I've heard a lot of girls make the following comment:
Consider what seems at first to be a relatively obvious and uninteresting fact: virtually all men need to drink alcohol before they will approach a woman they are attracted to. Think about that: virtually all men need to drink alcohol before they will approach a woman they are attracted to. You might not be able to empathize with the difficulty of approaching women, but this fact tells you pretty much all you need to know. Pause for a moment and ask yourself what other social actions are so unnerving that people would almost categorically get intoxicated before doing them (if it were socially acceptable to do so). Public speaking maybe? A big job interview? Confronting a good friend about something very important to you? A lot of people get nervous about these kinds of things long before doing them - hours, days, or sometimes even weeks in advance. Approaching a random, attractive woman is easily on the same difficulty level for the vast majority of men, and for a large number of them, it is much harder.
I am sure some female readers are thinking "That is ridiculous; it shouldn't be that difficult." Fine. Great. Maybe it shouldn't. I could say the same thing about public speaking; it shouldn't be that difficult either. But normative statements aside, the fact is that, for most people, it is. To paint this picture as clearly as possible, I am going to draw a quick analogy...
Imagine that every time you wanted to go on a first date to a guy, you first had to get up and speak in front of a full classroom or conference. Imagine you are walking down the aisle in the grocery store and a tall, attractive man turns towards you and is about to say something, when suddenly everything freezes and you find yourself sitting in a high-school classroom, being told that next week you will be expected to speak in front of the class, alone, for 15 minutes about an assigned topic. Remember that feeling of dread you used to get when the teacher made that announcement? That is precisely how it feels for most men when they are faced with approaching a random hot girl for the first time.
But it isn't even that simple. For the analogy to be accurate, you won't only have to swallow your pride, get up there, and do the presentation, but you will actually have to achieve a grade of 80 % or higher if you want the guy to ask for your phone number. It will be difficult to present the material naturally when you are nervous, because you will probably rush through it, maybe forget certain details, or speak too quietly. You posture will matter a lot too, but it is difficult to stand up straight when you are nervous. So your nerves will not only make accepting the challenge difficult, but they also destroy your chances of earning the requisite 80 %. Actually summoning up the guts to push through that initial fear is nowhere near enough.
Don't forget that in addition to the quality of your public speaking itself, the content of your presentation will need to be interesting and original. You won't be able to impress the class or the teacher with mere poise; you will also have to show them that you know what you are talking about - that you are intelligent and understand the material well. At the same time, you shouldn't overdo this demonstration, because if you try too hard to impress them, it will be obvious that your knowledge isn't organic, that it was rehearsed for this event only.
There is more. Remember that you will be graded on a curve, relative to the other students giving presentations - just like a man is always judged relative to a woman's other male options. And there will always be other students in the class that are naturally more gifted than you. Remember that nerd that always looked like he owned the class when he got up there to give his presentation? Not only was he confident, but he also made it painfully clear that he knew exactly what he was talking about - probably better even than the teacher. You were the first in the class to present, and he was one of the last students. Trying to get a better grade on your presentation than that kid is what it is like for most guys who want to talk to that beautiful brunette in the corner, who is standing right next to a 6'3" athletic, good-looking and cocky guy, who has probably bedded dozens of girls like her. You got up in front of the class to compete with the nerd because your teacher required it. Would you have done it if you'd been given the chance to opt out? What motivation does the guy in the bar have to challenge himself?
In fact, it is a huge testament to the depth of the male desire for sexual companionship (and I don't mean that only in the physical sense) that we push through these fears and nerves - yes, sometimes with the help of alcohol or game - in order to talk to and attract women. We do routinely get up in front of the class, swallow our pride and nerves and try our best to beat that nerdy kid with the killer public speaking skills and nerves of steel. And we often do it without any external motivation.
I am not trying to glorify the struggles of men, nor am I am trying to excuse our weaknesses. I am simply trying to show the girls who say things like those quoted at the start of this post that the male-female comparison isn't as simple as they believe; and I think analogies like this one go a long way towards doing so. If public-speaking isn't something you find difficult, then you can substitute it for whatever makes you nervous. Maybe for you it is going on roller-coasters or telling someone you care about that you love them for the first time. The point is that this kind of comparison will help you understand - and hopefully, therefore, appreciate - how difficult it can be for a guy to approach or pursue a girl he really likes. This understanding will count towards your general understanding of male behavior, which in turn will serve to improve your chances with men.
