she can think about sex, than he is not doing his part in considering her feelings or supporting her emotionally, so why should she give in to his sexual needs anyway?
ReplyDeleteI feel for this girl because I have been in her place, where I would be not into it for a particular time for various reasons and he would literally throw a fit, start slamming doors and whatnot. Such a man has a lot to learn about female sexuality. If she's not into it, give her her space, reguardless. Never pressure her or make her feel guilty about not giving in every single time. When she is ready and in the mood, she will approach you.
agree.
Deleteamen. The analogy doesn't work.
Delete"If a man tryies to be persistant on having sex with his wife who doesn't feel like it at that particular time because she's tired, or sick, or stressed/worried about something, or busy with something else that she feels the need to get done before she can think about sex, than he is not doing his part in considering her feelings or supporting her emotionally, so why should she give in to his sexual needs anyway?"
DeleteI can just as easily say:
If a woman tries to be persistent in venting her frustrations to her husband who doesn't feel like listening at that particular time because he's incredibly horny and just wants to have sex, then she is not doing her part in considering his need for satisfaction, so why should he give in to her emotional needs anyway?
You can spin your argument right back around. I am not saying the man is right to demand her sexual attention before he gives his emotional support, or that the woman is wrong in her need for emotional support.
I am pointing out that both are wrong in demanding anything from the other, and that both need to put their own needs aside and consider the other's before their own if they want to have a strong relationship.
Sorry, but this is how it is. The fact that your man behaved like a child doesn't mean that you shouldn't have made an initial effort (before his ridiculous reaction, I mean). Similarly, he should have made an effort to bring you out of your mood or listen to you the last time you needed it but he was busy with something else.
"Never pressure her or make her feel guilty about not giving in every single time."
DeleteI never advocated this. I advocated the willing gift of herself to her husband because she knows he wants her sexually, just like I would (on a blog for men) advocate the willing support of his woman whenever she has the need. The whole concept is for the woman to take the initiative to care for her man's sexual needs, and for the man to take the initiative to care for his woman's emotional needs.
"When she is ready and in the mood, she will approach you."
I don't know what to say to this...
Yes, totally understand the when I am sick part. I was once stuffy with a really bad head cold and couldn't breathe through my nose. Gave hubby a BJ because he insisted and nearly died from asphyxiation. And no it was NOT erotic at all.
DeleteAndrew, I do think women should back off if their guy is in a mind frame where he cannot properly give her emotional support. I actually think it's in the best interest of both partners that way, just as I think it is for men to sometimes back off with sex. Even if it's just for a couple of hours, it can mean a world of difference. Now that doesn't mean that I think men or women should just blow each other off whenever they want. I don't think they should abuse that, and yes, sometimes I went ahead and had sex anyway when I wouldn't normally have if he had not asked twice, and it turned out well and got my mind off of whatever it was. And I do think women should really consider "Is it *really* a bad time or am I just being moody?" Sometimes I think women can just do it when they think they don't want to and they still have a good time. But sometimes, a woman is in a state of mind where there's no way she can have a good time having sex, and that's when I think it's time to give her space. And the same goes for women backing off of men for the emotional support.
DeleteI don't quite agree with this post either. And there are times when your partner can't be there for you emotionally because of problems of his own-- and that can be ok (ie the topic that is upsetting to you is even more upsetting for him and he cannot talk about it that often). But more than that, I think that emotional stability, direction, comfort, and protection are fundamentally different than sex. Otherwise men would just visit prostitutes and never have girlfriends/wives. Women provide emotional support to men as well, and this support usually comes in the form of talking or doing little things that you know make him happy.
ReplyDeleteIf I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend, I think it would be highly out of line for him to get angry, and frankly I can't imagine him doing that. I think he try to figure out what is upsetting me, and try to provide me with emotional support until I did better, which would lead me to wanting to have sex again.
So yes, if you know your partner values sex a lot and you know if makes him happy, then you should try to accommodate that as much as you can. But in the same way, if at times doing so will make you unhappy, he should try to accommodate that as well.
I agree with your last paragraph.
Delete"But more than that, I think that emotional stability, direction, comfort, and protection are fundamentally different than sex. Otherwise men would just visit prostitutes and never have girlfriends/wives. Women provide emotional support to men as well, and this support usually comes in the form of talking or doing little things that you know make him happy."
DeleteGirlfriends/wives offer exclusivity of their sex that prostitutes don't. I guarantee you that if it became normalised for girlfriends/wives to not be exclusive with their sex to their boyfriends/husbands then men would no longer seek to have girlfriends/wives.
(The merit of this argument stems from the fact that the difference between prostitutes and girlfriends/wives is exclusivity of sex and so if that difference is removed than the lack of value men place on emotional stability, direction, comfort, and protection is shown/brought to the fore.)
Our hardwiring was drawn in pre-industrial times.
DeleteMen need and desire, above all else, sex from women.
Not love. Not emotional support. But sex. Love feels great, and emotional support can be very important. Lack of them can lead to depresion. But secure healthy men dont CRAVE them as they crave sex.
Women crave lvoe from men.
This motivates women to seek out men and make them fall in love. The reason women have this craving, is because a man in love gives commitment. An male commitment means two things: physical protection and financial support.
Sex and financial support are the two basic pre-requisites for creating a child who will survive into adulthood.
Female orgasm is not necesary, and neither is a man in love. It just doesn't matter if the woman gets an orgasm or not, or if the man is love or not, as long as the man gets an orgasm into the woman, and commits money and protection for her and the child.
Female orgasm feels great, and so does male love. But neither of them are cravings, for obvious reasons.
A female orgasm is enjoyable for the female to get and does not require much from her, but expensive for a man to perform. Male love is enjoyable for the man to experience, and it does not require the man to perform, but it requires the woman to perform in order to induce the feeling.
Thus, we see that good sex is for a female what good love is for a man.
And we see that good sex is for a man what money and protection is for a woman.
Love leads to money and protection, so it can be writen as:
Sex = Male craving, female expense
Money = female craving, male expense
Thus, if a female demands to have access to the full supply of what she craves, the reasonable offer is to give access to the full supply of what the man craves. In other words, if a woman wants the man to only spend money on her, and no other woman, then she should always be sexually available.
If a female wants to be a mans sole source cravings, then she should agree for the man to be her sole source of her cravings.
Thus, if a female insist on sexual exclusivity from a man, she should agree financial axclusivity. That means that the woman should agree to never accept any money or protection form any other man. I personaly regrd governments and institutions as men. I peronaly regard it as fair to have the womans father and brother be exkluded, just as the man can also take "care of himself" in times of stress.
Keep in mind that while women are each others sexual competitors, men are each others competitors in regards to money and power.
A woman i naturally dissintrested in other men, when she regards her man as "the one", and is thus naturaly sexually exklusive. Not so for men.
The woman offering something that is easy and natural for her, in exchange for something that is hard and unatural for the man is... fill in the blanks.
At the same time, it's easy and natural for a man to not be intrested in receiving female attention from a woman who is "of limits" to him, ie, already have male patrons and is thus sexually unavailable. Being friendzoned is not a male craving. Skiping the attention and going straight to for sex, thats in the intrest of males. "Excuse me, can i fuck you here? Oh yes, do go on."
However, a female will love to receive male attention, speciall if there is no sex on the table. Females love to have a BFF in the friendzone.
Would it be fair if the man asked for the woman to never receive attention from a man, and he agreeing to never receiving attention from a woman?
What abou the womans sexual exlusivity? Well, she offering it to a man who she regards to be perfect, is like a man offering to never receive female attention from other woman. Neither of them are really intrested in what they offer anyway.
Feminist will shriek. The logical mind will be intrgigued. I will not spellcheck.
Please spell check this is painful to read through. Proper grammar would also be highly appreciated.
DeleteI was in a rush. Here is a link to a spell checked version. Disregard initial non-English.
Deletehttp://y4ser.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/forhandlingar-kring-sex-och-karlek/
Haha, en svensk blogg. Tack for den! :)
DeleteYaser, you wouldn't happen to be a regular contributor at Flashback as well?
DeleteNej, det är jag inte :)
Delete(No, i am not)
@yaser
Delete'female orgarms in not necessary'
then why do we masturbate? i mean, we have multiple orgasms, saying that we don't need them is quite absurd...
