Most women who complain that they "don't get any attention from men" actually mean that they don't get attention from the men they want. And the simple advice for women in this situation (which I have seen on other blogs, and have occasionally given out myself) is sometimes appropriate: "you aren't hot enough to get the guys you want; lower your standards." However, in most cases, I think there is deeper phenomenon at work.
Women tend to be aware of and rate their looks fairly accurately. I know this because a lot of readers send me pictures saying "I think I am an X out of 10, can you tell me what I really am?" Although I always refuse to give them my numerical opinion (because all men think differently), their guesses are usually very close to what I would have ranked them.
So why would they set the bar so much higher than what they know they can get? Some might point out that their "delusion" is caused by their experiences getting men who are out of their league for sex and casual dating. And though I agree that this happens, it doesn't capture the whole picture. Women just aren't that easily deceived about their own physical attractiveness. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that the problem is primarily an internal one.
Each of us has an inherent knowledge of our own capabilities and dispositions. We know the inner workings of our own mind: how honest we are, how prone we are to mood swings, our insecurities and strengths, what we've experienced, what we still need to learn, the strength of our ambitions, etc. This translates into an excellent knowledge of our personal capabilities, our personal potential. We all know roughly what we could achieve, whether or not we have achieved it. Occasionally we modify this self-perception when we realize the extent of strengths we didn't know we had, or weaknesses that have greater implications than we'd imagined. But in general, we know ourselves well; we know what we are capable of becoming. This is true in all aspects of our lives: business, working out, academic learning - everywhere. It also applies to dating. Because we know ourselves, we also know roughly what we should be able to get when it comes to the opposite sex.
A statement that often accompanies women's complaints about not getting the men they want is something to the effect of "I know I am a catch. I have so much love to give a man. Why can't men see that??" This is a symptom of the above-described phenomenon: you know that you have the right "raw material" to attract the kind of man you want (in fact, "the kind of man you want" is partially defined by your self-knowledge), but you are confused about why it hasn't happened for you yet.
The reason for this is simple: your self-perception of your potential is roughly accurate, but you aren't living up to that potential. You aren't the person you know you can be. You have the capability, but you haven't used it. You have the potential, but you haven't fulfilled it. You know you can be a fun and exciting person to be around when you feel comfortable, but you haven't confronted your insecurity in social situations, so men don't realize this. You know you have a great figure, but you haven't learned yet to show it off by correcting your posture, so no one notices it. You know you have great hair, but you don't put the effort in to style it well, so it does you little good. You know you are pretty, but you haven't confronted your fear of looking a little awkward, and this has dramatically slowed your efforts at learning how to dress yourself well. Your are well aware of your inner feminine self and you instincts to nurture and love, but you suppress them (as you've been implicitly told to do by your parents or the culture around you) and men assume you are cold and boring. You know that you are an incredibly sexual person, but because of your strict conservative upbringing, you cloak it in "modesty" and men are turned off.
The reason women can't get what they think they deserve is that we (men and women alike) always peg our standards to what we know we can be, not to what we are, while members of the opposite sex judge us - understandably - only on what we are currently. They have no access to the inner workings of our mind; and even if they did, they would have no guarantee that we'd ever reach the potential this would reveal to them. So your discontent in dating boils down to the fact that you aren't living up to your own standards - yet. Incidentally, this also explains why most people have such an aversion to settling: our subconscious knowledge of what we "should" be able to get is achievable (if not currently accurate), so it seems defeatist to accept something less.
I've illustrated an example of this in the diagram below. A woman who is a 5.5 out of 10 has the potential to be a 7.5, so she "knows" that she can get men of that caliber (red arrows). She is constantly setting her sights on men who are in the 7-8 range (dark blue arrows), and she is constantly being rejected by them. She doesn't understand why, since she thinks these men are in her league, when the truth is that she could get into their league. Her situation isn't helped by the fact that a lot of the men she wants haven't met their full potential yet either, meaning that they - also wrongly - have their sights set on women of an even higher caliber (light blue arrows).
So the bad news is that you probably can't get the men that you think you can get. But the good news is that you probably can eventually get the men that you think you can get - assuming you are willing to work at it, and do. The biggest takeaway, though, is that if you aren't getting the men you want (but you think that they are in your league), your first move shouldn't be to lower your standards, it should be to self-improve.
Related Posts
Women tend to be aware of and rate their looks fairly accurately. I know this because a lot of readers send me pictures saying "I think I am an X out of 10, can you tell me what I really am?" Although I always refuse to give them my numerical opinion (because all men think differently), their guesses are usually very close to what I would have ranked them.
So why would they set the bar so much higher than what they know they can get? Some might point out that their "delusion" is caused by their experiences getting men who are out of their league for sex and casual dating. And though I agree that this happens, it doesn't capture the whole picture. Women just aren't that easily deceived about their own physical attractiveness. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that the problem is primarily an internal one.
Each of us has an inherent knowledge of our own capabilities and dispositions. We know the inner workings of our own mind: how honest we are, how prone we are to mood swings, our insecurities and strengths, what we've experienced, what we still need to learn, the strength of our ambitions, etc. This translates into an excellent knowledge of our personal capabilities, our personal potential. We all know roughly what we could achieve, whether or not we have achieved it. Occasionally we modify this self-perception when we realize the extent of strengths we didn't know we had, or weaknesses that have greater implications than we'd imagined. But in general, we know ourselves well; we know what we are capable of becoming. This is true in all aspects of our lives: business, working out, academic learning - everywhere. It also applies to dating. Because we know ourselves, we also know roughly what we should be able to get when it comes to the opposite sex.
A statement that often accompanies women's complaints about not getting the men they want is something to the effect of "I know I am a catch. I have so much love to give a man. Why can't men see that??" This is a symptom of the above-described phenomenon: you know that you have the right "raw material" to attract the kind of man you want (in fact, "the kind of man you want" is partially defined by your self-knowledge), but you are confused about why it hasn't happened for you yet.
The reason for this is simple: your self-perception of your potential is roughly accurate, but you aren't living up to that potential. You aren't the person you know you can be. You have the capability, but you haven't used it. You have the potential, but you haven't fulfilled it. You know you can be a fun and exciting person to be around when you feel comfortable, but you haven't confronted your insecurity in social situations, so men don't realize this. You know you have a great figure, but you haven't learned yet to show it off by correcting your posture, so no one notices it. You know you have great hair, but you don't put the effort in to style it well, so it does you little good. You know you are pretty, but you haven't confronted your fear of looking a little awkward, and this has dramatically slowed your efforts at learning how to dress yourself well. Your are well aware of your inner feminine self and you instincts to nurture and love, but you suppress them (as you've been implicitly told to do by your parents or the culture around you) and men assume you are cold and boring. You know that you are an incredibly sexual person, but because of your strict conservative upbringing, you cloak it in "modesty" and men are turned off.
The reason women can't get what they think they deserve is that we (men and women alike) always peg our standards to what we know we can be, not to what we are, while members of the opposite sex judge us - understandably - only on what we are currently. They have no access to the inner workings of our mind; and even if they did, they would have no guarantee that we'd ever reach the potential this would reveal to them. So your discontent in dating boils down to the fact that you aren't living up to your own standards - yet. Incidentally, this also explains why most people have such an aversion to settling: our subconscious knowledge of what we "should" be able to get is achievable (if not currently accurate), so it seems defeatist to accept something less.
I've illustrated an example of this in the diagram below. A woman who is a 5.5 out of 10 has the potential to be a 7.5, so she "knows" that she can get men of that caliber (red arrows). She is constantly setting her sights on men who are in the 7-8 range (dark blue arrows), and she is constantly being rejected by them. She doesn't understand why, since she thinks these men are in her league, when the truth is that she could get into their league. Her situation isn't helped by the fact that a lot of the men she wants haven't met their full potential yet either, meaning that they - also wrongly - have their sights set on women of an even higher caliber (light blue arrows).
 |
| Rank out of Ten (Combined Looks and Appearance) |
So the bad news is that you probably can't get the men that you think you can get. But the good news is that you probably can eventually get the men that you think you can get - assuming you are willing to work at it, and do. The biggest takeaway, though, is that if you aren't getting the men you want (but you think that they are in your league), your first move shouldn't be to lower your standards, it should be to self-improve.
Related Posts
Awesome post! It might be your most important one.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant!!! Always keep improving yourself seems to be the light in the dark tunnel you always paint lol.
ReplyDeleteAt least there's hope.
Andrew, I have been losing weight over the past 2 years with diet/exercise, but still far from being a socially attractive weight, should I continue to try dating now (limited success, decent amount of e-mails but not much follow through or no 2nd date) or wait until I am a passable size? (Was 290, 180 now, avg height)
DeleteI am 29 and it will take 1 - 2 yrs to get to my goal weight.
If I want to get married, should I settle now or wait until I lose weight so I can attract a better man?
Date now--you never know when you might find the right guy. Congrats on the progress and keep going. What is the weight you want to achieve? Let's say it's 130. Once you hit 150 then I would start dating full throttle because I bet those last 20 lbs will be the hardest (but maybe not) and start to really think about getting serious with what options of men you have available to you.
DeleteNow, if you know for a fact you can get to 130 or whatever then it may make sense to hold off a bit til then.
I recommend people eat food, but specially those who want to loose weight to see the documentary Fat Head.
Delete(you need to log in)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs
It's kinda boring, but teaches you some really needed lessons about how the body works.
"The reason women can't get what they think they deserve is that we (men and women alike) always peg our standards to what we know we can be, not to what we are, while members of the opposite sex judge us - understandably - only on what we are currently."
ReplyDeleteThis thought and idea is pretty interesting.
I had that epiphany moment with the last guy I dated, when I realised that I wasn't selling myself to him the way I wanted to. It's a very apt post and has definitely been food for thought.
DeleteAndrew, all this information sounds all very logical and sound and makes perfect snese EXCEPT that the reality does not seem to bear this out. Maybe my observations are limited to a small segment geographically where I live, I don't know but all I know is what I see around me - And every single minute of every single day I see really really ugly women with a reasonably good looking man pushing around a stroller with a bub in it - so men don't just "use" ubly women for sex, but actually MARRY them or hang around and have kids with them.
ReplyDeleteNow you think as maybe I don't have good judgement of women's looks but as you have pointed out, women like myself have a very very good idea of their SMY as well as that of their "competition". By ugly I don't just mean fat because fat women with a pretty face may have been slim once, before bub came along. But these women I see every day are truly ugly - some actually look like men in drag. If I sound shitty then that's because I see truly attractive women all the time unable to find decent men - and not because of their high standards. Truly I men complain about women being unpredictable and saying one thing and doing another but so do men themselves !!!!
When I see ugly women with decent looking men, I always assume she *was* better looking at one point and then let herself go after the kids/marriage.
DeleteAlso, it is possible they used her just just for sex and she got knocked up so they guy married her for the kid, not her.
I think people see different things in different people. So you'll find those women ugly but their men won't. For example I'm pretty curvy and some men don't like that. A guy rejected me once "being too curvy" he said. Well I'm not losing sleep over it. Then other men have told me they really like my body. Whatever.
DeleteDon't worry about other men's wives. In general, Andrew is right. If there are so many exceptions, then perhaps you are looking for them. People see what they want to see or what they feel. I don't think that you seriously believe that bettering your appearance and personality makes you worst off. So, what is the point of the comment? I say this with the utmost respect for what you are saying and not out of malice. This may not be the case, but I have heard this statement before by a friend uncertain about her own future.
DeleteIn the end, I think that you have to remember that you are improving upon your qualities for yourself as well as to get the man of your dreams. Why judge others along the way? Maybe those women have a multitude of amazing qualities? Andrew cannot teach everyone to be the best person, someone that everyone would want to marry. Some things are pre-determined or on you. These are the controllable variables. Again, I am sure that you are wonderful inside-and-out. I just believe that it is counter-intuitive raise these questions.
Andrew-As a woman, I know that I would be happy if I could find a man of similar attractiveness to myself, but I've heard that many men think that dating women who are only as attractive as themselves would be settling. Do you think this true, and if so, could you provide some more insight into this?
ReplyDeleteI would be very happy to get a woman of equal attractiveness to myself. I feel like my looks would be of more worth to me if I had been born a woman, since they're more valued by men than by women. lol Not saying I wish I were a woman.
DeleteCan petite to average height woman, say about 5`2- 5`5 ft realistically attract men who 6 ft and over, or do taller men typically prefer tall women
ReplyDeleteMen don't care about height.
DeleteThat's a female obsession.
I can answer that! Some men who are 6ft tall and over are definitely attracted to petite women. Of course, as Andrew has mentioned before, all me have different taste. Some men who are short prefer only tall women and visa versa. In my experience the height of the man does not dictate whether they are into tall or short women although men usually prefer women who are shorter than they are. I'm 5'3 and went out with a guy who was 6'6 and he didn't seem to have an issue with my height at all.
DeleteWhat about body type? Could a woman who is slim but maybe not very toned, as in a slight tummy and muffin top but working to get more in shape attract a man who is muscular if they are similarly attractive facially ?
DeleteAs Andrew is fond of saying, men's tastes vary, so it's entirely possible.
DeleteJust because a guy is lean, tall, or muscular does not mean he wants the same in a woman, and certainly not to the same degree.
That said, if you're short and spilling over your yoga pants, you might want to develop more realistic expectations of what men you can get. Average girls don't get elite men, and vice versa.
Thanks Vicomte, and no I'm not "short and spilling over my yoga pants" hoping for an Ahnold look alike, so no need to worry about me being unrealistic, lol
DeleteI'm 5ft 4.5" (the half is important!). Something you can't change isn't worth worrying about.
DeleteI agree with Lucy. Just worry about what you can control. That said: yes, I am just short of 5'0" and my boyfriend is 6'2". I've known a number of other girls my height who have dated guys who are over 6'0". From what I've heard around, it seems that men don't care much about height unless the girl is more than several inches taller than him (and there are definitely exceptions there, too).
DeleteI've known only two tall men that have said they would rather date tall girls.