Related Posts
1. What it Is Like to Be Rejected by Girls
2. The Upper Hand In Relationships
3. How To Make Yourself Approachable
4. Why Men Don't Approach You During the Day
5. The More Confident He Is, The Less He Likes You
This guy at the bar was staring at me all night, but he never approached. What's the big deal?? If he likes me, he should just come talk to me! I want him to; why is he so intimidated?Or others have said essentially the same thing in suggesting that
A guy doesn't need to use pickup lines to talk to get girls. He just needs to say "hi" to get the girl he likes.The truth, of course, is that a guy just needs to say "hi" to get the girl that likes him. To get a girl without her prior interest, he "just" needs to impress her with his confidence and bearing when he approaches. He "just" needs to be calm and carry the conversation without making himself look like an idiot. The guy who stares at the girl across the bar but never approaches knows that this will be difficult to do when his pride, reputation and success all hinge on his performance (in fact, as we know from the quote above, he judges that it is too difficult, maybe impossible, and never approaches).
Consider what seems at first to be a relatively obvious and uninteresting fact: virtually all men need to drink alcohol before they will approach a woman they are attracted to. Think about that: virtually all men need to drink alcohol before they will approach a woman they are attracted to. You might not be able to empathize with the difficulty of approaching women, but this fact tells you pretty much all you need to know. Pause for a moment and ask yourself what other social actions are so unnerving that people would almost categorically get intoxicated before doing them (if it were socially acceptable to do so). Public speaking maybe? A big job interview? Confronting a good friend about something very important to you? A lot of people get nervous about these kinds of things long before doing them - hours, days, or sometimes even weeks in advance. Approaching a random, attractive woman is easily on the same difficulty level for the vast majority of men, and for a large number of them, it is much harder.
I am sure some female readers are thinking "That is ridiculous; it shouldn't be that difficult." Fine. Great. Maybe it shouldn't. I could say the same thing about public speaking; it shouldn't be that difficult either. But normative statements aside, the fact is that, for most people, it is. To paint this picture as clearly as possible, I am going to draw a quick analogy...
Imagine that every time you wanted to go on a first date to a guy, you first had to get up and speak in front of a full classroom or conference. Imagine you are walking down the aisle in the grocery store and a tall, attractive man turns towards you and is about to say something, when suddenly everything freezes and you find yourself sitting in a high-school classroom, being told that next week you will be expected to speak in front of the class, alone, for 15 minutes about an assigned topic. Remember that feeling of dread you used to get when the teacher made that announcement? That is precisely how it feels for most men when they are faced with approaching a random hot girl for the first time.
But it isn't even that simple. For the analogy to be accurate, you won't only have to swallow your pride, get up there, and do the presentation, but you will actually have to achieve a grade of 80 % or higher if you want the guy to ask for your phone number. It will be difficult to present the material naturally when you are nervous, because you will probably rush through it, maybe forget certain details, or speak too quietly. You posture will matter a lot too, but it is difficult to stand up straight when you are nervous. So your nerves will not only make accepting the challenge difficult, but they also destroy your chances of earning the requisite 80 %. Actually summoning up the guts to push through that initial fear is nowhere near enough.
Don't forget that in addition to the quality of your public speaking itself, the content of your presentation will need to be interesting and original. You won't be able to impress the class or the teacher with mere poise; you will also have to show them that you know what you are talking about - that you are intelligent and understand the material well. At the same time, you shouldn't overdo this demonstration, because if you try too hard to impress them, it will be obvious that your knowledge isn't organic, that it was rehearsed for this event only.
There is more. Remember that you will be graded on a curve, relative to the other students giving presentations - just like a man is always judged relative to a woman's other male options. And there will always be other students in the class that are naturally more gifted than you. Remember that nerd that always looked like he owned the class when he got up there to give his presentation? Not only was he confident, but he also made it painfully clear that he knew exactly what he was talking about - probably better even than the teacher. You were the first in the class to present, and he was one of the last students. Trying to get a better grade on your presentation than that kid is what it is like for most guys who want to talk to that beautiful brunette in the corner, who is standing right next to a 6'3" athletic, good-looking and cocky guy, who has probably bedded dozens of girls like her. You got up in front of the class to compete with the nerd because your teacher required it. Would you have done it if you'd been given the chance to opt out? What motivation does the guy in the bar have to challenge himself?
In fact, it is a huge testament to the depth of the male desire for sexual companionship (and I don't mean that only in the physical sense) that we push through these fears and nerves - yes, sometimes with the help of alcohol or game - in order to talk to and attract women. We do routinely get up in front of the class, swallow our pride and nerves and try our best to beat that nerdy kid with the killer public speaking skills and nerves of steel. And we often do it without any external motivation.