'A woman i naturally dissintrested in other men, when she regards her man as "the one", and is thus naturaly sexually exklusive.'
hmmm... there are many women who regard their man as the one, but they look at other man. there are even women who cheat, even though they *say they love their man. And to be honest, my booboo is awesome as hell. he's sexy and confident, he is really sweet to me, but sometimes i find myself looking at others guys butts (it's a fetish, shut up, don't judge me).
'and neither is a man in love'
yes it is, otherwise he wouldn't feel the need to take care of his wife.
ps: the grammar nazi in me started to weep for the english grammar. the feminazi thought that altough you are write in some points, your overall text was a bit meh.
I thought the analogy was hilarious when it was posted in the comments last week. We can swap sex and emotional support with other elements of a relationship and it still makes sense. For example, use one party's need to be alone and the other party's need to spend time with elderly parents. Isn't this somewhat like trying to be in the other's shoes?
ReplyDeleteI think people have problems with Andrew's analogy because emotional support can be available on-demand any time (when the giver and receiver are both awake). Sex, on the other hand, cannot be available on-demand any time (even if both parties are willing). Anyway, excessive demand in either will certainly drain the receding party.
well, in the middle of all of this comments, you are the one who makes more sense :)
DeleteTypo: "receiving" party. By the way, there are men who demand a lot of emotional support from their women, and women who demand a lot of sex from their men.
ReplyDeleteTrue. And in those cases, the dynamic should work the other way around.
DeleteAndrew -- any suggestions for a woman who has a higher sex drive than her partner? He'd opt for 1-3 times per week... I'd opt for 4-7.
ReplyDeleteIt's been a huge struggle in my relationship. I think it makes him feel less masculine... and it makes me feel less desired.
Suggestions?
How old is he and what does he do for a living? Is he supporting you? Living together? Rent or mortgage?
DeleteWhen i was 18 i could go 7 times a week, maybe more.
I'm 36 now, 1 time a week sounds perfect, 3 if the lady really turns on the charms and the sexy dress.
But the libido fades darlin. Don't feel less desired unless he simply stops looking at you. Also, are you keeping up appearances for him, staying fit, feminine and being seductive/playful/flirtatious with him throughout the day?
Older gents like me don't start up from cold anymore, we actually need... *gasp*... foreplay! :D
I'm 29, he's 30.
DeleteWe live together (rent) for just over 2 years now.
He's an architect and I run my own business. I make more money than he does, but that has been true since day one and it hasn't ever been an issue between us.
I know it's not an issue of attraction... and I keep myself looking good most of the time... this is more of a since-day-one-our-libidos-have-been-mismatched in the non-traditional direction.
I do my best not to take it personally (and he adamantly agrees with that). It's just rough on our relationship sometimes.
I went though mismatched libido with my ex husband for years! If he did "put out", he made me feels like I owed him something in return. It was extremely frustrating, especially as I was entering my prime. It turned out his lack of desire was due to a drug addiction. After 8 years of hoping for change, I finally divorced. I didn't want another 20 years of pent up resentment. I was also dangerously close to having an affair. No regrets. I met someone, and we have amazing chemistry! Finally, I am satisfied. I do equate emotional and sexual needs as equal. They are intertwined. Withholding either from your mate is downright cruel. I don't understand anybody who would pass up intimacy for sleep, even if you have a cold.
DeleteGood for you! Would you have left him if his lack of desire was not due to drug addition?
DeleteYes. He was a once a week guy from day one. Then, even before the drug problem hit, he became disinterested in sex. I had his testosterone checked and it was low. He refused hormones. He would watch porn, but didn't want sex with me. I thought it was the baby weight I put on. I lost the weight and still, nothing. I had grown so bitter the last 10 years of our marriage. About 6 months between left, my eyes had started to wander. I would have ended up having an affair if I didn't divorced him. After meeting my boyfriend a month later, we had more sex in one night, (5 times) than I had in the previous 18 months with my ex! I had no idea sexual chemistry like this existed! He is younger than me by a decade. It worried me at first, but we have a great time together. Im not sure I would ever go back to dating men my age. At least, not for a long time! If your sexual needs aren't being met, you may grow resentful, as I did.
DeleteTo throw a temper tantrum because you don't get what you want in that exact moment is childish no doubt. If it's a recurring theme and the woman is denying often, making excuse after excuse, then perhaps.. but not on one offs.
ReplyDeleteBut for sure there is a reciprocity at play.
I can imagine back during a time when i was married, me carefully measuring and cutting bits of wood for a reno project, and not wanting to screw up i put my full focus into it. The wife comes home upset about something that happened at work and immediately starts talking to me about it, tho im not really listening and just saying ya ya ok ya ya whatever ya ya.
She flips out and demand i stop what im doing to listen to her terrible day.
According to ladies above, i should slam my fists down, tell her to shut the *#^$ up and then ignore her for the next 2-3 days because she felt her need to 'vent' was more relevant than what i had deemed important in my head, namely finishing the reno in time and without wasting money cutting mis-measured wood.
If the wife is having a bad day and isn't in the mood for sex, a guy should understand that... provided she assures him that it'll be on the next day or soon, just as i should be able to tell me sig other to calmly wait for me to finish what i'm doing because i simply don't have the emotional energy or focus to deal with her bull$#!7 at that moment either.
And if women want to say i'm being a big bad meanie for putting my womans emotional needs aside to finish building my little pet project.. bite me.
+1
DeleteWhile I was dating this guy last November, he just purchased a new motorcycle. On the day he went to pick up the bike, I emailed him during the day and left him alone that evening. A week later he bought an iPad, I didn't think it was as big a deal and went to see him that evening. He wanted to play with his new toy, I wanted to talk. While I waited for him to be done with it, he felt pressured to talk, so we ended up arguing about whether his iPad is superior to my android tablet. We stopped seeing each other after that.
DeleteLesson learned: 1. Stay away when a man is working on a project. 2. Pick your fight carefully.
iFruit vs. Android debates have sunk more relationships than Blackbeard.
DeleteHe was a good guy who just couldn't understand why I didn't like apple as much as he did.
DeleteI. Love. This. Thread.
DeleteI agree with you here. And I'm glad you mentioned that "provided she assures him that it'll be on the next day or soon" because I was actually going to suggest earlier (but forgot to) that what I have found to work tremendously is a line similar to this. "Babe, I just gotta finish this paper before the deadline. Give me about an hour and it's on. :)" Giving him an idea of when you are good to go reassures him that she's not just blowing him off.
Deletebut it requires much more effort for a women to have sex than for a men to listen (when in reality, like you said, is just PRETENDING to listen).
DeleteI thought you answered a comment on a different post that a pretty face was more important than a hot body as long as neither was horrendous (although I can't find it again so maybe I misread)? Why is that the case if sex is the primary reason he is attracted to her?
ReplyDeleteSexual attraction isn't just about a woman's body, her face is a big part of it too.
DeleteI'm intrigued....What is it about a woman's face that's sexually attractive?
DeleteYou could just as well ask what is it about ANY part of a woman's body that is sexually attractive? Though in general it is signs of fertility and youth (which suggests fertility) that make a women sexually attractive. So her face can definitely play a big part: large eyes, good skin and hair, small features, etc. all make her look younger and more attractive. There are probably other things I am unaware of.
DeleteFull lips are sexy but I am not sure what the psychological reason is for that.
- Helps when giving a blowjob
Delete- Feels better to kiss
- Sign of arousal: lips will look blushed and slightly fuller after orgasm
?
Full lips and high cheekbones signify more estrogen, which makes the female more fertile. Symmetrical faces also indicate a strong immune system, and the ability to fight off diseases because it is hard for a person's face to develop symmetrically due to environmental factors, parasites, and diseases.
DeleteIn answer to the question : What is it about a woman's face that's sexually attractive ?
DeleteThe fact that it is not a man's face and your bloke is not plonking a man inadvertently !
lolll
DeleteSome say that full lips remind a man of the lips on the vagina and all that, that implies.
DeleteInteresting. Not sure I agree with this, probably because I don't believe most women feel the need to emotionally "vent" or have "state of the union" talks as often as most men want sex. It would be exhausting for us women, even, to have girl friends that vent about their problems on a daily basis! Comparing emotional support to sex is like comparing apples to oranges.
ReplyDeleteI think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman (or a man) to turn down sex from his/her partner a couple of times a week, and I believe it is ruder for a man to turn away his crying/upset partner than it is for a woman to say "not tonight." That is my personal opinion but I doubt I'm alone.