DeleteI have dated guys 6'3, 6'0, 6'4. my three important relationships.
I'm 5'3.
don't think they cared about it or thought they were settling. wouldn't worry if I were you. Although tall men, even if only average in looks can often get pretty girls because height means so much to women. I think they have more options so that might be something to factor in
Seriously, your height means absolutely nothing to a man. The only (incredibly minor) consideration is that kissing someone a foot and a half shorter than you is physically awkward in a limited number of mostly standing positions.
DeleteMen don't even notice other men's heights. Women are able to tell who the tallest man in a group is immediately. Unless a guy is extremely tall or extremely short, we don't notice, and we don't care. To us, the difference between a 5'3" girl and a 5'7" girl or a 5'10" man and a 6'2" man is nonexistent.
I'm only stressing this because most women don't understand how big the discrepancy is between the sexes. Women obsess. Men aren't even aware.
Yea I am 5'1.5 on a good day and none of my exes have been below 6feet...I don't think they care that much, infact one of them found my petiteness to be part of my charm
Deletebut I've heard that many men think that dating women who are only as attractive as themselves would be settling. Do you think this true, and if so, could you provide some more insight into this?
ReplyDeleteI saw a study that found relationships where the woman was a bit more physically attractive than the man where the most successful. I don`t think that means the mans sex rank is lesser than hers I think it means he "trades" more success, confidence, alpha, charisma, money etc. for her extra beauty points. It makes the man happy because he feels he gains by gaining beauty. It makes the woman happy because she feels she rises in status through his masculine strengths. And the woman is happy because she can be the beautiful one and the man can be happy because he is the strong and admiration worthy one.
I've said it before and so have many woman I know... we can't and won't date a man who looks better than us. We want to be the better looking one in the relationship. I will, however, date someone who "ties".
DeleteJ, I'd have to disagree with that. Maybe I'm just an exception, but I would date a man who is better looking than me. Sure, it might make me feel insecure at times, but if he genuinely loves, cares and is attracted to me, then I'm pretty sure that I would somehow learn to overcome my insecurities.
DeleteI don't honestly rate men in terms of looks that often. I tend to see them as individuals rather than put them on a scale. I'd only be reluctant to date a man more attractive than me if he made me feel inferior or like he was settling for me. I'd date someone less attractive. I think you both have to find each other sufficiently ravishing but where you sit objectively isn't the way you work that out...if that makes sense. And I have to do that because I have absolutely no idea how attractive I am. I've had some guys call me ugly to my face, I've had some men tell me I'm beautiful (and not when they're drunk). It's very confusing so I decided not to even worry about this and just make an effort to look as good as possible.
DeleteHmm, thinking... maybe I'm willing to trade down in a man's looks to trade up in his education, stability, and career departments. My automatic filtering out of men better looking than me is because I just know in order to date him, I will be giving up something else that is more important to me (otherwise he wouldn't be talking to me in the first place).
DeleteI often turn down men who are better looking than me but only have a high school degree and work in a job making minimum wage.
And, I figure they trade down in looks (ie going for me) because they know the women who are in their range look-wise wouldn't go for them because of their job/education situation.
So, they come to me and say, "Look, I'm better looking than you could normally get. The only draw back is that I only make $20,000 a year. Are you willing to deal?"
So, let's say I'm a 4. I'm willing to date a 2 who has a career vs a 4 or 5 who doesn't.
Oh, just a thought... I once dating a man who I would rate a 7. Decent looking, fit, enlisted in the army, smart, worked for the NSA, stable, spoke a second language. He had the same problem that Andrew posted about "Why can't I get the women I want".
Again, I think he was seeing himself with his potential value and not his true value. As I watched our relationship unfold, I knew within two weeks it wasn't going to go anywhere. I stuck with it because he was making so many mistakes it became a game to see how it would end. Anyways, needless to say, he would (as we all would) benefit from being able to see himself through others eyes rather then his own. Then maybe he would understand the problem better.
What I wouldn't give to see *myself* through others eyes for a day. I would learn so much about myself. At the same time, I'm scared that I would see something hideous.
This is a very astute post, but I think when referring to "reaching your potential" it really only applies to your physical potential. Making more money, being more well traveled, being more outgoing, being smarter... I really don't think these things play a role in whether a guy starts dating you or not. He dates you because he thinks your hot.
ReplyDeleteNow, they might play a role in keeping him, but you gotta get in the door first. So, really, and I'd stake my life's saving on it, if you are not able to date the men you want, work on improving your looks until you can. That's about the only thing you can do to improve your odds, look prettier.
It really is all about looks for men.
That's the most important thing, yes. Though remember that a average guy is going to be happy enough with an average girl so if a woman improves her "value" by 0.5 points that will oven be enough to bring her up to the threshold level for a whole new bunch of guys.
DeleteThe point is that small increases in attractiveness can make a difference, as long as your not pining after guys 2 points higher than you.
Forgot to add that in addition to appearance (assuming you've gotten that mostly maxed out) then personality is probably the 2nd most important thing. Being nice, feminine, giving, not a door mat, not bitchy (yes, we had this conversation ;) ) and sensual will be the things to work on.
DeleteA 3rd area would be to have something decent going on in your life. Men don't care as much about a woman's career as vice versa but a woman who has nothing going on in her life and is really lazy will be a turn-off. One exception is likely the upper-middle class guys who are earning 100k+ and want their wife to earn similarly so that they can have a pretty posh life. I was once in that earnings category (taking a sabbatical to travel and enjoy life at the moment) but I didn't care that much but at work I saw a lot of the people married with similarly high-earning people. But for me, and I think most guys, looks and personality will trump her earnings.
Finally, compatible goals are important. I want 4 kids or at least 3 so a woman who wants 0 or 1 is just not compatible even if she had all the things I described above.
"not a door mat" = very important! Actually I think this is one of the biggest turn-offs for a man.
DeleteI think a discussion of compatible goals is important to have early on. Who wants to date long enough to develop feelings only to find out that you want different things out of life? I'd like to have 2 or 3 kids and would like to date a man who's interested in the same. But how and when is it appropriate to bring that up?
I'd wait til dates 2-4, depending on the level of rapport you feel and then ask something like, "What are a couple of your dreams in life?" and see if he mentions kids. If he asks you can mention that as one of yours and see how he responds. I don't think women need to cower in fear to mention they want kids and a man who wants kids at the appropriate time a few dates in or even up front.
DeleteYou only need to fear that if you're going for a man out of your league who doesn't want anything serious, a player, or a man who doesn't want kids at all or for quite a while. But then you filter those guys out.
Basically, just don't pounce on the guy but a few dates in his fine once you know if you even would want to pursue anything further.
Change that to "what is one of your dreams?"
DeleteI have a friend who is very good looking. She doesn't get why a guy doesn't like her and he is also my friend, so sort of stuck in the middle. He said to me that it's her screaming laughter that annoys him and her 'neurotic' personality that makes him not like her. Girls, sometimes it's good to tone certain things down at the beginning of dating someone and later on, they might accept certain things about you that they might not have done early on?
DeleteI think you might be onto something here Finnish, I am one of those people who tend to be "out there"...I think I am being funny and while a lot of guys seem not to mind, there was this date I went on with a 9 who was a banker who I could tell did not like my attempt at over humour...sigh
DeleteAndrew do you think that it is a good idea to try online dating? What I mean is that I do tend to like guys of a high caliber and I was wondering if those guys do online dating. I feel that I don't meet the kind of guys I like on a frequent enough basis and it might be worth while to try online dating. If you think online dating is useful, do you know which ones are the best?
ReplyDeleteOn POF.com there are about 2-3x as many men as women so as long as you filter well you should be able to find some good candidates. Plus, if you write men who aren't way out of your league they should respond favorably because few men get written by women of equal "appeal."
DeleteTry it. You have little to lose if you have your head on straight while doing it.
I've never heard of pof.com I will look it up. I dont think I would write anyone a message though because that would be the same thing as initiating contact..
DeleteWhat's wrong with initiating contact? I think most men would be pleased to get some contact initiated from someone of their same level. I get lots of messages from women who are definitely below my league (not trying to sound cocky, just telling it how it is) and I always roll my eyes like WTF is she thinking? But I'm never rude. Some of them I respond to to be friends with if they seem cool though. But in the few cases where a woman of roughly equal value message me then I happily write back. I went out with one recently.
DeleteNow, beyond the initial contact, the guy should start to make most of the pursuing effort (at least enough) but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with women saying hi to a guy in real life or online and see if he picks up the ball from there.
In fact, due to feminism's excessive demonization of men objectifying and harassing women and some girls' nuclear rejections, many men are more gunshy than many women wish they were and so women showing interest or initiating some contact can help to overcome that and let the guy know he won't be nuked for approaching.
You make some good points but part of the filtering process is filtering out guys who don't make the first move because a woman will not know the level of interest that a man has in her if she makes the first move. Andrew wrote a blog entry about this and I totally agree. I do think that women can and should signal to a guy that she would welcome his advance but if he doesn't ask her out etc I would not recommend that she make a move. I don't know about pof but I think that women can even do this on dating sites by looking at a guy's profile and see if he messages her. For me personally I like to be chased and I find it attractive when a guy that I like is aggressive enough to pursue me.
DeleteWell, it all comes down to if you can get what you're demanding. If you only want guys to pursue then you have to limit yourself to that group. If you're finding enough good candidates are pursuing you then good. If not, then you have either accept that or change your approach.
DeleteI really don't see how saying hi to a guy and then seeing what he does from there makes him not the pursuer. Saying hi is not pursuing. It's simply in the category of showing that you're approachable and then letting him do it.
I date online. I don't consider sending a message to be a 'first move'. I consider it making myself known like introducing myself to someone at a party. That's not chasing as far as I'm concerned. You have to go after what you want online. I don't do this aggressively but I don't see the point of leaving it to fate. Some men won't see your profile, some don't log on regularly, and some men prefer getting a message to a wink. Personally I don't respond to winks because I think it's a lazy form of contact and shows the guy lacks balls (or enough interest in me) to initiate.
Delete"Now, beyond the initial contact, the guy should start to make most of the pursuing effort (at least enough) but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with women saying hi to a guy in real life or online and see if he picks up the ball from there."
DeleteThe difference is, an online dating site is specifically related to romantic intents. Saying hi at a gas station can be seen as simply friendly. There is nothing platonic in the purpose of a dating site.
I don't message guys first on dating sites anymore because it never worked out for me. Some men, that I messaged first, I might have dated for a month or two, but in the end their interest in me never rose above lukewarm. If a guy is truly interested in you, he WILL message you.
Then there are those guys who are really bad at showing you how much they really like you. If you deny yourself the "they made the first move" badge, you might never know if he is just hanging out until something better comes along.
I don't want a guy to date me just because he thinks, "I'm good enough" and he is flattered that I messaged him. We should really stop reversing gender roles because the other side doesn't know how to handle them well.
(Guys can't say no to sex from a woman who is throwing herself at him, even though he knows she is really saying "love me" and doesn't plan on giving that to her, and that he will end up hurting her. Girls can't handle rejection or the casual sex they try to be nonchalant about.)
A better approach in online dating is to view a man's profile. That let's him know that you exist and are potentially interested. If he finds you hot enough, he will message you.
The one exception is if you are extremely hot. Then you can message guys you want because you know he will find you attractive. The door is already opened for you, now you just have to win him with your personality.
YES do it! I have had some relationships from online dating, including the one i'm in now which is amazing. We are both relatively shy, quiet people who probably wouldn't have otherwise crossed paths, yet we are very, very compatible. I have met a few assholes who only wanted sex though, too.
DeleteI recommend POF.com and okcupid.com.
My advice:
-Make it a public place, JUST IN CASE they're not who they say they are (I've never had this problem, but you never know!)
-Don't talk too much online. Once you agree that you'd like to meet (maybe 2-3 messages max), set up a date and time, and go from there.
If you tell each other everything before the date, it will be awkward! This way it feels more like a real date between two people who just met.
-You don't have to tell your life story on a dating profile, but do mention pertinent things. I like that I can mention I'm a libertarian and an atheist who does not want children, which automatically weeded out potentially incompatible matches. That's not as easy to do with someone you meet in person.
-Be weary of those men who overly-compliment before they meet you. They are likely doing this with all the women they message, and it may also be a sign of someone who is desperate/looking for casual sex. On the same token, don't do it yourself, either.
Thanks!
DeleteWell, J, we'll just have to disagree. You have your experiences and I have mine. I'm not doubting that you dated some guys where you made the first move and it didn't work out but you don't know it wouldn't have worked out otherwise or whether you might be missing out on that one guy that it would work out with.
DeleteOthers can decide which advice and experience best applies to their situation.
As one man, I can say 100% that if a woman I find attractive and appealing writes me that I will be excited and pursue it further. I sincerely think a lot of other men feel the same way, based on the scarcity mentality that most men have to one degree or another and the amount of work most men have to put in to meeting girls.
The problem is that most girls only contact guys who are out of their league and then wonder why it doesn't work out. This happens to me all the time on pof. I get messages from girls that 99% of people would agree I'm out of their league. In the few cases where someone roughly in my league contacts me I am more than happy and write them back and take it from there.
@HanSolo
Delete"I can say 100% that if a woman I find attractive and appealing writes me that I will be excited and pursue it further."
And THAT is the important caveat. I dont know about you but I know for a fact that there are many men (dare I say most?)who will go along to get along just for sex. Men will date women they are not all that into just for steady sex given she isn't too unattractive to him.
"I sincerely think a lot of other men feel the same way, based on the scarcity mentality that most men have to one degree or another and the amount of work most men have to put in to meeting girls."
This only further's the point J (and myself) are making. When people view something as scarce they get 'latch-on" syndrome and go along just to have it, regardless of if there is true potential for a relationship. This isn't problematic in and of itself, but for a woman looking for a serious relationship leading to marriage this is dangerous territory. The man might date you for a while, it may even turn into an LTR, but he may run across someone he finds is more his "type" then drop you like an old, damaged shoe. And you (the woman ) will have no clue what went wrong.