I am not trying to glorify the struggles of men, nor am I am trying to excuse our weaknesses. I am simply trying to show the girls who say things like those quoted at the start of this post that the male-female comparison isn't as simple as they believe; and I think analogies like this one go a long way towards doing so. If public-speaking isn't something you find difficult, then you can substitute it for whatever makes you nervous. Maybe for you it is going on roller-coasters or telling someone you care about that you love them for the first time. The point is that this kind of comparison will help you understand - and hopefully, therefore, appreciate - how difficult it can be for a guy to approach or pursue a girl he really likes. This understanding will count towards your general understanding of male behavior, which in turn will serve to improve your chances with men.
Related Posts
1. What it Is Like to Be Rejected by Girls
2. The Upper Hand In Relationships
3. How To Make Yourself Approachable
4. Why Men Don't Approach You During the Day
5. The More Confident He Is, The Less He Likes You
I would have dropped the class... So this makes sense to me. Good comparison!
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I remember taking Nerve Tonic, a stress reliever, before my speech communication class...haha how horrible. You've made your point Andrew
DeleteI always appreciate how you present the male perspective for women, but IME I have yet to see a woman in the wild behave or speak in a manner that in any way suggests that she is remotely aware of the differences between men and women's experience in the sexual marketplace, hell life in general. I'll keep hoping material like yours soaks in.
ReplyDeleteThe world comes (SHOULD COME) to women - assuming they are somewhat attractive. And this is not limited to men that they have deemed to be attractive enough ("I want him to") to warrant an interview with her. We can draw parallels to many other areas of life in which women hold (to their own detriment) onto the mindset that things "just happen" that they are entitled to the buffet of life's bounty by merely being. This often shows up in their career choices - and resulting dissatisfaction that is quite similar to the sentiment expressed regarding the lack of good men, etc. But I digress.
The preselection/attractive threshold is a key factor in the approach dynamic. Most men do not carry themselves with unbridled confidence, nor are most men physically attractive to most women at first pass. Most men do not have the physical stature to elicit the "I want him to" in the first place. Most men are keenly aware of this.
Further, a great many men who are physically attractive - but are not tall or aggressive or extroverted or some combination, know all to well that within a competitive setting, where options are infinite in the female mind, the physical component of her "I want him to" is a very small window; more likely than not it is just one one of several decent looking resumes in the pile. Say he does step up to the plate. He gets one or two pitches - and the more attractive the woman, the more likely those pitches are coming from a MLB lefty with a sick slider and not a meatball down the pipe from a fledgling single-A pitcher with a torn rotator.
Factor in the modern (and unfortunate) fact that the "pile" of resumes is never limited to the venue. Women make love to their I-phones at the bar constantly. Texting. And texting. Looking for something better. Looking desired from afar. I don't think that women appreciate how the cumulative effect of these behaviors are hurting the approach. Men have to compete with the seen and unseen in ways that did not exist before the invasive instant gratification, hedonistic, feels-good-do-it, optionality obsessing, FOMO disorders took hold.
You want to know how to make men (that you have pre-qualified) approach? Approach them first. If that is too "awkward", at least put down your phone and stop flirting with the bartender/dude with the backward hat long enough to draw him in. And note this: many men will watch and see the type of men you respond to, so if you say you are not looking for the player types, then you'd better back that up with declining their advances whole-hog and be prepared to go without some attention in order to make yourself available to that guy across the bar who is not approaching.
As usual, a lot can be learned from flipping the perspective. Its not just "why is it such a big deal" for him; it is "what am I doing that might be impacting whether or not these men approach?" Share just a little of the risk and the rewards await. Learn your IOIs and be prepared to lob a few softballs and not cringe - or attack, if/when he shanks the first one foul.
Maybe I don't remember properly, but doesn't Andrew discourage women from approaching men? Like you said, it's better to look to look approachable, rather than approach. Maybe Andrew can correct me on this one...