If a woman is upset/insecure and feels that her partner needs to listen to her vent or reassure her on an unusually frequent basis (like, 5-7 days of the week), then I think it would be acceptable for the man to let her know in a sensitive way that it's too much for him. Men can jerk off and women can call their girlfriends instead.
I agree it is reasonable to turn down sex occasionally. The title of the post that the comment came from ("Never Say No To Sex") is hyperbole. The point was that a woman shouldn't JUST follow her own feelings in deciding when to say "yes." Just like a man shouldn't JUST pay attention to his own indifference when a woman needs someone to hold her or listen to her.
Delete"I believe it is ruder for a man to turn away his crying/upset partner than it is for a woman to say 'not tonight.'"
I wonder if you would think the opposite if you were a man. I know I did before I understood why and how women want emotional support from men. It is true that sex is something a man wants more frequently than women want emotional support (depending on the women, as you point out...), but it is also true that the man gets nothing when he gives emotional support, while a typical woman enjoys sex at least some of the time - not when she forces herself to do it, of course, but this isn't always the case. If you compare the times a woman has sex without enjoying it to the times a man gives emotional support without enjoying it, I think the comparison is much closer.
You have a good point in that women enjoy sex, whereas men don't usually 'enjoy' being emotionally supportive. Nevertheless I think it's a strange comparison. I feel that the point you made in your response to the earlier comment- that both partners should put their own needs aside for their partner's sake on an equal basis- is the heart of your argument.
DeleteYes, it is. Thanks for the comments.
DeleteIm not sure Id turn my future husband down for sex unless I was really sick,its just that most men Ive met don't like to talk about their feelings much.It seems to me their need for sex is not just physical release but a way of receiving and giving emotional support.My ex didnt want to talk about a crappy day at work, he preferred just cuddling on the couch
ReplyDeleteI guess this is based on context, emotion being more important in an LTR/marriage.
Its also probably pretty damaging to a man's ego if you're turning him down for sex on a regular basis.I know Id be really unhappy if my future husband kept saying he wasnt in the mood,possibly to the point where Id become insecure about myself and our relationship.
Sacrifice and compromise may seem old fashioned concepts but maybe they apply here.
In my experience women take much more personal offense when they get turned down for sex (though men are much more dissatisfied when their women turns them down).
DeleteThis, I am sure, goes back to the idea that a woman wants to feel desired by her man, and when he turns her down, she has essentially encountered the limits of a desire that she'd like to believe is infinite.
A man, on the other hand, feel much more personally offended when his wife challenges his judgement or abilities, than his wife feels if he questions hers.
What is the appropriate way for a woman to deal with being turned down for sex by her partner (assuming that she is quite attractive and still as attractive as she was when they started their relationship)?
DeleteThe transcript sounds exactly like my ex-boyfriend's attitude towards me. The only thing is I never turned down sex. Still, gives food for thought for the future.
ReplyDeleteHmm,
ReplyDeleteIs it against the law to force sex on someone? Is it against the law to force emotional support on someone?
Sure, it's just a vagina. Of course the man should have direct access to it as soon as he wants to. After all, that is all women are, a vessel for the man to empty his seed into. Well, not only, she is also there to feed him and to make him look good to others, represent him, but she should definitely be there and ready to spread her legs at the instant he wants to. It doesn't matter if he hasn't done a good enough job to turn her on and make her actually WANT sex, she can always fake it, and there are lubricants.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, you don't wonder why you have "dated endless women" and no one actually wanted to STAY with you, Andrew? The view on women that you have was out of date even 100 years ago. Grow up
"After all, that is all women are, a vessel for the man to empty his seed into."
Deleteprimary biological function to be sure.
"Well, not only, she is also there to feed him and to make him look good to others,"
guys can feed themselves, but prefer women who dote upon them, respect them, and admire them(mans heart through his stomach etc..) when she provides these to him, his love for her grows, and in return he reciprocates the needs the female requires in terms of love, emotion, time, support. reciprocity. you should learn it. with your tone, i see your future clouded in kitty litter.
looking good? projection. does he not make her look good to other hypergamous women? both sexes want their mates to 'look good'. men choose on physical characteristics, women choose based on power, status and prestige. a woman with natural beauty did not have to put any effort to attain it. power status and prestige for men take a very long time to attain so effort differential is huge, not that you'd care you solipsist twat.
But you know what.. you're right. If you need lube because she's not getting wet for you more than once every full moon.. I say dump the broad. If you're in a relationship, and she's not putting out with some frequency.. simply put she ain't attracted to you. So why's she there? Cut her loose, let her find someone else and move on! I fully agree. If she ain't getting wet, then stop providing her ANY benefits and NEXT her. She's not entitled to a relationship any more than a guy is entitled to sex on demand.
Dump the frigid bitch and find someone who actually gets excited being with you. Right anonymous? After all, relationships certainly aren't about compromise or reciprocity right? Or is it only what the woman wants each time, every time, all the time.. ammiright?
My dearest little troll. You're ability to see things from only the tiny little corner of your diseased mind bores me. Take your feminine imperative elsewhere. Taking Andrews great lesson for both sex's and twisting it so far out of context as to make it unrecognisable is what your type does.
Trolls'a'gonna'troll.
Seconded.
DeleteSex is very important to most guys if you aren't giving him as much as he wants, he has the choice to take his horniness elsewhere. At least good men (the ones with options) do. He has the choice to take his commitment and move on to a girl that gives him more of what he needs.
DeleteIf that's okay with you, it should all be fine. right? No need to get hostile and cunty about it.
He has a right to look for what he wants from women. You have a right to reject him, but don't feel entitled to his commitment afterwards . You've chosen that. You should look for a man with a low sex drive. Everyone wins in that situation. Your mistake is in thinking that the man you are with should change what he wants to suit you. He doesn't have to.
By the way, I'm sick of all this bullshit girls/trolls come up with about how Andrew wasn't good enough for the women he's dated. The truth is HE was probably doing most of the rejection. Where the fuck do cunty, entitled chicks/trolls get off saying this shit? Oh Andrew is such a shitty person OBVIOUSLY because no goddess has blessed him with commitment. YEAH FUCKING RIGHT!! It would be funny if it weren't so sick.
This implies a seriously screwed up perception of the current dating market. ugh.
*rejecting
Deleteand let me guess....you are a "feminist". 95% of what Andrew says is the truth and girls/women who want happy blissful long term relationships with real masculine high value men, as opposed to emasculated pro-fem manboobs could benefit from following his advice then again you are either still single all in a relationship with one of the manboobs as aforementioned. Be gone.
Delete-Fellow female
"Fellow female"
DeleteHaha, sure.
"Fellow female," there's nothing wrong with being pro-fem or a beta man, if that is what you are referring to to. If you are an alpha and proud, fine, great, and good for you. But is it really necessary to bully men who aren't that way? Believe it or not, there are in fact women who would go for softer men.
Delete@Loveashley
DeleteNo one is saying that going after softer men is a bad thing. What does soft even mean? how are you defining soft? Because being an Alpha and being gentle are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact, for long term considerations it is better to go for somenone with higher beta or lower alpha traits as it decreases the risk of said partner straying on you and increases the possibility that they will stick around to take care of the kids.
Whether you like to admit it or not, most women would feel happier when they are dating and/married to a man they perceive to be confident, take charge kind that demonstrates Alpha tendencies or traits. Sure, many women would go for "softer" men if that is what they can get, but the chances are incredibly high that they would live said softie for a guy who demonstrates more Alpha traits if the opportunity presented itself. Don't kid yourself. Most women want to be with prized high value men who they know chose (and eventually settled with) them out of all the potential options they could had. It is silly to pretend that from an evolutionary/sociological/biological standpoint these kinds of men are not more desired long term.
And I am not bullying men who are not Alpha or high betas unless you think that fat women who are told to lose weight in order to expand their marketability are being bullied too? It is what it is. At the end of the day everyone just wants to be happy if going after a "softie" makes you happy then by all means...just don't pretend that you would rather go for some guy who would rather hide behind you when there is a situation of danger as opposed to one that would put you to the side and take care of the situation.
- Fellow Female
Ideally, I'd rather have a man that would allow me to stand side by side with him in a moment of danger. A mix of alpha and beta. Maybe I posses too many alpha male traits myself to be with an alpha male. I'm not like most women. I need to be with a man that is ok with me being a bit nontraditional.