I agree with your general point that women can do small amount to show she is interested. Saying hi/striking up a convo is fine, but I wouldn't do more than that.
Another thing, just because someone is in the same league as me doesn't necessarily mean they are my "type". So even if a woman is messaging a man who, like her, is a 7 it isn't necessarily a go...
Y, that's why women have to filter for how the man treats her. That's no different than if he had asked her out. I am completely baffled on how you and J think that just because you send an email saying hi or strike up a conversation in person that then that means he's just going along for the ride for sex. No matter who initiates contact, both men and women have to then evaluate the other for compatibility and how they're treating you.
DeleteAnd most men view sex and a quality woman who's interested in him as fairly scarce. And with the way some women act bitchy and the latest message out there from feminists about men are harassing women (and inappropriate harassing does exist) then a lot of good guys get the idea that women don't want to be bothered. The woman, by initiating contact or showing some interest, lets the man know that his approach is welcome and then it's up to him to do so and the dynamics can return to the man making most of the effort on suggesting dates and so on.
Women, as evidence by this blog, have a hard enough time filtering men who only want sex among those who ARE making the first move. MAking the first move as a woman WHILE filtering is only going to add to the confusion, IMO. Making a move isnt always wrong but the woman in question has to know what she is doing, and how to do it effectively, ie striking the right tone to say "hey Im interested, but Im not 'easy'". To be honest, if a woman is reading this blog, its doubtful that she can masterfully do this, and Im including myself in this category. Im not sure why this is baffling to you, lol, as Andrew himself as said the same thing.
DeleteAlthough I sympathize with what you said in the 2nd paragraph it isnt enough to convince me. Mainly because women look for men who are confident in themselves and it would be unnatural for some women to go out of there way to show interest to a man. Moreover, you said yourself that most times women doing the approach will do so with a man who is "above" her, ie more alpha. In that case the woman should just forget it because that type of man knows what he wants and he WILL let you know if he wants you...Also women can ie to themselves and rationalize making the first move because the man is "shy" or whatever when the reality is he was never interested in the first place. Again, this is just IME/IMO...yours is obviously different
Vivian (nice name btw!)
DeleteFrom personal experience OkCupid has a lot of great men. I have met 8-9s on there. You have to filter and it takes a while but they exist. The guy I am dating I would rate an 8 and the one before him a 9 (he was wealthy and had a great career in finance, living alone in a great neighborhood, super well traveled, aussie accent, handsome as hell) YES he was on OKC. Although he was mostly on there because it was the easiest way to get laid.
I dated him for 6 mo. I was able to keep his interest for that long but in the end I was too exhausted and insecure to date someone I consider out of my league. He was very confused when I told him I couldn't see him anymore. But you didn't ask me all that....
Ok Cupid will filter for you if you get on their "hot" list. I think all you have to do is be rated highly often enough and have people constantly click on your profile. Then it becomes much easier because other "hot list" people will see you and find you and vice versa. Be careful with the ones that are too good to be true. Most know they are valuable and are using OKC for easy lays. But some of them are open , like my aussie, to serious things.
I think it's a reliable way to find the high value men. The guy I'm dating works a lot and that's why he was on okc. His friends suggested he get on it.
have to agree with Y and J btw.
DeleteI don't like the idea of messaging first. Look at their profiles and they should come to you if they are attracted and they find you interesting
My point is that if you are not having enough good guys approaching you then it is worth considering doing a little yourself as one of many tools to improve your odds. Improving your looks, personality, approachability and getting in an environment with guys you like should be the most important ones employed. Also, getting realistic expectations is important.
DeleteaGirl is dating a guy she likes so doesn't need to say hi to guys. But for girls that aren't getting the attention they want, in addition to all those things they should be doing in the previous paragraph to improve themselves, saying hi in person or online can be one more tool to use.
Use this advice or don't but it's one guy's sincere opinion on being written on pof or spoken to in person.
Han, you might be the outlier, but in my experience, guys are floored when *any* girl messages them - ugly or not. Many guys have never been approached by a female, and to have it happen is something of a high.
DeleteSo much so, that you can get a date or two, sex, and maybe a mini-relationship out of it before the high ends. But once it does, the guy wakes up, and dumps you. If I want a mini-relationship, approaching guys works well. If I want something more permanent, I sit back and wait for him to approach me first.
It is all well and good to say we need to filter better, but that is why we are on this site, because we are bad at filtering. And, this *is* one of our filtering methods. It filters out the guys who are really interested vs those who are lukewarm.
And of course you like getting messaged by a hot chick. I get the impression that your league is at least a 7. But, getting messaged by a girl who is just in your league, especially when your league isn't that high, isn't all that thrilling.
I agree with HanSolo. I don't think sending someone a message will automatically attract a man who won't make an effort or expect the woman to take the lead. There are always ways to filter out men like that. I have asked enough men about this before and I think you can best describe their reaction as one of indifference. They won't be more attracted to you for sending a message but they won't be less attracted either, unless they have a weird complex.
DeleteBut just to say that I do understand what everyone is getting at. I have come across men who want to get easy sex or an easy relationship. I can generally tell by how they communicate with me and not necessarily whether they initiate contact or not. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't black and white. I absolutely agree with Andrew's advice overall. But I use my common sense and adapt it to different situations.
For example, while Andrew says "don't initiate contact", this is how I interpret it:
1. I will approach a man in certain situations if he is being flirtatious from a distance because in that case, the guy is taking some kind of initiative. Some men don't approach not due to lack of confidence. They don't approach because you're surrounded by other women, or because they don't want to be that guy who hits on women when they might not want to be hit on/they don't want to come across as a jerk.
2. I am uncomfortable with being the person who buys the drinks on a first meeting (is that sexist?). I feel like if I buy a man a drink, I'm acting like one of his buddies.
3. I will never ask a guy out online because I consider it a waste of my time. If he asks me out, and I say 'yes' then I expect him to then start trying to make plans with me. If he doesn't, I cut contact because I think that is far too meek.
4. Sometimes online the guy won't reply for a few weeks/months because he's abroad or has a lot going on - or he won't reply because he doesn't date too many women at once. If he gets in touch later, I don't assume I'm second best.
5. Quality is better than quantity. But sometimes it's about networking and making yourself known to as wide a circle of people as possible. So I consider online dating like accumulating a 'dating network' or going to some speed-dating event where you talk to a lot of people.
I think that women fall prey to this more than men do. Men are the ones approaching and getting rejected more often. They have a keener sense of who they can get. Plus men aren't getting casual with out-of-their-league girls (exceptions do happen) nearly as much as women are so they don't have that confusing them. Plus there are often men who will have a 3-month relationship with a woman 1 point lower than him just to be having sex--he knows it and she's trying to win him over and think she has a shot.
ReplyDeleteAnother factor is that women's value has collectively risen relative to men's. This is due to the fact that the provider/protector role of a man has decreased in parts of the world where women can earn a lot (like in Europe, Japan, S.K. and N America) and where it's relatively safe. That historical value of men has diminished and don't add as much value to the man as they did 100 or 10000 years ago. This frees up women to look for someone higher in earning, charisma or genes than what she could get if everyone were paired off with someone of their same percentile ranking of overall "quality" and appeal.
"men who will have a 3-month relationship with a woman 1 point lower than him just to be having sex" -by relationship do you mean dating or official girlfriend?
DeleteIt could be either. Some men will accept to have a temporary girlfriend and say they want to see where it's going. Of course, both men and women will likely view the gf/bf stage as an audition to see if they want to stay together and get married while others (men and women) will just see it as something for now.
DeleteI fell victim to the 'something for now' approach but I know for a fact that the guy is not more attractive than me (and I promise that this is not arrogance on my part). We are at least on the same level of attractiveness. I don't think that men always go below their league to do this. Some men want convenient sex on tap and won't particularly invest. The guy I mentioned was a complete asshole who thought he was God's gift to women and at the time I was too inexperienced to realise that.
DeleteOf course, the guy who doesn't want long-term commitment will go as high as he can get. It's up to women to do better filtering. Glad you learned from that experience.
DeleteSo about 3 months...hmmm...what is your rationale behind this amount of time? I've been with my guy officially for one month and i'm still feeling out the relationship. He knows I want something serious though I have not mentioned the word marriage but I've explained that my feelings are involved. Dating is so complicated! I wish things were simpler.
DeleteI didn't mean just 3 months. It could be 2 or 5, until he grows tired or wants to find someone more ideal. Just something to beware of.
DeleteI think if you are right at the threshold of attractiveness for the guy, though, that it may take him some time to decide to go all in on you and feel like he doesn't want to "upgrade" (not saying he can upgrade). So, I have some friends that kind of kept dating guys that weren't just outright thrilled with them right away but gradually wore them down and the guys married the girls. I think the guys warmed up more over time too but I don't know if the guys are crazy for them.
DeleteSo, it is a risky strategy to try and wear down the guy who's not excited for you (either because he doesn't want commitment or he is or feels he could maybe do better).
Thanks for your honesty... it is super brutal but we ladies need to hear it so that we could constantly be working on our appearance. I seriously hadn't put any effort in my appearance until I started reading your blog. So HanSolo=Andrew?! I just figured that out...I'm the girl that emailed you with the emails my guy and I exchanged. I don't know if you remember...
DeleteI'm not Andrew. I just like this blog and love discussing relationships and attraction with both men and women. I also comment a lot at hookingupsmart.
DeleteI think Andrew has a lot of good advice for women and I agree with most of what he says though I have a different opinion on a few things. But having a few different good and sincere opinions is good so you get the range of what men think.
I think that there is a lot of hope for women actually. But they need to put their ego aside and accept the brutal, honest truth while still loving themselves and not getting depressed. It can be hard to realize that certain aspects of oneself (man or woman) are holding one back. But for most people, some improvement can be made and as long as one doesn't have unrealistic expectations they'll be able to find a decent-to-great partner, especially after improving themselves.
DeleteHan, truth, but for women, it is very hard to accept that. We just aren't wired to take bad news and just move on as well as guys. It's hard for us to accept and then move on from the truth that 70% of our value to 50% of the human race (males) is wrap up solely in our appearance.
DeleteAnd while I do agree with Andrew that we have a lot of control over our appearance, I think he is way more generous with how much control he estimates we have. Maybe a better estimate would be on a sliding - scale. The older we get the less control we have. (At least the older I get, the more money I have to spend on cosmetic procedures!)
I do think we have a good degree of control up to a certain point, because men don't tend to judge our appearance as harshly as other women (i.e. our competition) do. I just don't think men observe every flaw. So I improve my looks with the notion that I'm making myself more attractive as a package. I don't focus on the finest details. I'd like to date a down-to-earth man who doesn't expect me to put high heels on for a hiking trip. But I feel bloody amazing when I'm fully done up and really making an effort. I think it's worth it for the boost in confidence more than anything else.
DeleteGreat post Andrew! But I find it really hard to 'rate' men, when you say a guy is a five or eight I have no idea what to picture! The guys I find cute all look pretty different.
ReplyDeleteSeth Rogen is an average looking guy I think, would he be like a 5-ish?
http://us.cdn002.fansshare.com/photos/sethrogen/seth-rogen-1285628049.jpg
Rating guys' looks is hard for me (I can basically tell the difference btw ugly, average and hot). Rating sexual market value or marriage market value is trickier.
DeleteOne way to look at it is to rate his sexual market value in terms of the top 95th percentile of girls he does or could get for casual (allowing for a few out-of-his league flukes and what not). I wouldn't take it at the 50th percentile because guys usually go down for casual. I think looking at what kind of gf's he gets will be a better indicator of his marriage value because he's less likely to just settle for some woman too far below his value.
I think a helpful way to think about it is in terms of percentile. A 5.5 is right in the middle of 1-10 scale (not allowing 0) and then one standard deviation (or some multiple of one) would take you up to a 7 or something. IMO, for women's beauty, something like 10 or 12% would be an 8 or higher, maybe 3% or higher a 9, and 0.1% would be a 9.7 or higher and 0.0001% would be a perfect 10.
It's all just rough guess work so not too much should be placed on it--rather, it's just an approximate and helpful way to talk about things.
Yes Seth Rogen is a 5 for me (female). Far from ugly.....but far from hott too... Just a typical looking man, nothing wrong with that IMO.
DeleteI don't think female's HB scale works the same way guy's HB scale does. For men, they rate solely on looks (which is why I noticed the split between SMV and MMV - I don't think women need to make that split). Women rate based on things outside of just looks. The reason is, for the majority (not all) of women, we are capable of finding a man more (or less) attractive based on outside factors.
DeleteOh, he has a college degree? I suddenly find him .5 points more attractive. He makes $100K a year, bam, I don't know why but he just went from a 6 to a 7. He doesn't want kids? Oops, he is back down to a 6.
And that is why I think Daphne might have a hard time picturing what a 5, 6, 7, or 8 male might look like. Because, the truth is, you could take the same guy, but give him different personality and career attributes to make him a 5, a 6, a 7, and an 8.
I agree that women factor in a lot more variables than men do. However, once a man is looking for marriage, a man factors more than looks into the woman's MMV, though meeting his looks threshold is important since he's basically giving up all other women for you, assuming he intends on being faithful (and it's not so easy to just go around cheating unless the guy is really appealing to women anyway). We're in agreement.
Deletelooks-wise Seth is a 5. But he is also famous (social status), very funny (to some)
DeleteSo that makes him a 7.
His wife is a 7 I think.
I think aGirl and HanSolo are right in that looking at a guys girlfriend/wife is a good way to tell his perceived value.
Delete@ HanSolo Yes, 100% true, but a man won't even start looking at your MMV until you are in the door. And to get in the door you have to have a good enough SMV. Therefore, which is more important?
DeleteI have a very high MMV but a very low SMV. Surprise surprise, I'm still single. Having a 10 in MMV counts for nothing if your SMV is low.
Yes, being above the looks threshold (that might be low for some guys, high for others) is the most important thing 99% of the time because it's what's noticed the soonest.