DeleteI approached a hot shy looking guy at a hip hop show about 5 weeks ago. Pretty certain it was the first time I've ever really directly approached a guy out at a club that I thought was hot. (im 30). Usually its guys approaching me but this guy was too cute to not approach! I was HELL nervous and scared too and didn't have any girlfriends with me as I'd gone to the gig with a male friend (who I waited to leave first, before i approached the hot guy, as i get the feeling my friend fancies me and i didnt wanna be disrespectful). We chatted for a few mins but either he was mega shy or wasnt interested or had a gf because even tho he replied my questions/chatting, he didnt show any signs of interest in me (tho he did mention what vlub he DJ's). Moral of the story: it was so scary to approach a hot stranger but I knew I had to cos I would have hates myself if I hadnt of! No numbers exchanged, only names but I felt happy after and realised I cud do it again, in future. Tho def interested to hear Andrew's thoughts about girls approaching guys! Paulina.
DeleteInteresting read.
ReplyDeleteWell men look at me in a good way, but don't generally approach me. I must be giving them the wrong vibe. Maybe they think I'm attached or I'm not confident enough, who knows...
I wish there was a guide on "Why men don't approach you."
This post of Andrew's is a guide on "Why men don't approach you." What else do you want?
DeleteDo you mean "you" as in the girl writing this comment. Why don't men approach YOU?
I'm a guy who--through approaching and making mistakes--has developed self-confidence and verbal skills. Before I had the confidence I have now I would only approach if it seemed like a lay-up, basically if I had an easy opening. If she was standing at the bar next to me, if my friend was talking to her friend, if we were in line, adjacent seats on the subway, both squeezing avocados next to each other, in the same class, etc.
After going through the long and sometimes painful process of learning how to approach and lead women there are a few circumstances under which I feel like its not worth the effort. If a girl is clearly with a guy (from reading their body language and the way they interact), if she is in a big boisterous group, if she's on her phone the whole time, or if she looks sour/pissy/annoying.
So, first men must overcome their fear of approaching or have been born confident, and then they must decide that they want to approach YOU out of all other possible girls. Unfortunately most guys don't get past the first part. If they do get past the first part then they are confident enough to know that some approaches will go well and some will not. They also know that they only have so much time every night. If you aren't standing out as someone they want to approach, then they probably won't get around to you. Also, this is very important, a guy with real self-confidence--rather than arrogance or mere assholery--will know that he has options, so he will be going after the girls he wants who are often times the most attractive in the venue.
If you aren't his type, aren't particularly attractive, and don't look easily approachable, a confident guy won't approach you and its not likely that a non-confident guy will approach you unless you're standing right next to him or he's inebriated.
I don't care if you want advice, but here it is. If you notice a guy looking at you and he's not approaching but you're interested, then you need to do some work. I'm not saying you must approach him, but make an effort to give him a subtle or not-so-subtle invitation to approach. The easiest way is simply to stand in close proximity to him. If he's at the bar, then order your next drink from the spot next to him. Accidentally "bump" into him as you move to position yourself at the bar. Brush your boobies up against him. Smile at him. Smiling is probably the easiest.
If you're totally chickenshit, then get a friend to approach him for you. Even have a guy friend roll up and say something. A guy friend who is afraid to talk to chicks will talk to other dudes if the other dude isn't scary looking.
If the place you're at has a dance floor then take a girlfriend out on the dancefloor with you and move to within a few feet of him. If you feel like actually approaching is too forward, then compliment him on an article of clothing, ask him what he's drinking, as him for the time.
Hey there! I like ur reply to the anonymous girl above! :) the guy i recently approached at a club (as described in a reply to Andrew's post here), i first casually asked him if he knew the name of an amazing hip hop track playing in the club. I was with my friend and a killer old school track came on. I Shazam'd the track but I wanted confirmation on the artist and this hot guy was standing near by so I used the fact I wanted to confirm the song artist as an excuse to talk to this hot guy. Then a few hrs later I approached this guy directly. Not sure of my point lol but just sharing my experience! :) Paulina.
DeleteThats an excellent example. You make the effort but in a way in which you're safe from "rejection." You baited the hook and tossed it into the water. Can't make him bite.
DeleteI meant as in me, the girl writing the comment. What you said And Balls is interesting... I am not heavily into clubs/pubs so I encounter men elsewhere. They look at me as in 'hey, this girl's attractive', but leave it there. Some are with a lady friend, so I get the whole they cannot do anything about it behaviour. About the rest, it seems as you said I am not approachable enough.
DeleteSo, we'll assume they find you physically attractive. You gotta leave the ones with the lady friend alone unless you can tell that they are only friends.
DeleteYou also have to remember that when guys are out and about during their daily lives they often have a purpose or a mission. Be it heading to work, to school, to the gym, to the grocery store, reading in on their lunch break, whatever. Often times they are in their heads thinking about whatever it is they're doing now or the things that they must do that day or something in the past that happened at work, with their girlfriend, their mom in the hospital, etc.