Delete@ Loveashley, trust me I know how you feel.
DeleteI am a young mid twenty something insurance defence lawyer and a 7-8 on the looks scale. My whole life has prepared me for a non traditional female role. I am the definition of an Alpha female. Thing is I have been in LTRs with a Beta. I broke off my engagement because I was not happy and while he was an amazing guy, I realized what made me happy was someone who is man enough to draw boundaries with me...I need boundaries. I literally would get WHATEVER I wanted regardless of how crazy the request. My girlfriends would tell me I was the luckiest woman alive but I was NOT happy. I never knew why and thought something was wrong with me until i started researching online about the whole male-female relationship dynamics. Sure I could have "used" him like so many opportunistic women would have done, marry him, pop out some kids and then divorce 5 maybe 10 years later and collect alimony (goodbye legal career) but my values will not allow me and I won't sacrifice tingles and happiness for that anyway.
I do not actively seek an Alpha but that is the only kind of man I would be happy with because I want someone who can ultimately LEAD me if not I WILL naturally dominate him....just how I was raised...can't help it. And that's why I am here, to re-train myself to be more *feminine* in personality.....not in the way I dress (always been into sexy apparels/make-up) but in the way I act. The sad fact is when I was younger, my personality was of no relevance to the guys I dated but the older I get and go on dates with Alpha guys it is glaring that my personality needs work. I have no problems going on dates...never did but if I want to think Long term commitment it has to change. Point.Blank.Period. Even then, after reading "dont waste your most eligible years" I am still battling the INTENSE urge to not casually date this beautiful 19 year old surfer type I just met, I am almost 26. So yes, I know about "being a bit nontraditional"
- Fellow Female
Will you regret it, later on, if you decide not to date the young surfer stud? If I had that opportunity when I was your age, I would have gone for it.
DeleteWhy would you have gone for it?
DeleteThe opportunities (guys and everything else) that you have now will be very different from the ones that will be available to you when you are older. Give it a shot, walk away if it doesn't work.
DeleteI wasn't the previous commenter. I was just curious. They will be different from when you are how much older?
DeleteWhen I started to establish a career and looked for a mate to start a family, I thought 30 was my threshold. I relied on conventional wisdom (read: nagging old-fashion mom) in pacing myself. That was about a decade ago, when Andrew was still a high school kid sporting dorky glasses and braces.
Delete30+ women are not the same as twenty somethings. Notice how many women here are saying that they LOOK younger than their age or they are happy when they are told that they LOOK young? That is because looking young is a good thing, and being young is even better.
@ Anonymous @ 6:29 I don't know if I will regret it... I think I am leaning towards agreeing to go out with him for another dinner....we went hiking last week and I told myself to "cut it out" because there is no future (none that I see at least) but he is hot, fun sweet and persistent.
DeletePart of me want to "live a little" and have some crazy fun which I know I will with him, but the rational part of me just wants to cut him off to create a space where more long term potentials can inhabit.
-Fellow Female
I was in same situation with you and I cut him off because no future with different age, I'm older than him. The thing is I believe he wasn't for long term and I was right. He left so fast after I cut him off.
DeleteMaybe a younger alpha male can cope with an older alpha female?
Delete"Maybe a younger alpha male can cope with an older alpha female?" - he'll only want sex.
DeleteThat is fine if he is willing to give emotional support. :-)
DeleteAndrew what do you make of this one. BF of three months. We both have high sex drives. Recently we had sex five times one night. Very early in the morning, he wakes me up for round six. I was tired, sore, and not in the mood. Later in the day he would make a comment about how I "rejected" him in the morning. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteE.
Damn, six times in a night? That dude loves fucking you. I mean, while he did make the comment, it would be hard for any guy to REALLY hold it against you that you didn't want round SIX super early in the AM. I doubt it bothered him too much.
DeleteThanks Andrew. And your word choice above has got me curious. Do you think that because he does love fucking me so much, that is a indication of great interest? And that was not a one of, we usually have sex 3-5 times per night, meeting up about twice per week (due to my work schedule).
DeleteAnd I want to so say thank you for your blog. I have learned so much. I used to think my personality, intelligence, and accomplishments should be enough to attract the men I want to attract. I now realize I was wrong. I need to focus on my appearance. Within just a few weeks I've started getting a lot of attention from high value men. Now I'm happy with my bf, but in case it doesn't work out I know I will not be alone for long. Please do keep up the great work!
E.
Either he is the energizer bunny jack rabbit and he would have sex with any girl that much (I doubt this) or you guys have amazing sexual chemistry - which counts for a lot. He won't walk away from that easily.
DeleteHang on. This isn't really mentioned in the blog that much. I thought we weren't supposed to take a man's sexual behavior into account, just his actions in terms of taking things further.
DeleteMy gut has always told me that 3+ times sex per night and amazing sexual chemistry could tell me something, but this blog has always given me the impression that men are dogs with anyone, always. If your reply is the newly found truth, I think a post called "Learn from how a man has sex with you" is in order.
I've had men being "sexually addicted to me", but I am not sure if that is the best possible situation unless everything else is in place.
I never said you couldn't learn something from your sexual chemistry with a man. I've said repeatedly that you can't learn something from how much a man pursues you sexually. Maybe this is what you are thinking of, but this is different entirely. The allure of the first sexual encounter is different in type (though not necessarily in magnitude) from the allure of repeated encounters.
DeleteAnd anyway, my advice here was spurred by the fact that sex 6 times a night is pretty exceptional. I am horny as fuck and even with the girl I had the best sex of my life with we only had sex 5 times in a night. This guy has it hard for her.
I agree that it is outside the norm. However, I have had sex with an ex 6 times per night on two occasions. Although I agree that it is an indicator of extreme sexual chemistry, I was really surprised by the response "he won't walk away from that easily". As hot as it may be, I've had the impression that men can separate extreme attraction and love entirely, and the latter matters for the long term.
DeleteI've just never seen this mentioned on the blog before, as in "how many times a night do you have sex?" or "how hard is attraction for you?".
I don't think he can answer the difference between separating love and attraction because I believe Andrew has said before that he's never been in love. The few guys that I've come across who hadn't fallen in love by their late twenties have always struck me as a little strange. Well, that it was strange... Just saying.
DeleteAre you all talking about 5 or 6 times a night almost every night? Now I feel sore just by typing that question. I have never had that level of intensity in my life. 3 or 4 times a day in the beginning maybe, but then it went down gradually to 2 to 3 times a week. :/
DeleteAndrew thanks for your thoughts, they are making me feel more secure. I have it bad for this guy too, believe me.
DeleteAnon no it's not every night, just a couple times a week when we see each other. I couldn't keep up this pace every night, and then go to work too. The relationship is also new, just three months.
Andrew I too would like to read a post about sexual chemistry.
E.
Still, that is awesome! Girl you are so lucky that you don't have to worry about things that "why he hasn't called" or "will garter belts make him want me more!"
DeleteAnon 8.54 PM
DeleteI agree with you, if you haven't truly been in love, you'll measure everything up against maximum sexual chemistry.
There is a difference between love and lust after all. What happens after a perfect sexual chemistry, or the 5-times-a-night relationship, is that he'll contact you after you've broken up, begging to "get together", so you can have sex again. That's the only difference. Lust is lust.
I am curious though, what makes it the best sex with that girl? Was she more skilled than others?
DeleteHmm as well,
ReplyDeleteI normally agree with Andrew on everything but I'm on the fence on this one. I've only ever pursued women who have a similar sex drive to me so I've never really had a problem with matching frequency of sex. Anytime they didn't want sex there was normally a reason for it, so I just had to find out what the reason was.
Sometimes women did turn me down for sex for no reason, but I didn't let it bother me too much. However, I noticed that if I reciprocated and turned down them down when they wanted it, they seemed to get far more upset!
So, I'm curious about this one:
ReplyDeleteBecause of health issues, sex is painful to me, has always been painful to me and always will be. A lack of lubrication isn't the issue, and it doesn't matter how attracted to my partner I am, I'll always be left grinding my teeth and just trying to put up with it long enough for my partner to finish.
This has left me completely uninterested in sex. I don't mind other things, like giving oral (which I can go at pretty enthusiastically), but a lot of men seem to be focused on penetrative sex instead. What am I to do in this case? Do I put up with it and try my best to look like I'm not in pain, or should my partner back off about this one and focus on other ways of getting off instead?