DeleteThis is a reasonable analysis, with a nice positive spin on what is quite an ugly problem for women.
ReplyDeleteTHe ugliness is inherent in this idea:
"I know I am a catch. I have so much love to give a man. Why can't men see that??"
To any women who think this way, know this: Men don't concern themselves with a woman's capacity to love. They caoncern themselves with a woman's looks, her body shape and, to a lesser extent, her availability.
Girls, expecting a man to see you as you see yourself, or as your friends see you is futile. If he knows you as a friend to begin with, he may appreciate your capacity to love but he's not going to want you any more because of this.
Unless a man has particularly unloving experiences of his mother, he'll expect all women to have the capacity to love. Why would he want you for what he expects to find in all women?
Most men assume love but crave respect. With women it's usually the other way around. Respect is therefore the key to getting the man you want - respect of both him and what he needs in a woman. To respect a man is not to pander to him but to be aware that he's not going to want you for the things you value in yourself. He'll probably not care at all about your career, your salary, your achievements "as a woman", your graduate degree, your feelings about all and sundry, or how your friends see you. He probably WILL care about your looks, your behaviour, your femininity, your respect for his personhood, and your value to him as a prospective partner. Obviously, if you possess none of these things, then you need to get them or let him be.
It would also be wise to learn how to recognise which form of love he feels for you, and you for him, so you can avoid lengthy misunderstandings. The four different kinds of love are agape, eros, philio and storge.
For those that don't know, agape is unconditional love, which is the kind of love that requires a personal and often sarifical choice - e.g. love for God, a nurses love for patients, a teachers love for students etc.
Eros is passionate love, which is activated by our desire for sensual things such as sexual pleasure.
Philio is the love we feel for those in whom we have a special interest, such as friends, trusted colleagues and extended family.
Storge is the natural love that occurs between parents and children, siblings, or a husband and wife in a good marriage.
Most socialised people are aware of the different forms of love but I doubt that very many of us can tell which is at play in any given interaction with someone. For example, how do we know someone isn't interested in us out of pity, or sympathy? How can we tell if someone just needs a friend instead of a partner? Is our desire for a relationship just to legitimise our lust? How can we protect other people when we venture into their live with our imperfections and incomplete understanding of love?
We need to know which sort of love we ourselves are expecting, and whether it's reasonable or healthy or wise to expect another person to deliver that form of love to us.
Our host is probably right to call this an over-rating problem but I think it goes much deeper than that. To put it bluntly, feminism has caused women to lose their respect for men. Without respect, men can't and won't love women. Without reapect, the men women want are looking elsewhere, and the men that remain are either panderers, supplicants or cads. One of the many, many consequences of this is that it's now a buyers market for men.
In other words, girls, you are no longer the prize. The sooner you swallow this bitter pill, the easier it will be to find the man you need and get on with your life.
"In other words, girls, you are no longer the prize. The sooner you swallow this bitter pill, the easier it will be to find the man you need and get on with your life."
DeleteTo add to your comment, I don't believe it is only women who talk about the 'prize'. There are plenty of white knight jerk guys who claim to be "nice" and put women on a pedestal, which is actually quite dehumanising and disrespectful. These men feed the egos of the most undesirable women, as well as devaluing women as a gender because they see sex and love as an exchange or as something which they are owed.
Jacob-You raise some good points, however, I would have to disagree on the supposed irrelevance or lack of importance to men in regards to women's careers, degree and money. I've been approached by guys who initially seemed attracted to me only to have them snub me and pass judgement when they deemed my amount of education and career unworthy. How do you explain this? Are you going to say they were secretly just not that attracted to me and using that as an excuse to back off? Because somehow, I doubt that was the case.
DeleteWhat was your level of education and earnings compared to his. I could see it mattering if he was way higher than yours but as long as a woman isn't too far away it shouldn't matter.
DeleteSee my comment on how especially some upper-middle-class guys will put more importance on the woman's career lately because he wants to be in a marriage with lots of money. A lot of these guys that get the $100k+ jobs are quite ambitious (but only about 5% of the population makes above that I think, could be wrong on the exact %) and so they see the wife's earnings as contributing to those ambitious goals.
I'm not sure how much weight middle-class or lower guys put on it. I think they want a woman to be doing something reasonable like being a school teacher or nurse or something in line or somewhat lower than what they do but don't care as much.
It really depends on the guy's priorities. No one can have exactly everything they MIGHT want. If he values looks he'll likely have to accept a trade-off in earnings or something and vice versa.
I was still in college at the time and working as an administrative assistant when I was approached by a school teacher 7 years my senior and about 2-3 points lower than me on the looks scale. He was about a 4 or 5, tall, but fleshy and had a pot belly that almost made him look pregnant. But having heard that crap about a how woman should choose an older, less attractive man than herself because he'll treat her better and appreciate her more, I actually believed it and decided to give it a try. However, little did I know how WRONG that theory would turn out, at least in my case. Here was a guy who was several years older and much less attractive than I, nothing really exceptional about him, but still judging me for apparently not being good enough. Seriously, it's NOT just women who are delusional.
DeleteSorry that worked out that way for you. But the theory isn't to pick ANY man that's older and less attractive! lol Of all the older and less-attractive men that would go for you (and believe me, there are many!) and you went for him? Come on! Not trying to be a jerk but women need to stop picking the assholes. There are tons of good guys around. Give them a chance and stop going for the a-holes, especially if you don't even think they're good enough for you.
DeleteHS-Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have went for him. But at the time, I had no dating experience and figured that since I was in my mid twenties (in my late 20s now) I wasn't getting any younger and that it was time I experienced it. It wasn't entirely negative, but if I could go back, I don't think I would do it again. I only went on 3 dates with him and we didn't even kiss each other, (though he wanted to) but looking back, he was not even worthy those few hours with me per date. Did I also how mention his hygiene wasn't up to par, that he showed up in the same ratty outfit twice, that he never even offered to pay for the third (and last) coffee date we went, which he was also late for. That he checked text messages while we were our second date, that he talked about ex-girlfriends, that he never called, only texted and sometimes took days or more to get back to me, that he was touchy feelly (grabbing my hip, knee, thigh, putting his arm around waist) when I didn't want him to be and that he was just plain icky? Sorry to be blabbing on like this, I guess I just needed to vent a little.
DeleteDid you read Fascinating Womanhood? What you were saying concerning respect reminded me immediately of FW.
DeleteI have a history of dating abusive assholes. In my own defence, their true qualities didn't come through early on and I was naive and impressionable. I got into that situation not thinking that those guys weren't good enough for me. I just didn't think I was good enough so I assumed that was all I could get. I looked at some good guys with suspicion because I didn't understand why they were interested in me. Some people do pick assholes and it's mainly due to low self-esteem. Plus self-pity is not attractive to anyone who is healthy.
DeleteReally it is never too late to change your dating patterns. All you need is enough self-awareness to change and to accept some responsibility for your woes. I am as much responsible for becoming a victim as the men were because of the choices I made. I could have left them any day but I was a doormat and I stayed, thinking it would get better. Boy have I learnt from that! This blog pretty much reinforces that point for me, of taking responsibility for your own happiness.
Andrew- If I remember correctly, I think that in one of your previous posts, you advised women to not play below their league. It makes sense, but would you mind elaborating more on the reasons why you advise this?
ReplyDeleteNo one should play below their league. If you play below your league you are selling yourself short and setting yourself up for eventual discontent.
DeleteBut keep in mind that for women and men your "league" is defined by looks and personality (though these count in different proportions for men and women).
Anon 6.36: The 'league' thing usually solves itself. Not only do men and women care about looks and personality in different proportions - we tend to value skills/characteristics we are lacking in ourselves.
DeleteSo you obviously shouldn't date a loser, but if you feel like the man you're dating always has the "upper hand", something is off. In every successful relationship, both parties feel as though they're dating someone "out of their league".
I do admit to doing something very foolish and dating a guy I didn't find very attractive because we had what seemed to be compatible personalities. I thought I would eventually develop the hots for him but I never did. And I learnt to ignore people who told me I'm shallow for not dating someone I don't find attractive. We women get this all the time. We get told we're shallow for thinking about aesthetics. Men don't get loaded with this cultural guilt complex.
DeletePersonality is hugely important. I don't think an unattractive personality will be overlooked for a pretty face - at least not in my experience. I had clinical depression and it's only now after recovery that I can see how it would turn off men. Certain problems with personality are a 'no deal' in terms of attracting a good man. Other personality variants count differently for different people, as you said.
I can't remember what this blog said about attractiveness but even though I was better looking in certain ways when I was 18, I don't think I'm past my prime now at 23. It's only now that I've built up the ability to make the most of my appearance, make-up, making really effort with my body and growing in confidence. I actually feel the most attractive I ever have, even though I'm 20lbs heavier than when I was 18, although I am working on losing it. Awesome! Well this particular post is building some momentum in me. :)
@ lucy
Delete"We women get this all the time. We get told we're shallow for thinking about aesthetics. Men don't get loaded with this cultural guilt complex."
Agreed. And course you're not past you're prime, you're still in it if you're only 23! Enjoy every minute and make the most out of it!
Self-improvement is so important. In order to do that you have to have some degree of self-awareness. Many people don't. They see their dating outcomes as something that happens to them and not something that is related to what they're doing. I suppose the "nice guy" is the male embodiment of that entitlement complex. Is the example you gave the female equivalent?
ReplyDeleteMaybe men are less likely to misread their attractiveness because they are less likely to get into sexual interactions with women who are above their league. And men don't routinely get compliments on their appearance from their friends (as women often do). They get that validation through the attractiveness of the women they can get into bed.
What I do notice is the fact that some men overrate their personality. So there are less attractive men thinking that they automatically have a great personality when that's not the case (there are no doubt women like that too). A great personality is a lot harder to find than good looks. There aren't many truly independent men around - men who don't toe the line of peer pressure or compete in power games with the rest of their gender.
It's as if I'm unavailable to men currently, because I'm too focused on self-actualisation to think about dating. Assertive action is better than self-pity. Do men prefer women who are confident-bordering-on-arrogant to women who may be self-deprecating? Is it more of a balance between the two extremes? It's not my job to make a man self-aware so if he hasn't reached that stage, then I can't take that on. That's why I'm having time off now. I know I'd be passed over (maybe by a 'dream match') because I'm not living my potential.
No, men don't like women who are confident bordering on arrogant. They like women who are physically attractive, like to have sex, have pleasant personalities (some sassiness is good but arrogance, no), aren't stupid or vapid, probably roughly in that order.
DeleteThanks. I agree. I was just clarifying because I've heard some men say they like arrogant women, or if given a choice, they'd pick an arrogant one over an insecure one any day.
DeleteI don't really get this in or out of your league thing as it relates to looks. I think this post is interesting only in that it has one point: A lot of us hold out for what we think we can get based on our potential (not just in looks), even if we haven't lived up to it entirely yet. However, the way that men and women calculate the desirability of the other is vastly different, which is telling even from our society. Women do not care as much about a man's looks, as they do about a man's overall package, including how successful they are. So this is just silly to exclude such a relevant factor. Men on the other hand do rate women based on attractiveness mostly, but I do know a lot of men who attracted to successful, and smart women.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the emphasis on looks on this blog is nauseating. As a very attractive female, from my own experience, looks just aren't the end all be all. In fact, my most unattractive friends are the ones who are always in relationships! Whatever number on the scale a woman falls on, most likely she can get a boyfriend who falls around 2 points within her number or so, or whatever. So making yourself more attractive is okay, but it's not the all-encompassing answer. Plus, the more attractive a woman is, she's going to attract men who are much more superficial! Because of my level of attractiveness, I am constantly pursued by men who value looks in excess. These men are annoying to filter through. If you are not that attractive as a woman, you are doing yourself a favor by not attracting these superficial men. These men get so caught up in beauty, and looks, and what it means to their own identity, and self-entitlement that they really lose grasp of what a woman can be beyond that. They lose sight of traits in a woman that are important, other than looks. Also, most women who are very attractive, can be vapid and bitchy, so for the most part, this is what these men are going to get, even further not realizing all the amazing qualities a woman can have beyond looks.
What I'm trying to say is looks are just not that important! I have amazing facial features, perfect symmetry, a beautiful skinny body--I am more attractive than a lot of people. And it doesn't mean squat. What you're going to give to a relationship, the willingness to invest in a relationship, choosing the right partners, good relationship skills--these are the things that matter! And I get hit on by great men, but if I don't feel a connection it's all moot as well, no matter how high he is on a scale of desirability.
Amanda, you are right. Women's overall "value" for a fling or relationship or marriage is more based on her looks than it is for man. I'm not sure if Andrew was meaning looks throughout the post because he just gives numbers (however, in the graphic he combines looks and appearance).
DeleteYour unattractive friends are in relationships. Would you trade places with them and have their bf's as your bf? If not, then it suggests that they are more in line with the overall value of your friends and maybe they aren't that picky (I'm not saying you are).
Obviously men who value looks go after women who have looks. And most of the top men have lots of options so they can be picky. Since pretty women would have paired off with the top men back in the days where everyone nearly got paired off but today some of those top men are out being players and not available to pair off with the women of their level then it can be difficult for the female 9's and 10's. They may have to accept a man that's 0.5 or 1 points lower (whatever that means).
Most of the rest of men don't have such options so they go for the women at their level (either happily or after realizing they can't do any better).
According to you you're beautiful (I won't argue that though I haven't seen you but let's just take it as true). What kind of man are you looking for in terms of success, charisma, looks, character and so forth? Also, what age range? You say you get hit on by great men and also by guys that are just after you for your looks (I'm sure that's true of some though others will appreciate you for more than your looks as well). If you have so many guys after you then I'm curious why it's hard to find at least 1 of them that you have a connection with (assuming you don't have 1 such guy right now and I'm not attacking you, just really curious).
I'm not saying this is you but something to consider. I have some beautiful female cousins and friends and they have really big lists of what they want in a man. And because of that they've remained single into their 30's.