It is very difficult for most guys to switch out of logical mode to fun-flirty mode. Many guys have conditioned themselves to play the logical role at work or school and almost have a "daytime" personality that arises from playing that role everyday. Most guys don't give themselves permission to be fun-flirty unless they are in a social setting like a concert, sporting event, or bar and often will require alcohol to induce the fun-flirty side.
I mention all of that to tell you what's likely going on inside their heads when they see you. Female beauty cuts through all of that for a split second and that's what causes the look that you notice. Frequently the guy gives you that look and then reimmerses himself in whatever he was doing or thinking about. Maybe later his brain will remind him that he saw an attractive girl and he'll think "I should have talked to her."
During the the day, or when on public transportation, at the grocery store, out shopping, or walking down the street are all tricky situations from the male perspective. There's no alcohol and no expectation of social interaction. Male-female interactions between strangers in those contexts usually happen once the guy has gotten up the courage to say something or if the situation requires him to talk to you (you are the clerk, he's the waiter, you dropped your cucumber, left your purse behind, etc). Unfortunately for guys--its an absurd cosmic joke--by the time we've gotten up the courage to talk to you, the window for approaching has usually passed. The window is particularly brief if you're walking in opposite directions down the sidewalk or what have you.
During the day or in non bar/club situations most guys will require effort on your part. You may try a bit of acting as a "damsel in distress," but I don't know if the guy you want will be the one to "save" you. The advice I can give is be stationary, innocently sit down next to him, be doing something interesting that a stranger might comment about, look friendly and open, look your best (or look the the "type" of the guys who you like), go where the guys you like are likely to be.
Coffee shops might be good for you. Sit down near a cute guy. Comment about something he's wearing or doing or reading or even his choice of laptop. Ask him to watch your stuff if you get up to go to the bathroom or to get a coffee. Engage him in the ensuing conversation and help to guide it along. Get to know him. If you like him and want to see him later, then prime him to ask for your number. Suggest an event. If he mentions something coming up that sounds interesting, hint that you might like to go. Use that "female intuition."
Overall, most guys will not approach a woman they don't know during the day or in a non-bar setting (heck, most guys won't approach in a bar setting). You'll have to do something mischievous to get his attention and let him know that it's "safe" to talk to you.
Fear and his assumption that you won't be interested are ultimately what's holding him back. Find a way to remove or mitigate that component and you'll have a better chance.
You are very helpful, "And Balls". I will try the coffee shop idea. Not generally the type to sit on my own at a café, but will give it a go. I like bars, just not to potentially meet men - mainly they tend to be quite noisy and the ones that end up approaching me are too drunk or purely want to get laid that night. When I am in gigs, people tend to not venture out of their circle.
DeleteI used to regularly participate in some after work hobbies / social activities with new social circles as to meet men. Been a bit slack lately, maybe I should get back into it.
I'll take your advice on board - definitely up for that coffee shop idea.
Thank you so much for this post, Andrew. I'm getting increasingly frustrated when I go out because the guys I'm interested in rarely end up approaching me, even if their stares suggested their returned interest. Often I see them end up with a girl who approached them first (who is often not as attractive as he is), which frustrates me more: I recognize the value of letting the guy make the first move, and that the guy may as well be taking advantage of a less-than-perfect situation that presented itself stress-free. But nevertheless, they end up meeting, and I'm always alone with my high standards.
ReplyDeleteSupposably short girls get hit on the most, so you're probably putting off a vibe that suggests you aren't approachable. You look snobby in the pic from your April 12, 2012 blog post.
DeleteAlso, your "high standards" may be an issue. You're cute and have a decent figure, but you're not a knockout. What guys do you like? Businessman, fratstar, hipster, musician, athalete?
When I say "high standards" I don't mean guys that qualify for GQ model status. Guys I find attractive other girls may not find attractive, and I have a good idea of who is in my range and who isn't. I'm not attracted to guys that would be considered "sexy" or the male equivalent of a knockout. I like boy-next-door types, cute guys, who are outgoing and funny. The main problem is that most of these cute, nice guys have girlfriends. It's not an issue of not being hit on, but rather being hit on by guys I like and not fratstars/sexy Europeans/creepy dudes/otherwise-not-my-types. Maybe its the bar scene? I don't know. While I'm a bit taken aback by your judgement I realize I am putting myself out there since this links to my blog and photos, but I think you sized me up accurately (minus the snobby part, but possibly the unapproachable part). My main concern is even when the guys I'm attracted to express interest back via frequent eye-contact, they don't make the moves, and then they get snatched up by a girl who starts talking to them first. I'm reconsidering whether or not it's always wise to wait for a guy to make a move.