I think you should speak to a doctor because it sounds like you have vaginismus - a medical condition where you can't control your pubococcygeus muscle.
DeleteOr perhasp suggest anal to your partner? I'm sure he won't mind this as an alternative.
Talk to your partner and reassure him that you're not rejecting him because it's something to do with him, but that you still fancy him. Then mention how enthusiastic you are about oral.
DeleteAnd I second the suggestion about going to see a doctor. Let him see that you are doing everything you can.
Deleteyour partner, that is, not your doctor
DeleteOf course, that is not for a doctor to see.
DeleteHmmm this post reminds me of a convo (conversation ) I was having with my bloke just last night. He wondered why women had to bitch so much and I suggested that maybe whinging is to women what wanking is to blokes. Both acts RELIEVE tension in different ways to different genders. Tension is generated in women as mental stress which she can get rid off by "talking" well usually in the form of bitching and whining. Tension may be manifested in men as sexual stress which he can relieve through wanking or sex. So men and women are basically stress relievers to each other...nice !
ReplyDeleteSpeak for yourself. Not all women are whiny. Not all blokes spend so much time wanking.
DeleteThat is an interesting idea. Pleasure in general can usually be correlated with the release of tension (stress), so I can see how this could be true.
DeleteAbsolutely. When I was married, we got so busy at one pint that we were too tired to have sex in more than 3 week, and then we got into heated arguments over nothing. It happened several times before I noticed the pattern. Too much pent up energy and physical distance. After sex, he got some good sleep and I got some quiet time for myself.
Delete"What men want most it to be admired by the woman they love"...true? What if they don't yet love her, do they still want to be admired by her?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255699/what-do-men-want-dennis-prager?pg=1
Interesting... (Not so much the concept than the question posed) - would be interested in the answer also, as it'd help us women with the dating process!
DeleteAlso, more relevant to this post:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dennisprager.com/columns.aspx?g=652609e7-f8fe-44d7-834c-7ad9904e41c0&url=when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_i
and
http://www.dennisprager.com/columns.aspx?g=1fe5a8b3-daae-4edc-bcce-7042b43a2837&url=when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_ii
Ladies, it's time to stop being so selfish and learn to put your guy's needs before your own. You'll be surprised at how giving and loving he will turn out to be. Sex is not that important to women. Oh, we want to scratch that itch when it's driving us nuts, we certainly do enjoy how good an orgasm feels and wow what a way to release tension but unlike men it's not a validation for us. Sex for men is another way they process and express their emotions, and are assured that they are still wanted by you. I'm going to use a very uncomfortable word right now but it's one I think needs to be discussed when it comes to LTR/marriages, Submit. It's not that hard and easy to do if you trust and know your guy. If this idea makes you cringe then you need to rethink who you're with.
DeleteGreat articles, same idea as Andrew is stating, just a different way. Thanks
DeleteThis was nuts (in a good way). I never ever thought about it this way. Thanks, Andrew!
ReplyDeleteAndrew! What should a 24 year old virgin do? I've only had one boyfriend so far. I'm at an age where I am looking for someone serious, but I'm scared of losing it to someone unworthy. I think this fear is beneficial in screening out guys that only want me for sex, but I also feel I'm letting good guys pass by. If I'm already a virgin at 24, should I stay one until marriage?
ReplyDeleteHave them do you in the butt. That way you can remain a virgin and they don't feel like you're stonewalling. You're welcome.
DeleteAnd a guy would respect me still? Seriously?
DeleteEwwww. NO.
DeleteI feel you on this one. I am 25 and in a month going to turn 26!! Some days I feel like I should just do it with a close male friend and get it over with. This however will ruin our friendship, other days I think I should just wait until I am in a relationship. To be honest though I never see this happening.
DeleteDepends. Do you want to stay a virgin? I.e. if it had no effect on what men thought of you, would you stay a virgin until you got married?
DeleteBecause if your answer is yes, then I think you should stay a virgin. If a guy really likes you, he isn't going to get overly upset about the "no sex until marriage" thing until you start talking about marriage. Then he might want a "test ride." Fair enough. At that point, I am guessing you'd be comfortable enough with him to go for it.
If you value your virginity, I don't thin you should give it up to make men more inclined to date you; I think you should find men that respect your decision.
I regret not having sex with my first boyfriend. I probably watch more porn and think about sex more often than my non-virgin friends. Staying a virgin is definitely not making me feel "pure" at all.
DeleteI think perhaps the next relationship I'll be in, I'll have sex. But because I have this expectation that the next relationship I will be in will lead to sex, it makes me judge the guys more harshly.
Also, is the fear of what will happen after sex. I'm not a slut at all, and I know how to act like a virgin because I am one. But after I have sex, can I really go back to my role? If I break up with the guy I end up losing my virginity to, what do I do for the next relationship? I'm not good at lying, and wouldn't know how to go about the next relationship.
It almost feels like staying a virgin until marriage is easier, but is this healthy? I don't think I'm doing it for the right reasons. The fear of being vulnerable, the fear of becoming a different person, the fear of future judgment, etc...
Butt play, in my opinion, is a more advanced skill. The guy will have to know or learn how to prep the area before entry, otherwise it would be a pain in the butt.
DeleteDon't do it with a friend just for the sake of it. Wait until you find someone you really like, read andrew's other articles, and decide how to proceed. If you have not experienced sex yet, you won't feel as strong an urge to have it. At least that was how I felt. One of the guys I dated last year confirmed that as well.
DeleteI don't think you need to think that far ahead about what the next guy will think if he ends up being number 2. That's not a turn off, exactly. Most girls cannot say they have only had sex with one person. I think you should do it when it feels right. Maybe focus on developing a quality connection with someone you really like... That's hard though, if it is now so built up in your head. Just focus on an emotional connection with someone, and creating real intimacy, and then it should come more naturally...
DeleteOh man. My one and only serious girlfriend (I'm generally more into flings or one night stands) was a 23 year old virgin when I met her. I took her virginity and we dated for about 2 years, so here's my take.
Delete"I'm at an age where I am looking for someone serious, but I'm scared of losing it to someone unworthy. I think this fear is beneficial in screening out guys that only want me for sex, but I also feel I'm letting good guys pass by."
You're probably going to miss out on a few good guys because you're a virgin, but at the same time any guy who sticks around will be way more into you. My best friend has vowed to never date a virgin again, and I more or less refuse to seriously date a girl who isn't a virgin. There are guys on both ends of the spectrum. Overall it's going for quality over quantity in the guys you'll get.
"If I'm already a virgin at 24, should I stay one until marriage?"
If you're in the market for marriage now, it probably wouldn't hurt.
"Also, is the fear of what will happen after sex. I'm not a slut at all, and I know how to act like a virgin because I am one. But after I have sex, can I really go back to my role? If I break up with the guy I end up losing my virginity to, what do I do for the next relationship?"
This here is the most important aspect, from my experience. After me and my gf broke up, she had the same problem of not knowing how to approach sex and dating. Honestly, she turned into a raging slut. I'm talking 15 guys in 6 months. That probably wouldn't happen to you, but the point is that losing your virginity at a later age opens up a whole can of worms that you may not want.
More practically speaking, since virgins are so rare, and so valued by (some)men, staying a virgin could be a huge advantage for you. Just don't be one of those "virgins" that have let 20 guys fuck them in the ass and routinely give guys blowjobs. That doesn't count.
You need to read this before deciding what to do with your virginity:
Delete(non-virgins can go on to the next comment, nothing here for you)
http://socialpathology.blogspot.se/2010/08/defining-slut.html
I encourage you to Wait until you're married.
DeleteThis has to be the most shockingly infuriating blogs I've ever seen. Why are you lumping all men and women together? You also based your entire works off the notion you think women are less intelligent than you . No one likes to have their intelligence questioned, male or female. I won't even question yours after you made the most ridiculous analogy maybe ever made. Sexual and emotional needs cannot be compared because they are completely separate entities in the human psyche. So please do not act like men do not seek emotional support because all of mankind does.
ReplyDeleteAlso ladies, never feel bad about saying no to sex. It is after all your body and your choice. Any man who is worth having a relationship with will respect your wishes, your body, and your mind. If you do find yourself having little to no sex drive there could be something wrong, either emotionally or medically. A lack of sex drive can be symtom of many illnesses or it could simply mean you are no longer attracted to your partner and something is wrong with the relationship.