Anyway, I'm just curious. Feel free to respond or not. I'm not trying to be combative but understand why a beautiful girl is having trouble finding a good man. I love discussing these things so perhaps I can offer some insight or be a sounding board. Cheers.
I am not the poster above. I totally agree with the poster above though. I can respond, as an attractive woman in mid-20s. Personally, I have had trouble finding love because I started the game late. This is because I was focused on education in college, and I saw my good-looking friends ruined by superficial relationships with college players. Back then, the good-looking guys were all looking for flings or they would date for constant sex from a 10. However, they would eventually break up with her because they needed to marry someone that is an 8/9 that was less slutty, different culture, educational level, religion, etc.
DeleteI chose to work on my intellect and character, letting the ball drop in appearance. Like Andrew said, I knew that I could be a 9/10 but dressed and acted like a 6. I wasn't willing to date the 6s that approached me. Anything higher never looked my way at the time.
Now, as I have grown up, I have learned to balance life better. I lost weight and dress sexy/stylish. I am spending a lot of time on myself to live up to my potential. Granted I am not bragging. I may be a 9/10 to some and a 6 to others. I find that I have an easier time getting the men that I want to date. I am not yet ready for marriage, but I would like to date someone that considers it within 2-3 yrs. The only problem is that I dated scale 8-9 guys 1 yr older than me. I am not into dating 10 males, because I find them full of themselves. Being a 6 in college, I saw the ugly side of extremely superficial 10 men.
These men that are 1 yr older than me, mid-20s are still 'finding themselves'. With my little dating experience and their inability to marry soon, I am in a dead end relationship. Also, when I date around, I have a hard time deciphering what the men like me for. When men start dating you with very sexual advances, it is difficult to find someone to marry long term. If you do, he has a tendency to push you to be his 'arm candy', which isn't appealing either. I actually dated a really brilliant guy that was an 8, who wanted me to follow his career and lower my ambitions. He wasn't ready to marry me either at 24. He was bitter that I didn't just follow him and see where it goes. He traded me in for a younger 7 that idolized him, kept tabs on me for the past 3 yrs.
I guess that I can date the stable 6/7s in their mid 20s or 8/9s in their 30s. It takes 8-10 men longer to settle down. That is a dilemma. I will probably go for the 8s in their early 30s. I am embarrassed to say that I a just started reading this blog. I have been dating a 8/9 26 yr old male that I have no intentions of marrying. Not very bright of me, I know. I need to end it and get serious. I have been intimidated by scale 7, 29-33 yr old men wanting to date me seriously. But I am not willing to wait on a man my age to grow up, waste my most eligible years on someone finding himself.
I haven't been putting myself out there much yet. Hopefully, I can find a 8/9 early 30 male soon. Once you get a 10 your age, its difficult to go for a 7 that is 7 yrs your senior.
Let me add to my previous post and say that I am not superficial. I guess that I have been working improving all areas of myself. And I feel underwhelmed by those that don't care to try. I would like to date a guy that works on their appearance, otherwise I won't have motivation to maximize mine. Or works on their interests, so that we can be inspired together.
DeleteNo offense, but the hardships a woman has to deal with because she is pretty is NOTHING compared to the hardships a woman has to deal with because she is ugly. If you are pretty, and have a problem finding a man, the you know the problem isn't your appearance. You know it is your personality so you can zoom in and fix it.
DeleteAs an ugly woman having problems finding a man, you don't know if the bigger problem is your looks, your personality, or both. Either way, you have twice as much crap to deal with to fix the problem.
Try living a day as an ugly female then come back and talk to me. (That was fastidious, of course, because you can't just trade your pretty away for a day =)). I'm just saying, be thankful for what you have, live, learn, grow, and always improve yourself both inside and outside. If you always do that, your chances improve that you will find love someday).
J, I agree that once a woman has (nearly) maxed out her looks that working on her personality, approachability and showing interest in decent guys (not a-holes) is the biggest thing she should do. Of course, in reality, a woman should work on appearance (either improving it or keeping it up) and personality/approachability concurrently.
DeleteBut for pretty girls, working on personality and approachability and showing interest in good guys and knowing how and who to filter (but don't filter out the good guys!) is the most important thing.
@anonymous at 1:19 AM
DeleteI am just curious what constitutes a 7 or 8/9 in your mind? Are we rating looks alone for guys?
I usually rate on a mixture of funny/personality + intelligence + looks + social status + success + game/confidence with women/preselection
Men have so much they can use to make up for average or even ugly looks.
In general I don't care about looks, I only care that he works out and is at least 5'10.
You might find that you'd prefer a 7 in his 30's to an 8 in his 20s. I know I'd rate a 30yrold 6 in looks an 8 if he was super intelligent and very funny or was the life of the party and had a great career.
or some mixture of those things. I would take that guy over a guy was a 10 in looks alone.
How do you rate his looks? I am curious how women rate guys, I find that my friends rate on looks alone which is really confusing to me.
At J, I really don't believe that a woman can be 'ugly' beyond reproach. I have barely ever met women that are below 5 and worked on themselves. To the contrary, now that I spend more time on my looks, I can see just how hard some women try to optimize their value. All women know the make up that doesn't look like you are wearing any look.
DeleteWhen men say that they like how a woman looks without make up and in their t-shirt, it is bogus. This is the same women that spends countless hours researching beauty products, styling her hair, etc. There are entire websites for hair, nails, skin, and body toning alone. I have often seen guys call a women a 10 that is a 4 without all the extra amenities.
It is confidence and motivation that differentiates the 4s from the 7s. Granted, you cannot be an 8-10 without the genetics. But I guarantee that a 7 can do well with getting men to date.
Honestly, I think men have it harder in raising their looks. There just isn't much you can do to hide it all as a man. Fortunately, men can compensate for looks in other ways.
And even then, the 7 can bring her body to the level of a 10 with determination. Well, maybe a ten is an over-exaggeration. But you can definitely get your body to at least a 6 with exercise and healthy eating. And this is the age of plastic surgery and a million diet options.
I think that people that think they have more problems than the 'pretty girl' haven't given themselves enough tough love. And not to equate any girl here to an actress or model, but clearly your statement doesn't hold water. Beauty is a burden, one that most everyone wants to have, but doesn't make it any less of one. This is true of everything else that is highly valued. The more you have, the more you are unwilling to compromise your values.
I am totally not speaking from a high horse. But I have seen miraculous improvements in appearance to know that being 'ugly' is not very likely for a woman. That is what Andrew is saying in his blog. If you are a 3-4, you can become a 7 just from superficial things.
It's like when my date was waiting for me to get dressed for a formal and I came out in 4 minutes. He was like 'wowsa, you look like that and it took you less time then me'. What he didn't realize is that I had spent the past 4 months in a high-intensity cardio class 3 times a week, treated my skin like a little baby, took the equivalent of make up classes, got a new wardrobe. Most of my friends with near perfect bodies count calories for everything that they put in their mouth. You don't have to go this extreme to surpass the 'ugly' face and body though.
At HanSolo,I totally agree with you. I think that is a factor for all girls though. Or maybe it is because I am relatively young with little experience. I have friends that work on their looks and those that don't. And I have friends from both groups that are in unsatisfying relationships. They always seem to choose the wrong guy. And I am really relieved when the a-hole dumps them, because I am an optimist. And I believe that the next one will be better, only to find them dating the same wolf in a different cloak.
DeleteFor this reason, I really believe that you are responsible for your own romantic happiness. Why is it that some decent girls are always in amazing relationships with men that treat them right? And why are some gorgeous girls perpetually single? And let's factor out the bitches and broken personalities for this. The hardest thing for any women is knowing who to chose. Choice will either give you love or make you bitter. I don't believe that love finds us. We must actively seek it out.
At aGirl, I am assuming that a fairly attractive women will not date men that are below average. I take average to be a 5. (Let's assume that I am using the appearance scale same as men use it, based solely on looks.) And then I have never met a well-rounded 10 that wants to marry in 20s or early 30s. I have met a lot of 10s with undesirable personalities. I think this is because male 10s don't work on it as much as women 10s. This is because women can become 10s from all the ways-we-have-to-hide-our ugliness. Sorry, don't know a better way to phrase it.
DeleteSo,an attractive women will date a man in the looks department of a 6 at minimum to a 9 at maximum. And I realize that this is being superficial. But the personality is separate from the looks. A hot female will not date a average 5 man irregardless the additional qualities. She at least wants someone marginally above average.
And I agree with you, on the selection. Though I think that you are throwing around 30s as just a number. When I was 22 and approached by a 30 year old perfect 8, I was too intimidated to partner up with him. Here, I am barely got my legal drinking age and some guy wants me to settle down and follow him (i.e. marry him at let him take care of me). This might also stem from the fact that I hadn't gotten enough of an opportunity to date at the time. So, it was like telling me to marry the first cereal box off the shelf.
Now, I would date a 7 30 yr old over a 10 25 yr old. But a 6 is really pushing it. He will find my lifestyle and beauty regimen superficial anyways. But I cut the age limit at 35. And unfortunately that age gap 25-35 yr old males on scale 7-9 are the most sought after. And I am not eliminating the personality and intelligence factor, that is a given for all women.
A 26 yr old 8 will be hard to convince him to marry you now. He will want to finish his career ladder and 'see where it goes'. That doesn't work for me, because if it doesn't work out, I will be screwed. And the 7 yr old perfect 30 yr old is hard to find. I'd take him now. And the 32-35 yr old perfect 8 probably has commitment issues. Why else would he still be single at 35?
To add at HanSolo, there are entire books written on who women should filter out. Actually, I am really interested on what Andrew thinks of this from a male's perspective. Let's assume an attractive, vibrant personality female on a scale of 7-9...who does she need to filter?
Deleteps I think everyone here is working on their personality. Let'e eliminate that factor. Let's assume a decent one that has minor flaws and working on it. Let's assume a girl that is a decent flirt as well.
@ anon Feb 24, 1:32PM
Delete"But a 6 is really pushing it. He will find my lifestyle and beauty regimen superficial anyways."
Agreed. Seems like a lot of people call very attractive women shallow if they won't date average guys,but from what I've observed, there sometimes tends to be issues with insecurity on the part of the man if the woman he's dating is significantly more attractive than him. Whereas a man who is of similar attractiveness often seems more likely to appreciate it and able to handle it.
@ Anonymous @ 1:03 PM
DeleteOh, I don't want to diminish, in any way, the amount of time, effort, and money that goes into a pretty girl staying pretty. But, sadly, your reality isn't the reality at all. Not every girl can't work herself into a 7 range.
I promise you, I count every calories, limit it to 1200 daily, spend tons of money on beauty care and wardrobe, nails, hair, heals, exercise at least 1 hour daily, etc etc and I'm still only a 5 tops. (And even that I think is pushing it).
The most important thing for female beauty is to have a good base/core to springboard off of. When you have a rotten foundation, there is only so much you can do to improve it.
As a woman, if I could only choose one quality to have, it would be beauty, because with beauty you can control the world. Beautiful women are burdened with their beauty like trust fund babies are burdened with their money. If only we all could have such problems.
At Anonymous at 1:32 PM
DeleteI agree with that rule. I wouldn't date someone under 6 (in looks), but most of my friends say I'm not so picky :(
I'm 22 now, I'm curious... do you think you made the right choice? As far as getting more dating experience instead of settling down. I'm worried that if I choose someone now, I'll always wonder if I could have found someone much better. Or that I gave something up, whether it be time with friends or something else.
I worry that the more men I date, the pickier I'll become. Which is a good thing because I'll know what kind of man I should marry. I've dated 3-5 really great guys this past year. I didn't want to commit to anyone for the same reason you stated. When I compare them to my recent ex I wonder why I ever considered marrying him.
I think you are aiming at just the right age range. I heard somewhere that 34 is marriage o'clock for men. I wonder if that has something to do with their sperm. I read that the quality of their sperm changes after 35, it becomes abnormal. Best to be skeptical of single 35+ men.
aGirl, the effect on female fertility is much higher than male fertility in late 30's and early 40's. What do you mean by the sperm becomes abnormal? Do you mean a slight change? A big percentage change in going from 0.1% to 0.2% chance of a birth defect?
DeleteHere's one study
https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2006/NR-06-06-01.html
that says that, "They found a strong correlation between age and sperm DNA fragmentation, with genetic mutations associated with dwarfism gradually increasing by about two per cent for every year of age."
However, the rate is very low, "occurring in about one in every 25,000 births" so a 1/25,000 average with a rise of 2% per year is nothing to worry about.
My dad was 41 when I was conceived and I am 6' tall, have a high IQ, am athletic and pretty good looking. I think your worries about sperm from 35+ y/o males is vastly overblown. Maybe if he was over 50 you could start to worry but even then the odds are low.
aGirl
DeleteAnyway, as to your strategy, I would say be picky for the next year or so and really focus on figuring out what you want and then each year after be less picky. You have a lot of guys after you now so you can be picky for a little while but don't think that will last forever.
I think you should first decide how many kids you might want (kind of the upper limit) and decide when you would want to have the last one and how many years between, realizing that probability of getting pregnant in one year of trying does drop off after around 30 for women (from 36-40 it's about a 50% chance during one year of trying).
See this link for several different graphs, including showing the odds of a healthy child (I think the probability of the child being healthy has a much greater dependence on the age of the mother than of the fater):
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/probability-of-pregancy-by-age/#.USvDD6X9du4
So, for a woman that wants 3 kids, and wants them 2 years apart but it turns out she can get 1 two years apart and the 3rd one 3 years apart and wants the last one by 35 then she would have her first kid at 30. Say she wants 3 years marriage before 1st child then that means marriage at 27.
You can put in your own numbers but let's say that 27 works for you as the latest age you want to get married at and maybe 25 is your ideal age then I think you should basically be picky during the next year and only marry a guy that is just awesome (you'll likely not find anyone better). Next year, 23, still be picky but less so, and then by 24 just be appropriately picky (not too much, not too little). Remember that you will likely want or need 1-2 years of dating the man you end up marrying or cohabiting or whatever before you do get married so add that into your calculation.
aGirl, also realize you're likely at your peak looks right now (though it's possible you could improve them a bit if you really worked on it, it sounds like you're attractive and not fat, I don't remember). You probably won't decline much in looks over the next 3-4 years (or even more if you have a much-younger than your age look).