DeleteFor the record, I like munchkins.
DeleteYou like, "boy-next-door types, cute guys, who are outgoing and funny." Hopefully for you some of these boys will get up the nerve to come talk to you after they have a few beers in them. But honestly, the guys who you describe typically meet their girlfriends in class, at work, church/synagogue, volunteering, or through friends and family. These guys aren't the ones who will approach a cute stranger at a bar. Your best bet is to become more involved in activities and groups where you are likely to bump into and get to know these guys.
My observation from your pictures is that your body language suggests that you are closed off and a little insecure. I don't know what its like to be tiny and maybe you walk around feeling intimidated. A guy who is twice your size may be scare you and thrill you at the same time.
This is not to insult you, but rather to tell you what you're signalling in pictures. A little more confidence and open, relaxed body language may entice guys to approach. Its honestly hard to tell from over here on the innanets.
A good way to talk to the kind of guys you want to talk to out at the bar is to go with a group of girlfriends who want to go out and meet people and have a good time. Ideally your friends should be warm, and don't take anyone who is in a bad mood or prone to stupid drunk drama. There are groups of girls who go out to have a good time and meet people, then there are the ones who go out to get validation from guys. The latter will dance in their best impression of "sexy" in a closed-off circle and when not dancing be on their phones texting, taking pics, or complaining that their heels hurt. Go out with your group and be open to talking to groups of guys--while obviously watching out for each other. Bouncers, bar staff, and other guys WILL keep you safe if a guy gets out of line. Dance, flirt, and have fun. In your case maneuver your group of girls near his group of guys. If there is any chemistry between your groups, you will find yourself interacting with them. From there its easy for you to talk to the cute guy you fancy if you have a modicum of social skills.
Other than that, you could try online dating. The odds are good, but the goods are odd...
What an interesting post!
ReplyDeleteSo Andrew, what can we do to help make it easier for guys to approach?
ReplyDeleteVery true about confidence--i think that is KEY! I didn't consider these difficulties until reading this post. There's a guy I like and have gone to lengths to be explicit about my interest, but he's very shy and apparently insecure. He has really bad game and sometimes I'm afraid that I intimidate him with my directness and confidence. For example, one night we went out to a bar. We were sitting talking and I could tell that he wanted to kiss me but he was nervous and as much as I tried to calm him down we kind of hit a dead silence. Another time when we went out, we were with mutual friends. I was completely drunk and it was then that he kissed me. While I appreciate a guy's diffculty, men need to understand what a head fuck they can be.
ReplyDelete...part two: Apparenty his prior girlfriends are all asian. The last one was his booty call who even fucked him while she was dating someone else. And it got my to thinking about his comfort level with approaching asian women as opposed to white women. I guess he's the stereotypical insecure white guy. He asks me out occasionally and i'd like to think we're friends, but I'm on the verge of moving the fuck on to the other men in my life who actually have the balls to take the emotional risks that we all do. There are other variables, but as a woman who takes risks, someone should send a message to the male population to man the fuck up!
So, Andrew, you addressed that men can be shy. When does shyness equate to disinterest?? Have you ever lose a woman because of hesitation/overthinking/shyness?? How do women overcome this? Get them drunk?
This will not end well. Move on. He's either not interested in which case you're wasting your time, or he's too insecure. If he's too insecure, then you will grow to despise him over time and you will not be friends in the near future.
DeleteYou already mouthraped him, what other signal could you possibly give to make your interest clearer?
This is the truth. Furthermore, IMHO he's probably not that interested in you. Sorry, if that sounds rude to say. He may be shy, but not so shy that it stops him from getting girls into bed. So if he's kissed you but things have stalled, then he's probably not interested enough to fully pursue. He's had his chance. If I were you, I'd move on.
DeleteThanks And Balls - Some things are too complicated to figure out some times.
DeleteOk, so I thought about this some more and I think there are other variables, not just an issue of interest or insecurity. I think a lot of it has to do with timing and other things and other people in our lives. BUT I think if anything will happen, it will lol I wouldn't like him if he weren't a great guy so we will see.
Delete"...and didn't have any girlfriends with me as I'd gone to the gig with a male friend (who I waited to leave first, before i approached the hot guy, as i get the feeling my friend fancies me and i didnt wanna be disrespectful)."