I can see how this would be a tough first post to read for some people. Try reading The Analogy Between Confidence and Beauty first, then a few other posts before writing off the whole blog.
DeleteThanks for taking a look anyway.
I have been perusing your blog and reading various articles. I even read the one you listed above and still feel you write from the perspective you are more intelligent than women.
DeleteWhile reading, I noticed you say a lot of extremely offensive things. I do not think you understand women or femininity at all. You encourage women to change their personality and appearance to please men. When most of the time if a women is over weight (based on health standards not magazine standards) she is extremely aware of it. However, she needs to love her body and herself first. This will then give her the confidence and self-esteem to attract the type of man she desires.
You also say men and women are two halves that complete a whole. What about same-sex relationships?
I think you are pushing the very ideals that make our society so well... ugly. These notions that everyone needs to fit into this cookie-cutter idea of what a man and a women should be is completely crazy. You place too much emphasis on what it is to be "masculine" vs "feminine". You have preconceived notions of what these terms represent based on what marketing and society has dictated. Sure, some of it is based off biology and natural tendencies, but not to the extremes we see today.
I do not believe you write this blog out of malice but more from a male dominated old-fashioned view and I believe that is my biggest concern. I also think that may be why your ideas come off so repulsive to all of the women I have showed this too out of my repulsion. I think you need a more up-to-date version of how women perceive sex and our sexuality due to birth control, fashion, and a more sex-positive attitude the country is taking.
I am a 23 year old woman getting my masters degree in the US and I agree with everything Andrew has said in this blog thus far. Women who have been happily married for much of their lives echo this advice - I wouldn't be so quick to judge if I were you.
DeleteI don't think Andrew's view points are old fashion at all, frankly it's very common. He isn't speaking just from HIS point of view. My best friend is a guy(he's not gay, I friend zoned him) and he's stated the same thing that Andrew has on his blog from day 1. He speaks for the modern man of our time, this is just how they think. They can't change what they're genetically programmed to like, I've studied biological anthropology and human behavior in college and it will always be "masculine" vs. "feminine" to varying degrees. You may not like what you're hearing or want to accept that the majority of men think this way, but Andrew is only trying to HELP women broaden the pool of men they want to attract, not criticize(you want to see offensive female bashing blogs? just go to Donlak, it's disgusting over there, makes Andrew look like a saint). I've applied tips from Andrew and my best friend to my dating life and i've had a lot of success with their methods. It's not about compromising yourself for a man, it's about changing your mindset on how to approach your situations with men.
DeleteAndrew I hope you do not let any of the negative comments get to you. I don't know how many women you have helped, but you have definitely helped me. I was far too focused on my personality, wit, intelligence, educational achievements, my travel adventures, my career success, etc thinking these things would attract a man. And I was perpetually single, wondering my guys blew me off after a few dates. Now, after reading EVERY post of yours, I'm in a great relationship and turning heads. Thankfully I had some good "raw material" to work with so to speak, but the results of focusing just some of my energy on improving my looks have really paid off. I can't thank you enough!
DeleteE.
@thefemaleperspective The "boys will be boys", eh?
DeleteThe double standard is here: men should be accepted as they are, because this supposedly their nature & why should they change? Apparently, men are immune to social values... They are simply acting on their nature.
But women should change their nature to fit this narrow view of femininity to attract a mate; or their current state has nothing to do with their nature - they've been brainwashed by society to act like men! Adjusting themselves to men's wants/needs supposedly means they're getting in touch with their true feminine nature. Apparently, they aren't able to identify on their own who they are, how they feel, what they think or what makes them happy. They need someone to inform them what's what - such as men or "society".
This fails to address why movements to give women more social, economic & legal freedom occurred to begin with. Many women felt stifled - unable to act out their own nature.
And now, we're told - stifle wit, stifle intelligence, stifle philosophies, stifle talent, etc, if you want love & loyalty in the form of a long-term relationship.
What I see here is a lack of empathy & validating one's own feelings as some "standard" and invalidating others' feeling because you are unable to see outside your own. This blog asks women to empathize with & accomodate men's feelings - what they value. That's well & good, a healthy part of any relationship. But the same empathy is not being given in return. Instead, women's feelings are being questioned (are they her values or society's?) & invalidated (she doesn't really want/need respect; just to be adored). IMO, this is a form of misogyny, a distrust of women & their ability to be emotionally honest with themselves & others. This is a projection though - who is really being emotionally dishonest?
Before anyone can get anywhere in forming healthy, mutually beneficial romantic relationships, they need to understand & accept women's individual needs, traits & desires as genuine & honest & valid - as much so as their own. And men don't really understand or accept if they're suggesting women change their individual nature (NOT the same as self-improvement).
I don't believe men & women are inherently incompatible or opposed, but individuals needs to do some honest self-examination regarding their genuine needs & what is really selfish desire, and from there they can learn to accomodate without being unfulfilled door mats. This is shedding the ego.... but this blog sounds like it operates from a very narrow ego, one which is easily threatened & seeks to control & adapt contexts to it rather than broaden out & become adaptable.
I too am uncomfortable with the "boys will be boys" distinction because it is as insulting to men as it is to women.
DeleteHowever I am sure that Andrew explicitly stated somewhere on this blog that he is not suggesting that women change their overall character if they are not ultra feminine by nature. I take what he says as presentation advice, so there are certain nuances which will make a woman more attractive to a man but those nuances are not representative of a whole character.
In a similar way, many men like to pay on dates and to make shows of strength to demonstrate that they can act as a woman's protector. It doesn't mean that those behaviors are part of a world view of womankind that they might embrace. Often men treat women a certain way because it's what they have learnt growing up and feel it is respectful. Good men do not adjust the level of respect they show in accordance with how attractive they find a woman. Well I'm going on a bit of a tangent...
This blog may come across as preaching to women or asking them to change, but it is a blog written for the benefit of women to help them in dating. It is not written for men so it won't validate what some men may get wrong. I don't believe Andrew's advice is any less valid because he is male, and I would not give his advice any greater respect if he was a woman, and not a man.
Of course you should not force yourself to be feminine if you actually aren't. That being said, I know many women who show feminine traits but are constantly making themselves more masculine. I also know many who say they aren't that into makeup and haircare, when the truth is, they want to look good but are too lazy to make the effort. The social norms run pretty deep, and a lot of women are not acting true to their nature. Probably the same amount as the men who are trying to identify with women and as a result have no success with them. I am naturally feminine, and therefore appreciate the posts on femininity. My parents have basically told me that in order to prove my worth I must get an Msc in Finance, but my nature is more directed towards arts and literature.
DeleteOther than that, I agree with what Karen said. A man who uses the phrase "boys will be boys"/"men will be men"/"I'm just a guy"/"men will get away with what you let them get away with" will lose my respect. He may think that to be the truth, and it might be, but he cannot demand respect as a decent human being the next moment. He has to make a choice. Either he is an absolute dog and is to be treated as such or he is a real man, who'll receive admiration and respect from a woman. In this particular area there is no double standard - the standard of moral and conduct are the same for men and women and a man claiming anything else is one I'd steer clear of. Making excuses for an entire gender is petty and childish.
I like what you said in your last paragraph, Sophie. I would definitely cast a cynical eye at a man who said "boys will be boys" to me on a date. My impression would be that he's a bit of a cad and is preempting bad behaviour, in an attempt to excuse himself after the fact. At the very least, it sounds to me like the perspective of someone who isn't as likely to hold himself accountable, or doesn't have a consistent enough standard for himself.
Delete"I also know many who say they aren't that into makeup and haircare, when the truth is, they want to look good but are too lazy to make the effort." Yes I believe this is true. But I think there are women who are genuinely comfortable with not doing much with their looks because they don't maintain an interest in it. The clue is in how they react to other women. For instance, I know I could be doing more myself but I don't resent women who make more of an effort than me. It isn't always laziness or lack of self-care which causes some women not to wish to make many improvements. For some, it just isn't something they make a priority. But obviously, depending on what you prioritise, it will have an impact on your dating life, which is something I accept.
"Saying no to your man when he wants sex is analogous to him saying no to you when you look to him for emotional stability, direction, comfort or protection"
ReplyDeleteAlthough emotional and sexual needs may have the same importance to men and women, they are not that easily comparable. I am not saying this in ignorance of the male sex drive. I have a high sex drive myself, and have never been in a position where I turn my boyfriend down for sex, simply because I've never wanted to.