DeleteAnyway, my point is that you're likely at your peak right now and during the next 3-4 years so best to find someone to marry soon. I knew someone who was very pretty in her early 20's and had tons of great guys after her but for whatever reason she didn't marry anyone and in her late 20's her looks started to go down a bit and now in her early 30's even more (she's still attractive but whereas she was an 8.5 in her early 20's she's now more of a 7). I'm not saying she's typical of how looks change but probably more typical than the 8.5 who is still an 8.5 by early 30's. I suspect that a typical 8.5 would become a 7.5 to 8 by early 30's and then a 7-7.5 by mid 30's, with some exceptions that stay hot longer or decline sooner.
I'm not THAT worried about 35+ sperm and am fully aware that female related complications are more prevalent or at least we more about that than about male fertility. I mean the last guy I dated was 39, I'm pretty open.
DeleteI doubt I'll get to 30 without children, but it's good to have the information anyway.
not fat at all. Skinny actually, I'm working on gaining some weight to make my hips wider. Tricky thing to do while still maintaining a small waist. I agree with you. If I find the right guy I won't hesitate to say "i do."
It's good to keep the future in mind because it's very hard to believe you'll ever age when you're in the thick of it.
Sometimes a girl (aGirl?) needs a reality check, the guys aren't going to be lining up forever. *sigh*
we know* more
Delete@HanSolo
DeleteIf I knew why I was single, I would tell you ;). It's not exactly uncommon for beautiful women to be single. Being beautiful is not synonymous with finding true love, or being in a relationship. I took several months off from dating for my career. And now I'm getting back into dating, and well, I never like anyone, for one.
I've met and dated great men, and less than desirable men. I can't help but value a man who is successful. I've been surrounded by very successful men for a long time, so it's hard to settle for someone less than that, but I also don't want to have to give up my ambitions to be in a relationship with a man who is probably used to getting what he wants all the time. When I think of a man on the rate of a scale of 1-10, I think it's ridiculous. Women just don't rate men in the same way. Men rate women based on looks and added points or detracted points for her personality. This is what's important to them, so an understandable point scale for them to consider. I, on the other hand, rate a man based on their whole package, looks, fitness, personality, humor, and financial success. It's hard to measure financial success... If you meet a multi-millionaire who is a 9, and you meet a middle class man who is a 9, are they even in the same ball park of comparability? Absolutely not. So how do you rate men based on a scale of 1-10 for a woman when financial status is such an important factor?
I've dated men who had everything a woman would want. They were great on paper. But I still felt nothing for them. And that was the shocking reality. But I don't look at men as objects in this way, rating them on their financial status so heavily. To me a human connection is the most important thing, but to ignore how important a man's financial status is, especially to the most attractive women out there, is, well, erroneous.
I read an article that Andrew posted : A Guide To Strong Boundaries. I think therein lies some of my problems.
@J, I don't pertain to know what it's like to be ugly...I don't know if that is your fate, and if it is, I am sorry, but ugly is an extreme adjective. I think being pretty has its own set of disadvantages at times. I think that my friends who are unattractive have an easier time settling down, and finding someone they will commit to. For me, being single is not a hard life. The options with men seem endless, and in and of itself, that is hard. To settle down and commit to one person, to let go of all options, to find a person who that's worth it for, is challenging when there is an endless supply of amazing constantly around you. Sorry, I know this sounds lame, but maybe it all boils down to some inner problem, and it's that much easier to figure out, although I beg to differ.
Amanda, yes, the "formula" for how desirable a woman finds a man is more complicated than vice versa. What is known as SMV (sexual market value) is more complicated (involving charisma, confidence, looks, money, etc. whereas for men it will mostly just be the woman's looks with some small portion her having a sensual and sexual personality--note, though looks make up most of a woman's SMV the man is willing to F down in looks compared to what he would accept for longterm) and a man's marriage market value (MMV) to a woman will include his SMV but likely be weighted more for things such as character, career, compatible goals and so forth.
DeleteSo, I definitely agree that the formula for a male's SMV and MMV is more complicated than the female's.
But I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on this.
As to your situation, well, it sounds like you're "suffering" from the paradox of choices where too many good options plus the fear of something even better coming along make you want to wait. Not necessarily bad if you're 22.
It really comes down to deciding what you want and when. I'm assuming you're early to mid 20's so basically you're at the height of your ability to attract men (and women in their 20's who have lots of things to improve are a different story).
As I told aGirl it really comes down to deciding what you want and shopping around for that for a while but not waiting so long that your attractiveness starts to fall.
Few people can have everything they want. It sounds like feeling that connection is vital and that you want to respect a man's career and financial power. Let's say you have 5 main areas on your list, then I think it would be really valuable to find which one or two of those you could emphasize less so that the odds of finding such a man is higher. It sounds like the guy's looks isn't the most important thing to you so that may be one area to go down 0.5 or 1 points and still find the guy who is a 9 in humor/personality, 8 in career, 9 in emotional connection with you but only a 7 in looks instead of an 8. Just throwing out an example.
For me I was too picky in the past and wanted a beautiful, brilliant, very kind, sexy, and fun girl, and that likes sports and Lord of the Rings. Well, I was finding girls that were interested in me that had many of those things but never all of them. For me, one area that I have decided can be sacrificed somewhat is intelligence, meaning she doesn't have to be super smart. Somewhat smart and intellectually curious so we can have good conversations is good enough.
Thoughts?
To the previous poster, the problem of financially successful men being boring is an interesting point. I can relate to a lot of what you said. It seems that you are valuing financial success based on gross income.
DeleteFirst off, I am the previous Anon writer. I have to figure out how to use a name moving forward. (i.e. will get to that) But my scale was based on physical qualities alone because the personality is non-negotiable. You click with who you click, so no point to mention it.
As far as financial success, I can speak from experience on that one. Personally, I do not find solely financially wealthy men attractive in the least bit. Let me describe this further. I do not find an attractive old money millionaire as a great dating option. I can't relate to someone like that and have hardly ever found them to be of admirable character. Now, I do find ambitious men attractive. With ambition often comes financial success...but I am looking for a man to hold his own, have dreams...more than flash 100 dollar bills as tips to the cab driver. If your idea of marriage material is the latter. I don't think any of this advice applies. Then again, pretty sure you don't need advice on that one. They go for youth and looks alone. Or possibly someone with old money too.
As for the giving up your ambitions for a guy, I can chime in there. I had the same sentiment, which broke my relationship in the past. I was young, with little experience and not ready for marriage. I don't know what age you are at now. But being older and more established now, I would be willing to step down for a man that is 'used to getting what he wants'. I don't see this as a negative thing, as I am like that myself. And one person eventually has to compromise a little more to make it work.
It is a little of a disconnect, not saying this negatively. I have had this problem in thinking myself. Not to say that you have to agree with my conclusion. You are searching for a highly ambitious man that must have the personal qualities to push to get what he wants. And then when he acts as per his personality, you berate it.
Speaking from the perspective of an attractive female, I can say the same of the options you speak of. I personally never made too much us of all these options, tend to take relationships more seriously than necessary probably. I don't find the single life appealing, so I don't feel like I am losing much. If you are making use it, good for you (in all seriousness, not sarcastically). Though even for a beautiful women, it will end sooner or later. And I take the fact that you are on here to mean that it is not fulfilling...so why even mention it?
As for J, I have more to say later. I don't think the answer is so simple. Being unattractive doesn't have to mean just settle for whatever comes your way, unless you want it to. Just like spending money on beauty and counting calories doesn't mean you are optimizing your looks. To gauge if you are doing things right, you must look at your results from month-to-month. Not to say that you must go from 4 to 7 to commend your efforts. But if you are counting calories, like really counting, and the scale is not dropping...you have to look at what you are doing wrong. This is for pretty or ugly women, doesn't matter.
i.e. My skin broke out for 2 years. I blamed genetics and hormones. I bought foundation to cover it up and expensive products to deal with it. I only recently got the issue. You have to deal with the source. I have been on a gluten free diet for 5 months now. I have been religiously sticking to my skin regimen, period. I am using mostly drugstore products, some high end.
@ Amanda (original commenter)
Delete"Because of my level of attractiveness, I am constantly pursued by men who value looks in excess. These men are annoying to filter through."
As someone else pointed out, if "annoying" is the best adjective to describe your problem, I don't have much sympathy. Ugly girls, suffer much more than you.
The simple fact - and I have said this before - is that men pick women they like personally from among the women they are physically attracted to, not the other way around.
As for the ugly features part, I doubt they are all ugly. And really you can counterbalance a hot body with not so attractive facial features. Make your hair flawless with style and money and effort. Go fake on some things. Girls these days have fake lashes, fake extensions, fake perfect teeth, fake nails. They are so real nowadays that you can't tell the difference. And more so, though highly controversial, get plastic surgery for what is unfixable. You seem to be throwing money into products anyway, so I assume you have it.
DeleteIf that is too extreme for you, then stop where you are comfortable. Work with what you have. Build your confidence and stop believing what you have written here. After all, there are women here writing that they are nearly super models. Do you think this is true for all of them? Not to offend anyone else, please. Fake it until you make it. Speak the truth to get advice at present. But there is no happiness from living in that mindset, if you are. Seek positive role models. I believe that dreams can only come true to those that believe...and work for it.
To HanSolo, I always found that really funny that one criteria is likes sports. Or likes Lord of the Rings? Why is this a necessary thing? Honestly, I was friends with a guy that told me this 'sports' criteria. And I told him how ridiculous it all was to me. Isn't it enough for a woman to be open to liking what you like? Why does she have to already feel the same way about it? That is like aiming for a pin in a haystack. Anyway, how can you even know if she really does like sports? Some women read up on sports that their man likes prior to a date to connect.
DeleteI built an initial connection with a guy based on our opinion of a political event. In reality, I had researched that issue to find a hook. He was already pursuing me, I just needed to give him a footing to ask me out. In the end, I knew nothing about his passions. But we clicked and he found me attractive. Because I liked him, I grew interest in what he liked and opened my eyes to knew things. I dragged him to museums to look at art.
This friend with sports criteria eventually dated me. Me, the girl that doesn't play sports. And he wanted to take it further than I did. Because you can go play sports with your guy friends. Or watch Lord of the Rings with them too. It's like saying that I want my future husband to like to read books. Unless I am a journalist, what kind of specific criteria is that. Same with the men that only like brunettes. So, if I dye my hair, you can marry me? It's ridiculous to me.
To Anon above, I am not tall enough to be a model. You don't have to believe posters' claims of attractiveness, but beautiful women exist in the real world, and may even be commenting, whether you like it or not. For me personally, I have nothing to gain by over-embellishing. I am only on here for real advice, and feel that no matter how attractive I am, I am still single.
Delete@Andrew, my most unattractive female friend was the very first to get married. She has an amazing marriage, and a great husband who is significantly more attractive than her. I guess this is why, due to my own life experiences, I may see things differently.
Well, I did say I was too picky back then, right? ;) It is not necessary for her to like LOTR or sports but it would be a nice bonus. I was adding that in as an example of how someone can be too picky. I didn't take the time to mention that since I focused on the more serious quality that I was willing to be more accepting of, namely, reasonably intelligent (but intellectually curious) instead of highly intelligent.
DeleteAmanda, I wasn't referencing you at all. I even ended the statement by saying that I meant no offense to any women claiming beauty on this forum. I could have just as easily have been poking fun at myself, since I called myself attractive. Whether you or I am beautiful doesn't matter to anyone here. I am at the same level as everyone else, when on this forum. A women looking for advice.
DeleteI think that Andrew just meant to say that you seem to be single by choice. There is a difference in that and not having choices to begin with. Telling 'ugly' women asking for advice to just deal with it, might be taken as offensive. Just like telling a pretty woman that you don't know what real problems are can be taken as offensive, as well.
I am really sorry for your 'single' troubles. My advice to you has nothing to do with what I said to J. It doesn't matter to me if you are Heidi Klum, either way. After all, maybe I am a 10 on here as well.
It may be hard for people to give you advice if they can't relate. It makes it more difficult to relate if you start the conversation with...I am a 10 and looking for a financially successful 10 to marry.
I may be looking for the same as you. I find it easier to provide advice if someone writes their flaws or states a specific problem. We all have them, beautiful women included.
If you are a 10, this is probably the best place to get others to judge your actions and character as a woman. That is why I like posting here. Because no one will say, well you are beautiful and blow off my concerns. This is why I personally am here. Though beauty is in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent.
No offense, really. Just I don't see what beauty has to do with it on a forum. Tell people your relationship problems, your thoughts, your wants. That is what I see anyway. Just my opinion.
To all the anon's it really is easy to put in a name, just go to Reply as and choose Name/url and put in a name (the url is optional).
DeleteAll the anons is one person in this thread. From here on out...Valentina.
DeleteTo aGirl, I don't fully agree with HanSolo's advice. It seems very formulated. I am usually a concrete person. But putting all these numbers to how you should act and feel at every age is overkill. There is something to be said of someone that acts like they have a step-by-step approach to love. It shows when you think like that. And you cannot tell someone who feels a certain way about what they want to lower their standards based on a given date.
DeleteSo, jan 1 of every year I will take one criteria off my list. If your list has sports and LOFR on it, then maybe that isn't a bad idea ;) Maybe the key is having a list with legitimate no-dealers to begin with. An honest man, for instance. Or an attractive one. So starting with my next birthday, throw those out the window?
No harm in trying to set a goal for meeting men. But set a goal for love is by xyz date is out of your hands. That is called panicking. And nothing ever happens when you are that desperate to make it happen.
I have always thought of relationships this way. I really, truly want a man to love and enhance the journey of my life. I never want to feel like I need a man to fulfill my life, especially by set xyz date. If I am a beautiful soul working on myself, I don't see a reason why it wouldn't happen before my biological clock is an issue. If I get there, I will deal with that then.