ReplyDeleteFew things cockblock more than hitting the town with a dude "friend" - one that you acknowledge wants to bone you. If you pick up on that, the guys around you will for sure. Women who roll with men on the town are very low on my list of approach prospects. Off topic, but sounds like you enjoy soaking up male attention and might benefit from dropping your orbiters entirely. Wait for him to leave or not, if I saw you arrive with a guy and unless he is 105% gay, I've already crossed you off. Oh yeah, guy friends are fun and cool and nothing "happens" with them or you are not into them in "that" way and all that, but I'm not going to waste my time figuring out what that is all about - and I'm not going to compete with some current or former or wannbe FWB or ex or orbiter or whatever. Not worth it.
I get what you're saying at one level. At another I'm not sure if you're commenting more on her enjoyment of being out with a guy who she has put in the "friendzone" or if you're commenting on the challenges inherent in approaching a girl who is with a guy.
DeleteEither way, you should be able to tell from watching them interact for a brief moment what's going on between them. If they're a couple, if they're just friends, if he's more into her than she him and vice versa. Last week I approached two girls who appeared to be "with" two guys because I noticed that the guys were trying a little too hard and though the girls seemed like they were having fun they weren't reciprocating the guys advances. The whole picture said that the guys were more interested and wanted to make something happen while the girls were content to soak up the attention. I walked over and started talking to the four of them.
One was married and the other was hot. After about 15 minutes the guys decided to call it a night. I didn't do anything other than make conversation. It was fun hanging out with the girls for the next hour and got the hot one's number.
Anonymous... I totally get that. Unfortunately I've taken an interest into a style of music that most of my circle of friends are not into, yet this male friend is more than happy to come along with me. I was gonna say cos he's open to checking out new clubs etc, but perhaps it is just because he's into me? Perhaps it'd be better to head out solo sometimes?? I know this can be way intimidating for me, tho I've done it before. I'd rather go out alone to a gig if no friends wanna come (OR with a male friend) rather than just not go to the event.
DeleteWhat is an "orbiter" by the way? Someone who is hanging around me?
And Balls... that's a good point. I believe guys should pick up on body language and when I'm out with this male friend (on a few occasions) I do make the point to not appear to be into him, lol and have "open and friendly" body language (I'm single). Awesome you had the guts to go and approach the 2 couples, worked out well for you! You have "Balls" lol :)
So, you have taken an interest in polka, huh kiddo?
DeleteYou don't have to head out solo if you take a girlfriend with you.
An "orbiter" is a male friend who will say he's ok with being "just friends" but actually wants to bang you. He hopes that if he hangs out with you enough times that one day, or one sweet night, he'll "get lucky" with you.
Balls,
DeleteRe: the friendzone and the going out with these men, both are poor strategies relative to making yourself available for men to approach. Its cake-eating 101. Some sexual tension, some good company, attention, even that nice "safe" feeling that comes with being at a club, etc. with a man. Thats all fine, but it isn't increasing her odds.
Point is, we are talking about ways to improve the approach dynamic. The fact that you approached that group is an exception to the rule and while I don't know anything about you, there is also the other issue about what "type" of men are doing the approaching in those contexts. I say this because for many women, the approach issue has to do with the fact that there are a lot of men that are not approaching them - the men that are not full up on game and/or PUA and/or naturally bold, etc. A dude that rolls into a foursome cold, is not the target of this post. Most attractive women are already being approached by men who are comfortable playing the numbers game. I'm assuming this post has to do with the men who are not out there mixing it up like that. For the sizable population of men for which approaching is rare, women can help their odds of being approached greatly by reducing the complexity, ambiguity, and competitive nature through their choices and behaviors.
" I believe guys should pick up on body language and when I'm out with this male friend (on a few occasions) I do make the point to not appear to be into him, lol and have "open and friendly" body language (I'm single)"
The belief that guys SHOULD do anything is part of the problem. Men SHOULD approach, they should just know the situation, do the work to figure it out either before the approach or quickly during. My point is that holding onto this kind of perspective/expectation is fine, but it is not helping you. When men survey the situation - particularly those who are not natural approachers, they are going to focus their efforts on the path of least resistance first. This doesn't mean just the low-hanging fruit, but it does mean that at the very least they will have to take some time to figure out your situation and despite all the body language stuff, these days with all the casual, FWB, on-the-sly, and hookup culture we are not so quick to rule anything out. And in terms of isolating you for conversation, the more complex or perceived competition within your situation, the less likely he will take the risk and focus on the women who don't require as much interpretation (work, risk).