But a man refusing to protect his wife has worse consequences than a woman refusing to have sex with her husband. A lot of the situations you are mentioning in previous posts, like a man refusing to stand up to the shitty car salesman, will have certain consequences. A man will probably get sex 24 hours later, when his wife is in a better mood, or he has given her the emotional support she needs (lack of emotional support often being the reason why the sex isn't happening). I think a man who isn't able to recognize when his wife needs some space, won't be success with relationships long term. Sometimes you need to be "the bigger person" and say 'fair enough' and leave it. You can be sure there are times when you're having a bad day and the woman who loves you won't give you shit about it.
I think the analogy works better over some period of time, say a few days, rather than a one-off scenario.
I would probably never turn down my boyfriend for sex...but something about telling me I 'have to' put out makes me uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteWho said you "had to put out"?
DeleteAn analogy is an analogy. A lot of readers here read way too much into it. The message I get is that when I deny sex to my guy, he would feel as rejected as i would if my deed for emotion support is denied by him. That's it.
DeleteTypo: need.
DeleteHi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteCan you write about age gaps in relationships? Is ten years older too much? I'm in my mid twenties and the guy I am interested in is in his mid thirties.
Thank you.
There are a few posts about this already. Search for "age" and "older women" and you will find them.
DeleteI disagree with Andrew on those posts. I think it is perfectly fine if a man is around ten years older. Twenty years older is another thing...
DeleteI get and agree with the idea that attending to sexual needs is a priority for a guy and attending to emotional needs is a priority to a woman. But I disagree that the analogy sets it up that it would be wrong for a woman to say no to sex or a guy to say no to emotional support...
ReplyDeleteFirst, there are many men that don't know how to emotionally support well- they can't handle a woman crying, don't know how to comfort, have trouble listening to support and not fix the problem... men (and women) should always be working on their ability to support their partner... but there ARE times when its acceptable to say no. If you're own emotional stability is at risk, you cannot assist another, if you are not well informed, there in person, etc. all of these things can make it difficult/impossible to support. In the same way, women (or men) should feel able to say no to sex in a relationship... I know there's a cliche in "I have a headache," but as a person who gets migraines, there is NO way that I could have sex during a migraine... I also don't feel comfortable usually having sex on my period or if I'm ill or super stressed, exhausted, even hung over... and know that in some cases when I've tried (because I want to fulfill that need for my partner) its been horrible... horrible sex is not better than delayed sex. If you can't complete because of pain or illness or for whatever reason is holding you back, then everyone is miserable.
I say all of this, while also believing that you can always say no, but you should NEVER use sex as a weapon. Do not say no, because you know it will annoy him or get back at him for something he's done. Do not say no because of a quota in your mind or to manipulate him. If you say no only when you literally do not want to or cannot have sex (physically/emotionally), and you explain these things to your partner... he should understand- he doesn't have to like it, but if he understands... then he'll also know whenever you say yes- you're really in it. Sex is better with two full participants. You should never have sex if you really don't want to (and I'm not talking about not wanting to because you're just lazy or hungry or whatever). You control your own body and your own choices.
Put into this perspective, though (Andrew's analogy above) should help on the lazy/stupid days. And may also help you to explain to your man why its important that he not back off when you're upset or why he should just listen when you're venting. Help him define an "emotional support orgasm" for you and you'll both be happier with the understanding and knowing that when you reach for the other-- for support or for sex-- that you're in it together.
I actually agree with Andrew on this. Although, I think his assessment of male vs. female needs should be a little more evenly split; women do crave sexual attention and men sometimes need pure expressions of love and affection.
ReplyDeleteYou should want to have sex with the person you are monogamously committed to. You should routinely look forward to it. Even if you're pissed off at them. The only time when this might be dimmed, is in situations of genuine betrayal, where your life was turned upside down by an offense or you were callously put in health danger because your partner or spouse was sleeping around with other people and both partners agreed the relationship would be monogamous.
Otherwise, you should be able to have petty arguments with your partner, yet still want to have sex with them. Even if you'd be more testy, than affectionate, during it. Most importantly, it should never be used as a tool for control. Both should be equal in the relationship, not one having the role of parent or authoritarian over the other. That's toxic for both parties.
Ana, I probably haven't emphasized enough the fact that I do recognize that women value sex and men value emotional support. In fact, I think both rank not too far below one another on a man's and woman's list of needs.
DeleteI agree with your comment completely.
I'd kind of like to see a post about supporting a mans emotional needs. You've touched on this a little with the confidence posts. But I'd like to know more about showing a guy support without smothering him or making him feel emasculated...
DeleteAndrew, am I wrong in assuming that with the advent of porn, guys aren't going to really "need" sex as often. I'm really worried that as we get older, that there's no way that I can compete with cyber girls for *my* sexual needs. And unfortunately, feeling wanted is part of that sexual need. But it's near impossible to find guys who don't watch porn these days...and you can't really regulate it.
ReplyDeleteRead the post titled Don't Let Pornography Become Your Substitute and then read How To Look Good in During Sex and Never Say No to Sex.
DeleteReal and good sex trumps porn 90% of the time.
Real and good sex trumps porn 100% of the time!
Delete100% = not true, porn provides a hint of the variety one woman can't.
DeleteDear Andrew, I have been following your blog for a while now and it has greatly contributed to my success with guys, especially recently, to the point that 1 month ago I have been asked out by a guy i really like for the 1st time and got my 1st ever boyfriend. Thank you so much.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as relationships don''t come very easily to me anyway, I have found it really difficult to know how to behave when you're in 1 compared to when you're dating e.g. should i still try to not initiate/show too much interest, should you talk to other guys still (it really upsets my bf when i mention some of my guy friends likes me even when he knows i don't return their feelings, but I'd have thought it should make him want me more, as it shows i'm desirable - this used to work in my favour when i was dating?) So do all the rules applied in the dating world still persist in a relationship? Would you at all be able to write some posts on LTR advice since you have experience in them please?
"but I'd have thought it should make him want me more, as it shows i'm desirable"
DeleteThis might work if witnessed first hand, and you brush of the other guy who showed interest. But if you bring it up, it shows that you are thinking about other guys, and that's no a turn on.
You see, men claim higher value to females by display a high social position. And female get turned on by this. But it does not work in the revers.
Men conquer the world, females conquer the male heart, and thus gain indirect access to the world.
So even if a female attracts a man in the starting phase through good looks, she will claim higher value to the male through her ability to capturing his heart. Not the world.
The females superior beauty can still bring male attention even after they established a relation, but she needs to act as if no other man existed in her mind - something that will happen naturally if she indeed views him as a superior man.
The man gets to claim pride for having enough value to capture a beautiful woman, and this will be a confirmation of his power to himself and his peers. But again, it's not the females job to flaunt it.
In fact, the more she can hide her beauty to others, while still being obviously beautiful, the more value will it convey to the man. The hight of power is to capture the most beautiful woman, and her being so committed to the man that she hides herself from all other men.
A woman who keeps her other options open is obviously a woman who is not committed to the man, a display of lower value on the part of the man. The less value the woman has, the worse her doubts will reflects on the man.
The worse situation is to not even being able to get the full attention of a really ugly woman.
So while a woman will get turned on by a mans intentional and successful act of gaining the attention of the world, a man will feel powerful if other men compliment him for the beauty of his wife, while the wife herself tries her best to not show her beauty to other men, because she does not want their attention. And thus, the other men will not compliment the man on the beauty of the wife directly, but will rather be noticed indirectly.
flaunting your beauty might work while dating, since you are unclaimed. But once claimed, if the man does not success in submitting you, it will reflect poorly on his capabilities.
I will repeat.
Even if a female attracts a man in the starting phase through good looks, she will claim higher value to the male through her ability to capturing his heart. Not the world.
Being beutifull will bring pride to the man, but will not raise her value as a person in the eyes of the man. That will only happen as a consequence of your ability to capture his heart.
A beatiful woman that can not capture the heart of the man is mearly a trophy, a display of higher value to the world. And this causes her to be powerless, neither having the world directly nor indirectly.
Yaser, thanks a lot for your eloquent reply! I am guessing you're a guy as well?