And it shouldn't take a healthy couple over a year to get pregnant. Anything beyond that is considered infertility, medically speaking.
Hansolo-Do you think a non-athletic girl would have a chance with an athletic guy if she at least liked watching sports and had an interest, even if it is just as a spectator? What about dancing? which I guess would be considered a type of sport too.
DeleteYes, she would. Looks and personality are top things. The mutual interests are nice but as long as both are willing to engage in the other's interests somewhat then it should be fine.
DeleteValentina, my advice may sound formulaic but it wasn't intended as such. Just some guidelines to follow to get realistic about. I never said she shouldn't go for feeling that connection with. You're exaggerating what I said. I said be really picky right now while she's still getting an idea of what she wants. I also never said to take one criteria off per year. You can give whatever advice you want but don't distort what I said, please. ;)
Also, there are many couples that can't get pregnant in a year. Look at that site with the rates of getting pregnant in a year. By 36 it was about a 50% chance.
Sorry, I see what I did there. Hate thinking about being less picky with age ;)
DeleteValentina, thinking through things concretely is very important for many women (and men) these days because they're not getting enough of the right advice. Too many are thinking it will just happen, especially some of the beautiful ones that have so much attention but then get too picky (I have two beautiful cousins in their 30's that have lists that are way too long). Too many were told they could have it all, career, husband, kids, etc. Some can but there are many articles these days of women who went for career (nothing wrong if that's what you want) at the expense of dating or having kids and then later regretted it. Too many women these days aren't getting the message about the odds of marrying after 30 or having kids after 35. That's why they need to think about it now and decide if they want it or not (of course, they may change their mind later but better to realize what is most important asap).
DeleteThinking through strategically doesn't mean you then don't look for a connection with someone. It's more just a general shift in realizing what someone wants (a good thing) and coming up with a few things that need to be done to achieve it. In no way am I suggesting turning into a feelingless robot or a mercenary "accountant" that is calculating every single interaction.
I agree that you can't absolutely say by such and such a date you will find love. But by making ourselves more desireable and less picky (eliminating what really isn't that important to us) and getting out and meeting people then we can up the odds.
DeleteAlso, I agree with you in finding a legitimate set of deal breakers that aren't "dumb things". lol
I suspect we're fairly in agreement actually.
Guys don't really want girls who like sports. They want feminine girls, girls who don't give a crap about sports but accompany them to a game with pleasure -- girls who will make nachos for their superbowl party, and not talk too much during it :)
Delete@Anon, yes you are right, I guess I might be having a hard time finding people to relate to my problem on here. I guess what I'm asking for is essentially advice that is non-looks related. All of these topics we are discussing is definitely making me think more deeply on my issues. I never said I was a 10. And not that I have to explain myself but if Victoria's Secret models are 10's, I'd say I'm more of a 9. But I have been pursued by top tier men, some of the most successful men in the world, so the difference between a 10, and a 9 can all be relative, I don't know. I guess 9's can still be in the running a good amount.
DeleteI had somewhat of a traumatic childhood, so reading the article Andrew posted about boundaries really hit home. I always find a stronger connection or "chemistry" with men I need to fix or save. Men who are stable, and great catches, who don't need any "fixing" just don't do it for me. I have noticed that women with a really good parental model (no daddy issues) have better, healthier relationships. Also women with good boundaries do much better in dating. I just know a lot of women who aren't stunners, and are in happy relationships. I just started dating after a long time out, so I will just see how things go in the near future for now.
Although, to be honest, as one of my model friends once pointed out, those Victoria's Secret models are just taller than me.
Delete@HanSolo, oops thought your question was on a different thread. Lots of comments to weed through these days. Thank you for your thoughtful input, it is much appreciated. I have tried dating men who are less attractive than me, and it's never worked out well. Sometimes they are too insecure, and it causes problems, yeah, most of the time it's that. I guess I should work the numbers differently. I have mixed feelings about career. I really do care about a good connection, but a lot of men who are very successful aren't going to be the ones you are having the most soulful connection with! :( I will think about the numbers some.
DeleteThis is completely random but what do you think about girls hoola hooping? Is it sexy or just weird or what? I do it for fun and guys have never seemed phased before, but today in the bar they all seemed very enticed. I wasn't wearing anything particularly revealing either. Maybe it was just my drunkenness thinking that though. Guys, what do you say about hoola hooping? (Funny I know lol).
ReplyDeleteI would also be interested to know. I am always very jealous of girls that can hula hoop for a long time. I think it's the hip swaying thing. Kind of sexy.
DeleteAlso.... belly dancers. Who doesn't think a girl moving her hips is sexy???
I am also jealous of super flexible chicks :(
I would say the 'hoola hooping' is irrelevant - it's the gyrating of the hips that does it. Some women can move in a very sexy and graceful manner which is very appealing.
DeleteYou would probably get the same reaction if you moved the same way with no hoola hoop.
What's an ugly girl to do? :(
ReplyDeleteGet hotter
DeleteI had issues with my weight for 10 years mainly because I was on berth control and I just couldn't loose the weight. I went to the gym 2,5 hours x 4 times a week and all that I could shift was slightly less than 1 kg in a week. The following week I would usually put it on again. Luckily at the time, I had a boyfriend who liked more curves, but I was never happy with weighing more.(I weighed just over 70 kg)
ReplyDeleteWhen I stopped taking the pill, I very quickly lost 10 kg without even trying, even when I was exercising less. I am pretty sure that it was because I had built up muscle when training and the muscles were burning off the fat quicker once my body was going back to its 'normal' pill-free state.
Now I'm 35 yo and slim. I look at overweight women and I wonder if they are on berth control and if they're not and I think 'what a waste' of beauty. I know that they would look so much better if they were slimmer. I know that being overweight is a lot to do with what goes on in your mind as well. It is hard to actually go and do the exercise and eat healthily. I just hope that women in their 20' & 30' realise that they could have much more and to try to stop wasting years when they could have been more beautiful and happy with their weights and lives.
@ Han Solo
ReplyDeleteI heard this old cliche(?) that men has more options as they age, whereas women just age!!
I like to said that this is true to some extends. I have this Uncle, who is 72 years old and constantly hits on my 20-something friends. He has neither youth, personality (he wants a submissive wife), wealth (lives on social security), nor intelligence (never got a BA/BS).
Yet, he flatters himself that young educated college girls wants to be his traditional, obedient wife while refusing to date healthy women near his age.
As a man gets older his failure to acquired prestige, wealth, nor smoothness will never get him a younger girl!!!
What do men think of moles and birth marks on women? Especially on the face? I have one on the upper side of my nose and have thought of having it removed, but the doctor advised against it. It's small, but still noticeable, very slightly raised, but not protruding.
ReplyDeleteI have one on my upper lip, and guys seem to like it.
DeleteWhat about voice types or lisps/stutters? If a man is physically attracted to a woman, would he rule her out if he didn't like the sound of her voice or she had stutter or lisp?
ReplyDeleteAs long as your voice is noticeably feminine (which it will be), that will never be a problem. Especially grating voices are always more the result of personality than actual voice.
DeleteA cute girl with a stutter or lisp is a cute girl times two.
and no, my uncle is able body, but has the body of a 72 year old man!!!
ReplyDeleteHe rejected my 55 year old friend, because he thinks she is too old for him. His limit is 30.
Yes, he does wants to find true love but only with a 20-something young woman.
I would like to argue that sometimes a young girl has no idea what her value is!!!
When I was a teenager, my slutty 35 year old sister would give my home number to 30+ - 40 men, some were divorced and told me that youth fades, so I should give them a chance!!!
So my questions to you or Andrew is this:
If an adult man dates only teenage girls, or pursues very young women but he is a total loser (unemployed but looking for a job, no education, small wealth), does that makes him a catch or a pervert?
Is my uncle a conceited pervert? He thinks of himself as a catch!!!
Moreover, what do young men thinks of a young woman that is dating a 70 year old man with no wealth, personality, nor intelligence
ReplyDeleteor a teenage girl that dates a 30 year old loser that still lives with his parents?
Do men thinks of these young girls as desperate?
Sorry, my uncle is so humiliating that my friends no longer wants to hang out with me.
How much do men care about pedigree? As in the socioeconomic background of a woman's family or the marital status of her parents?
ReplyDeleteI've heard that some men from families with parents that are still married who would not consider a woman whose parents were divorced or from a so-called "broken homes." Similarly, I've also observed some men who reject women that come from families of different socioeconomic backgrounds than themselves, even if the women themselves have worked hard and have transitioned to middle class or wealthy socioeconomic statuses.
Regarding personality, if a man is attracted to a woman and really likes her, but she is a bit shy, quiet, bland, awkward, or nervous on the first few dates, would a man take into account that she might just be nervous and give her time to warm up to him, or we would he conclude that this is just her personality?
ReplyDeleteMy only problem with this blog entry is the assumption that the guys I'm "not getting" are choosing someone else over me or determining me as undesirable... where as I feel like its more that I'm not find guys that are looking for relationships... I'll admit that this is partially because I tend to attract younger men and I live in a college town, and the few times that I have "gotten" attractive men that was to be serious - I've determined early on that its not going to work (usually because of issues of selfishness/self-centered-ness on their part or because the relationship is doomed to become long distance as they are preparing for national job searches too soon to consider moving with them).
ReplyDeleteI'm fully willing to "settle" in the looks department, but not willing to settle when it comes to finding someone that will treat me well, shares my values, wants a family and is fun. I've found these qualities tho, in men that I didn't have to settle for the looks rating and had long-term relationships (obviously ones that didn't work out)- I realize I was younger then and that I stayed in those relationships too long- trying to make them work out and ended up wasting key years of my 20's... so this is where I find myself. When I think of "settling" I immediately assume it will include a character flaw or etc. described above... Where are the guys ready to date seriously at or below my number that are decent guys without the character flaws, etc.?
This brings up a good point, which is that the phenomenon described in the post might not be the ONLY reason you can't get the kind of men you want. The fact that you are in college and no guys want to settle down can also be a significant impediment. Other things might also make it harder still. But this doesn't mean that you can't still improve your chances by living up to your own potential.
DeleteI fantase that true love is about loving someone through thick and thin -- even when the man is having bad days with his careers and in desperate poverty, the woman still accompanies him through it; Even when the woman is falling in bad health and looking in her worst, the man can still help her getting over the darkest times -- that is the ideal love I would love to fantase.
ReplyDeleteBUT I am also a pragmatic person, so I would not try to test if a man is true to me when I am not *marketable* yet. I will go out to meet guys only after I have my lookings fixed. I already look attractive enough but I think after a few month my appearance attractiveness would increase by several times. So I guess delaying a bit is the best.
I myself would prefer a man with good traits like diligence and intelligence over how wealth he is right now. My father told me that when two guys are having similar careers right now, usually the guy from a poor background has way more potentials. Because the poor guy needed to do better to overcome his bad background in order to get where he is at today. My father told me about numerious examples about guys in equal situations, then some years later the one from poor family became alphas while the guys who were back then doing the same then still stayed in the same positions and mostly became the poor ones' subordinates in companies because they did not have as good traits -- only their families helped them with their first phases in careers then the family influences faded. In a word my father tells me to pay most attentions on a man's traits (aka potentials) rather than his wealth (which can be used up). My dad himself is an example of a guy from poor family who became alpha male....
What I mean is somebody pays more attentions to traits/potentials over how someone actually is doing now than others.
I would be more moved if a guy loves me in my worst times than in my best times.
But I am a pragmatic, so I will continue my self improvement now and only go out to meet guys after it....
On another note, maybe I should try to think that my dolling myself up is for people who already love me to enjoy my company better so that I am dolling myself up for them, rather than, say I am trying to doll myself up in order to get love and affections in the first place.
ReplyDeleteWhichever thoughts, self improvements hurts nobody and can not be wrong.
I also try to advance my careers (it might not help to attract man but it helps me to get a better life and if I had a family I see no reasons why more money can hurt the family either....)
I also have a "No Turning Back" rule. It means that for people who betrayed me and for people who I betrayed, there should be no turning back.
ReplyDeleteIf bad luck arranged me to meet them in my worst times and they didn't love me in that, then I am not going to improve myself then go to find them again after it.
If bad lucks did not arrange me to meet them during that and although I would have hypothetical thoughts that if they met me then they would not love me either, then I would try not to think about it. At least there is no baggage there.
I guess most guys do not like gf's and wives who leave them in their career failure periods. Same applies to girls who think similar about guys who change attitudes to them as their appearances change too.
My plan is to start my career somewhere new this year. Meanwhile I would keep working on fixing my appearances, like going through Andrew's appearances checklist....
ReplyDeleteWhen I have the time I would take some courses training myself to give speeches to public circumstances, would also want to improve my cooking skills too....
What about education, career and income? If a woman has an associate's degree and the man has a bachelor's or master's, or if she works at a trade or in the service industry and he's a professional, or she makes an income which is at the lower middle class or working class level and he makes a lot more, then would he be considered out of her league and would an increase in education, income and a career change be the only way for her to have a chance with him?
ReplyDeleteI think in most cases you still have a chance. I'm a girl so I can't really say, but in the manosphere blogs and in the comments sections most men tend to agree that they wouldn't mind dating and marrying a waitress
Deletehttps://heartiste.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/what-a-girls-job-tells-you/
My mother was only a hotel supervisor, no education past HS and my stepdad married her. His family is super wealthy and he owns two businesses (one nonprofit). She's a hotel manager now.
He married her even though she had two girls from her first marriage. I think it was because she was absolutely stunning and super feminine and fun.
I think this was an exception considering his wealth and her beauty, but in general I think it's safe to assume it won't matter that much to him. If she were from a working class background and he was blue blooded (lulz)
then I don't think it would work out. But middle class (her) to upper middle class (him) seems fine.
I wouldn't even feel comfortable dating someone who was rich. I tried it, I always felt really insecure about it. Probably my own demons but such is life.
You have a lot to offer him, it's true, and you should convince yourself of that. Don't make the mistake most women make that a high status career can get you a better spouse. Do that stuff for its own sake.
The woman's job isn't important. Her looks and personality are far more important.
DeleteThe (perhaps harsh) truth: Men Don't Care About Your Accomplishments
Then why do some men reject women if they don't have similar education, income or career success, even if they're physically attracted to them?
Delete@ ANon 10:40 - you have a point. But it's less about accomplishments than being in the same socio-economic class.
DeleteAndrew-In terms of personality, could you do a post (or refer me to one if it's already been done) on how a woman can improve her conversational skills, sense of humor, confidence, the way she speaks, flirts, and/or anything else that you feel might improve her personality and the way she presents herself, or rather things that she might say/do that might be deterrents in her attracting the type of man she wants.
ReplyDeleteHere are two written for men, but the principles are incredibly important and can be applied to women too:
DeleteVULNERABILITY AND MANIPULATIVE WOMEN
THE GUIDE TO STRONG BOUNDARIES
Thanks so much Andrew:)
DeleteThe Guide to strong boundaries has been very enlightening. Might be the answer to my problem. Thank you.
DeleteI often wonder where I would fit in on the scale. I'd say personally that I have a rather nice body. (hourglass figure and slim) I'd say I even have a nice face, besides my nose. I honestly feel like it ruins what might otherwise be an 8 or 9. My nose has that typical ethnic bump on it. I've thought about surgery, but often I wonder if it's worth it.
ReplyDeleteNow, I've seen a lot of really hot girls with a nose like that and play it off like it's no big deal. They even have hot boyfriends. And frankly, I even dated a 10 a couple years back. But...he told me he was into "different" looking girls. I figured this was because the type of girls he could get at a 10 bored the hell out of him.
I don't know. So yeah. Opinions?
If you managed to date a guy who in your opinion is a 10 while you had your current nose, why bother with surgery? Are you somehow aiming for an 11?
DeleteI'm not against plastic surgery altogether. Make sure you get a really good job done though, or it might be worse than before.
DeleteI remember Roissy giving advice to a girl that was a 7 to get her nose done. If you think it would make you an 8 and increase your confidence I say why not??
Only if you can afford it.
Am I the only one who wouldn't want to date a 10?? I'd be happy with a 7 or an 8
I agree with anonymous. If you are already getting guys you want with your current looks whats the point of surgery? If you are insecure about your nose, I suggest you just come to terms with it because it doesn't seem to be affecting in any other way. Seems like the problem isn't your nose but the way you view it. Use the money for a great vacation or a new wardrobe instead.
DeletePersonally,Im biased against plastic surgery. I admire and find it endearing when people make the most of what they have rather than use the easy way out (surgery).
Lots of guys are into the ethnic bump :)
DeleteBest Post EVER...as of yet! nice one Andrew
ReplyDeleteIs all the number ranking based only on "looks and appearance" or other stuff too?
ReplyDeleteTo me a 10 guy, for example, would be confident, financially successful and reasonably handsome. A 10 girl would be smoking hot, well groomed, classy and fun.
For women, being fun and approachable goes a long way. You don't have to be a supermodel to attract desirable men.
I think I'm maybe a 6 or 7 in terms of looks, and always felt like I could get any guy I wanted. Guys are easy...
"I think I'm maybe a 6 or 7 in terms of looks, and always felt like I could get any guy I wanted. Guys are easy..."
DeleteHa, they're easy alright...for sex. They suddenly become more difficult when you want more.
I would probably sleep with most 7s if I got the chance, but I would only date an 8 and marry a 9.
sheesh. someone has impossibly high standards... you would only marry a 9? That level of high egotism is blinding.
DeleteHey Thomas, I almost made that distinction in my original post... i thought it might be taken that way. What I meant is: guys are easy to flirt with and charm (I don't have sex with guys I just meet!). Once you've got a foot in the door, you have to continue to be the most interesting, fun and charming girl they've ever met. He'll want to date you. Then, just be patient with him. Don't push him or question him. Let him feel "independent" and in control. Be pleasant. Demonstrate your loyalty to him. Shower him with affection. Be interested when he speaks. Listen to his problems with concern. Support him. And continue to be the same interesting, fun and charming girl he met. He'd be stupid not to marry you, doesn't matter if you're a 6 or a 9 in terms of looks.
DeleteP.S. I said in terms of looks I'm a 6 or 7. But I think personality (fun and approachable-ness) should impact the number. I don't know, maybe I'm an 8 if you take that into account... Hard to rate yourself...
DeleteA 5 quickly becomes a 9 when you get to know him/her, and realise you love everything about her. The same goes for a 9 or 10 that you get to know and he/she turns out to be a real twat.
DeleteIf love doesn't blind you, he/she is not the right one and then you should't go for it. It's that simple.
Ann
Anonymous 9:57
Delete"That level of high egotism is blinding"
I thought I was being modest aiming for just a 9 and not a 10!There's no harm in having high hopes - I'm sure reality will kick in if I get serious about looking for a wife. I'm happy dating 7s and 8s for the moment.
Hi Sally,
Yes you're right: I find flirty, charming, friendly girls (like you) very attractive - it definitely adds to their score, but only by so much. If you find it easy to get any guy you want you're both friendly and attractive. I'd say you're actually higher than you rate yourself :) which makes you modest too!
Totally agree with Ann. Once you get past the superficial stage the person's attractiveness score becomes irrelevant: you fall for them and they are the most attractive person in the world to you.
DeleteI think you just need to be attractive enough to be in the acceptable range. Then be interesting and fun enough so he will continue wanting to hang out with you. Then hook 'em in with a great blow job, he won't be able to get you off his mind!
@Thomas, just wait til one of those 7s rocks your world. You'll eat your words about the 9s and 10s ;)
After thinking about it, I guess there are some guys who are out of my range. I'm thinking of extremely good looking, rich guys who I've come into contact with through work or networking events (executives, investment fund managers, sons of rich/important people..) ... they tend to flirt with me, but I doubt they'd date me, unless I really stepped up my game to try to look hotter and more in their social class. But I've also never been interested in these kinds of guys. I wouldn't want to be with someone who is significantly "better than me", I'd rather someone who had a similar life experience to me, who I can relate with on many levels. I'm suspicious of people who are too successful or too well dressed. It probably means their priorities in life, interests and motivations are different than mine. For me, being somewhat-intellectual, a bit free spirited, and having a sense of humor that complements mine is more attractive than being rich/having nice things/being super good-looking. So, I guess I prefer 7s over 10s, making the dating game easy for me :P My problem is that I'm attracted to intellectual free-spirits, and then they end up having some terrible quirk (or mental health issue) that I learn about after dating them for six months :( Or... maybe everybody has those. Sigh.
DeleteIts interesting to me that women are as hung up on snagging an 7/8 and above as men are. I have a female friend who is a genuine 8/9, her mother was a model.
ReplyDeleteLooks are largely unimportant to her.She assesses a man solely on how he treats her,having seen photos of 3 of her ex bfs I would say they were average in looks.They were not millionaires either :-)
She believes marrying someone less good looking and at least 5 years older than her will mean she is likely to be treated better as a wife.At the same time she has had the same problems as most women in gaining commitment from men.
Maybe truly "hot women" feel less need to prove their looks or they want to be placed on a pedestal.
@Sienna-I think that good looking women are probably (and please note,I say PROBABLY, as there are exceptions) better off with men who are equal in terms of looks, or who are only slight less attractive than themselves. I've observed that average or unattractive men with hot women sometimes become jealous, insecure, resentful and accuse the woman of being high maintenance and full of herself, even when that's not the case.
DeleteHere's an interesting article related to the topic.
http://broadblogs.com/2011/12/12/men-who-hate-pretty-women/
@Sienna-I also think that women who choose older, less attractive men with the assumption that they'll be treated better should very carefully filter and not just assume that they'll be treated better just because they're younger and prettier,because that's not always the case. A woman who expects such treatment solely or even mainly on the basis of her looks and age and doesn't get it would most likely be in for a rude awakening and end up discontented. While I don't see it as entirely negative for a woman to get an ego boost from being the "younger,hotter wife," she would be wise to make sure that she's with the guy because she loves him for him,and that he loves her for her; not just or or even not MAINLY because she's younger and better looking. I mean, how comforting would it be for a woman if her husband were to suddenly love her less if she were to prematurely lose her looks and gain weight due to illness or stress? And wouldn't most men prefer that a woman's main motivation in being with them be because she actually loves and cares for him as a person? Not just, or even not mainly because she perceives his age and looks relative to hers as a means to prevent her from feeing insecure when she ages and her looks start to fade?
DeleteAnd some older less attractive men will even take a younger more attractive wife for granted thinking that they're entitled to such a woman ( or even several) without ever being grateful or realizing how lucky they are.
DeleteNot sure how true this is, but I've heard that some men who married their wives while she was still young and in her prime will and do still see her that way even after decades of marriage, and even when they consciously know (and can see) that age has changed her body and looks. It's almost like she's immortal to them. So I would think that even women who marry men their age whilst still in their youth and prime, wouldn't have to worry so much about their husbands finding them less desireable as the years go by.
DeleteThere have been some men on hookingupsmart saying that lately. I once fell in love with a girl and then she went away and gained 15 or 20 lbs and came back with a chubby face but I didn't care even though I could objectively tell she wasn't as pretty.
DeleteI think that for me the focus on looks is kind of like these evolutionary genetic/health filters (or laser satellites guarding my planet from beastly Imperial Star Destroyers) to keep out women that aren't pretty enough (sorry if that sounds harsh but just trying to be as honest as possible) but once they get by that the threshold level to stay on planet HanSolo (and me stay in love with her) is lower than the level to be granted landing permission (initially fall in love).
So according to Roosh's post, the MAIN reason a guy will dump a girl is because he doesn't find her attractive enough?? Or is he just referring to the initial stages before personality comes into it? Because he doesn't mention personality at all haha.
ReplyDeleteThis is how Roosh rates individual girls to screen for LTRs
Deletehttp://www.rooshv.com/the-girl-score
So I did start an online dating account and I've got to say that I absolutely love it. I've already been asked out on dates by guys that seem to have a lot of potential. I think to optimize your possibilities and options, online dating is a really good thing to do. This way you are putting yourself "out there" even while you are doing different things. It also brings you into contact with people you would have never met otherwise. I just really like it (even though I haven't gone on an actual date yet - maybe it will be a different story after the dates lol). Especially if you are a bit of a hermit like me it's a very good thing to do. I have been using my filtering skills as well. For example, I have told a few guys who were much younger and who made advances to find girls closer to their age. I am also alert that there are guys who are just looking for sex.
ReplyDeleteIn respect to this blog entry, I think that this phenomenon does play out in online dating. I do not message guys but I rate them and I have noticed that I get messages from a lot of guys who I give lower ratings to. Most of the guys that I give high rating to have not messaged me (they don't know that I rate them cuz the highest rating I give is 3 so they are not notified). But I am very pleased that a good amount of the guys I liked the most did message me. Of course with online dating it's easier to manipulate your attractiveness than in real life.
What website did you sign up for?
DeleteOkCupid
DeleteHanSolo, can you e-mail me? I have an idea I'd like to run by you.
ReplyDeleteI emailed the gmail account here. If you didn't get it let me know here. Cheers.
DeleteI am looking for some insight from an older guy. I am currently 22 seeing a 28 year old man. I have two questions: (1) He often calls me cute, or says certain things I do - like worrying about my groceries is cute. Or if I am panicking about exams, it's cute. I am kind of perplexed. I would react naturally, but my natural reaction seems to be fogged up by the feminist discourse I overdosed on when I was 16. When you call a girl cute in such a context - what's the reaction you're hoping for? (2) We're different races - he's white, and I am, well, not. I am not sure if this is grounds to filter him out. I do not want to. As such, I would appreciate some legitimate advice from a white male on this. Is he considering me as seriously as I would him?
ReplyDeleteI find those things cute in a girl too, especially the younger girls I date (20 to 23). Assuming he means the same thing I would in these situations (which I think is reasonable), he actually means two different things by the two comments:
Delete(a) You worrying about his groceries is "cute" in a nurturing sense. He likes that you take care of his like this. While cute isn't the most appropriate word, he is expressing the fact that he is more attracted to you when/because you do this.
(b) You panicking about your exams is "cute" because he is several years past school at this point and these things seem trivial to him now, though he knows they consume your world. By calling it "cute" that you worry about these things, he is showing his experiential and possibly intellectual advantage over you, which he enjoys, as do you, probably, as you like the fact that he is more experienced and can offer you advice about how to handle your difficulties.
Andrew, so do you think that early 20s girls should date men even more than 3-6 years their senior? I think I remember you advising women in this age group to not go beyond the 3-6 year gap, but if you're dating someone 20-21 and you're 28, then that surpasses your recommended age difference. Nothing wrong with that at all, just wondering if you've changed your stance on the subject.
DeleteHow can you know if you're dating in or out of your league?? You might think you're better/worse looking than you are. Now I don't know if I can really get the guys I want and I'm just selling myself short with my lack of confidence, or if I can't and need to lower my expectations. If I'm interested in a guy I can usually get him but I usually hook up with him right away and then it just becomes a hook up and they don't want a relationship. Hm I'm just more confused now.
ReplyDeleteRe-read the last paragraph of the post. It answers your question.
DeleteAs for the hooking up part, that is addressed in this post: Don't Fuck on The First Date
Wake up call: Since you men love the pretty ladies, know that we rate you on how successful you are. We do care about your accomplishments. The most beautiful women want the most successful men, who are attractive, and have a good personality. Your financial status matters a great deal. It's not the end all be all, but it's an enormous factor of consideration.
ReplyDeleteNice post,I was just thinking about another point as to why women cant get the men they want.I hear that from many female friends;they want a guy with a specific look and wont even look at a guy that doesn't answer to that expectation! Guys would be shocked about how much girls and women do place importance on that.What happens is the guy with the look is usually without the inner qualities they want..Which makes sense its like wanting a cat in a body of a dog- it just doesn't work that way.
ReplyDelete