DeleteYes, some of my guy friends have mentioned this, but are you sure a lack of desirability to other men is not just something that guys say they want but they don't really i.e. just like girls say they want a good guy, but g for the bad??
What concerns me is that i feel he's over-reacting e.g. last week he got super upset and walked out on me (he's usually very calm) when i mentioned that a guy whom i'm not even friends with and don't spend any time with tried to kiss me in the past and that i didn't let him. I mean i understand if i reciprocated, but i didn't - surely he should realize that other guys' reaction to me is beyond my control, it's how I react to them that matters?
Also, I feel his jealousy might be manipulative. He says boys and girls can't be just friends as the guy always has certain motifs, bu that he's fine with me hanging out with my guy friends (most of my friends are guys and i actually get on better with guys, as girls always end up getting jealous and often end up hurting me tbh). Nonetheless, i notice him getting annoyed when i mention a guy friend.
At the same time, a lot of his good friends are girls and his best friend is a girl as well, and he says he loves her, but just as a sister, which concerns me as he says boys and girls can't be just friends. I mean it may be understandable, as he is adopted, so doesn't have any blood sisters anyway, plus i really trust him (he is the one that insists on meeting my friends and relatives, tells all his friends about me, demanded exclusivity in the 1st place etc), but am still a bit concerned whether these relationships with girls are healthy.
So my questions are 1) Can i continue hanging out with my guy friends given the situation? 2) Is such a reaction to my mention of other guys healthy or should i view it as a red flag (he seems very confident, but to me this indicates severe insecurity; or could this behaviour be manipulative?) 3) Should I be concerned about his relationships with other girls and what should i do about this if so?
I'm 21 and he is 24 and we live in the UK by the way. Thank you very much.
Ok, the answer was way to long. Over 2000 words. Here it is:
Deletehttp://y4ser.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/13617/
A woman having sex when she doesn't feel loved is deeply upsetting. It is not the same as listenning to someone discuss their feelings while you have sexual needs. Men's affection precedes sexual behaviour in dating and that shouldn't change as the relationship continues. I am a very sexual person, but only when I feel cared for and I would never have a quickie or whatnot if it didn't feel right. Men have a responsibility with women. Women's responsibility is to be sensual, open to sex, active in awakenning themselves- they should never have to stand up to a moment the way one should be their for a friend in need. Sex and love are not analagous needs in men and women as you seem to be implying. For me at least, the background of love must come first. You imply that men and women should give equally when they don't want to, but I disagree. Your post about valentines day says it all. I'm glad my ex-boyfriend was very, and sincerely, romantic, for itself and because it gives me something I need to be open to sex. You writing there that women should be satsfied with exclusivity and suppression of desire to pursue other women and not require 'emasculating' things like romance is so cold. If all guys were like that, I'd never date...
ReplyDeleteI agree. There is a bit of hypocrisy here, which is typical when a man can only see his own benefits but is incapable of seeing things from a woman's POV. The author clearly wants a woman who's only having sex when she's feeling loved - someone who chooses to sleep with a few men she's in love with and never have sex for the sake of it. Once she has attached herself to a man, she is supposed to transform into a woman who can separate sex and emotions, for his benefits.
DeleteThere is a lot entitlement in here and unrealistic expectations. I'm not surprised if the author stays single forever.
Science!
ReplyDeleteI actually think this analogy is telling in many ways bc it gets at the heart of what each sex has that the other craves. In the same way that women need time to warm up to sleeping with a guy even if they like them, I think men sometimes need time to open up in terms of their own emotions. A guy who really pushed a girl to sleep with him when she was hesitating would be a jerk, and a woman who really pushed a guy to commit to a relationship early on would be seen as needy and insecure. In both cases all you could really do is be open about your desires and intentions and then respect the other persons boundaries.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, you seem to overlook the physical aspect of sex, more specifically what it does to a woman when she had sex if she's not physically ready for it. This is two-fold:
ReplyDelete1. Women are physically different when it comes to how quickly and under which conditions their bodies become ready for sex; aka "wet". The ability to control this varies greatly from woman to woman, and depends on both genetics, physical maturity, sexual experience, self-control and awareness. Few young women have the ability to "turn on" when they want to, and many find it increasingly more difficult if they try to force it. This does NOT mean she doesn't care about the man she's with, it's simply how the female body works. A woman might easily flirt and appear aroused in her body language, when she's completely dry down below. This has been the cause of more than one awkward moment. More experienced women know their own triggers, and manage to make it come naturally when they want to. (Women can have a sex drive like that of men, but that's beside the point.)
2. A woman who have sex when they don't feel like it, would often start out not being entirely physically ready ("wet") when penetration is initiated. They then run the risk of ruining sex for themselves in the long run, if this is done repeatedly. It's also not good for the dynamic in the relationship, as she might end up (unknowingly) resenting him for it.
I'll mention my personal experience, to show how bad it can get: I was in a (at the time) good relationship. I did what you suggest here in your post, and agreed to sex even when I didn't feel like it personally, because I truly cared for my by. I wanted to be close to him and make him feel good. I gradually started associating sex less with pleasure, love and lust, and more with feelings of duty, patience and emotional support... then impatience, uncomfortableness and eventually pain. I gradually developed a condition where sex became chronically painful (google vulvodynia if need more info). The relationship couldn't take it, and ended after 4 years. I was 19-23 years old. My doctors have told me this typically affect "nice girls", and is more normal than people generally assume. I managed to get past it, but it took me years until I stopped feeling the long term effects. (My doctors first advice: don't have sex, then buy a dildo without using it... baby steps indeed)
On the topic of lubricants: Lubricants can help the situation if the woman is dry, but only if she's sufficiently aroused beforehand.
You need to rethink your approach this if you want a LTR to work.
that's the thing. because if you just start having sex because he wants, even when you aren't warmed up, you'll start to see sex as a duty, and it will as enjoyable as your man listening to your venting.
Deleteit's interesting how everyone is just ignoring you, because it doesn't physically hurt men when they are venting to you.
This is retarded..there is a huge difference between a man being sympathetic and affectionate towards his woman when he doesn't really feel like it and a woman forcing hewrself to have sex with her man when she's not in the mood for it..the main difference is that it is physically very painful for a woman to have sex(and downright potentrially damaging both physically and psychologically for her to do so).
ReplyDeleteWhen a woman's not naturally aroused(meaning it doesn't come from within, out of sheer hormonal drive) her vagina is generally bone dry and tight which would make penetration extremely painful..or with a bottle of lube, maybe bearable.
It wouldn't cost a guy anything to cuddle or listen to her whining for a few minutes, on the other hand.
I think this is a good point, Andrew, and it made me think in reverse: maybe we need to watch out for the co-dependency side of this subject. Mature adults are responsible for their own needs. I believe emotional support or sex should be given free-willing. Nobody is obligated to fulfill the other's needs -- we do it with pleasure and for love but when we can -- it's utopia to think we can do it ALL the time. We just can't. In my own experience (and I would say generally), men might not always be the greatest emotional supporters, although in certain moments they can be, depending on the moment, the subject, how the woman approaches/asks for it, and probably a variety of other things. And women might not always be the sex heaven men wish they were -- a good proof could be the existence of pornography. Therefore, I think rather than women always saying yes for sex, and men always being pressed to help emotionally, maybe it's the opposite: women may need to learn how to support themselves emotionally, be it by meditating, learning how to re-center, being gentle with themselves, or reaching to a girlfriend (and not another man). And for men... doesn't masturbation counts like sex? It's very healthy as everybody knows it and it's great sex, because it's with our own selves. Masturbation is something everybody should be adept of, regardless of dating status, it's good sex with the best person you know.
ReplyDeleteAnother solution is perhaps that women need to learn how to help their men help them emotionally, learning how to ask for the support they need, training them, explaining, communicating? And the same for men: learn how to obtain the sex they need from their women, by understanding what would help their women help them (courtship, romance, connection...or just asking nicely? -- which happened to me once (a man asking sincerely) and the men was so authentic and vulnerable but not weak, he was asking not demanding, it melted me in a sweet way and I did feel like pleasing my man in that moment, he did it really well).
All above may be a naive way to think or not good solutions, but I can't help but thinking that each adult is responsible primarily to fulfill their own needs, and it's nice when someone else steps up to help with our them, but it's no one's obligation at all. And still, these are only tricks for WHEN men and women can't be there for each other, for the most part they are, right? My two cents... - Ana
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ReplyDelete