And Paulina, venue is very important too. I'm assuming you are not limiting your social time to these clubs with this particular music scene. Clubs are fine for hooking up, but your playing pretty long odds with your venue selection too - that is if you are looking for more than the casual circuit. So maybe your music/club time isn't going to be as fruitful, fine, enjoy the music and just practice employing some of these techniques during the day or in other social settings. I do think that it can be good to roll alone on occasion too. Some of my best approaching/meeting/conversing has come when I am out in my own and meet a woman out on her own.
The general rule is that men are more attractive to women in the company of attractive women and women are less attractive to men when they are in the company of other men. Regardless of "body language". The presence alone is powerful enough to matter.
Hi Anonymous, yep agreed with most of what you said. I'm going to a few different "clubs" with different music styles, because i actually LOVE the music, not because i want to pick up/meet guys, tho of course if i do, thats an extra bonus. and yes im looking for more than a casual hook up, but besides online dating, not really sure where else id meet people, as my hobbies are mainly night related (ie, specialised dance style).
DeleteAnd Balls.. no, havent got into polka music yet, lol :)
and add to all of Andrew's points...
ReplyDeleteEvery guy knows there's at least an 80% chance that he will fail or she will reject him. Every guy approaching knows it is more than likely he will get shot down.
deti
I don't know how old you are or what exactly your deal is--I quickly skimmed the blog someone made for you--but if you're being "rejected" 80% of the time, then you're doing something wrong. Attraction is not a choice, and that's not some silly line, its reality. If you approach correctly in the way that pushes her biological buttons, she will be attracted to you. She might not express it in a way that you can read, but she will be attracted.
DeleteApproaches may or may not "fail" in the long run (i.e., you don't have sex with her) for a variety of reasons, but 80% failure on the approach signals that you need to work on your approaches. At worst, the ratio should be reversed.
I'm not saying this to you as a way of showing off my massive e-pen0r, but rather to put it out there.
Absolutely. And then there are guys like me so scared of the whole approach stranger in a bar thing that they never approached a woman in their entire life in this scenario. I'm 47 now and I can look back on the occasions when I noticed a really attractive woman looking at me as I walk into to work and wondering why she's looking at me (never thought I was attractive, skin problems, now resolved at 47).
DeleteWomen have all the power in the dating game. All of it. They don't have to approach, they don't have to do all the work, they have nothing to lose and the guy risks getting humiliated in public.
Now maybe you think I overstate the case. But that is what's going on in his head (*) even if (as in my case) I run my own successful profitable business that sells software worldwide to Fortune 1000 companies.
(*) Unless he's either a lucky confident guy or one of these assholes who thinks women should worship at his feet.
For me, getting involved in social dancing, walking and playing musical instruments changed it all. Lots of excuses to meet women who want to meet men (and dance arm in arm with them). Much easier. Much more fun (for both men and women). And no going to wine bars, parties or pubs hoping to bump into a girl who likes you and have the courage to talk to her once in a million years.
How can a woman fix the situation without approaching herself (as you said is not a good thing to do) nor is it something I desire to do. How can a girl appear available/interested? Would saying a mild joke or a fake question "Where did you get your watch from, I'm trying to buy a similar one for my Dad's birthday?" (I know that was lame) work? Of course, I'm regarding scenarios like gatherings, meetings, random places. Not bars.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/10/05/relationshipstrategies/how-to-let-a-man-know-youre-interested/
DeleteSometimes I wonder if men simply look without being interested. If they look at you with a smile and/or a brightness in their eyes, then OK yes they like what they see. However, not sure what it means when they simply just stare without a happy/pleasant demeanour. Can it be that they find you irresistably ugly ? Uniquely ugly ? Unsually ugly ?
ReplyDeleteA lot of guys don't know that they lack a happy or pleasant demeanor. They definitely aren't looking at you because you are ugly though. When I see an ugly woman, I immediately divert my gaze. It is purely instinctual. A few times I've seen exceptionally ugly women and looked for a few seconds (3 max) in a kind of amazement, but then away and never back again. If a guy is looking at you repeatedly it is because he is attracted to you.
DeleteThanks Andrew. I guess it answers my next question of whether or not to smile or acknowledge if someone is looking at you. Just to be polite if nothing else. I guess men looking at men is bit like women looking at babies. The thing is when I see an especially ugly baby, I make an effort to be particularly nice to it. I guess I don't have to worry about the baby taking it as a cue to approach !
Deletemen looking at women I mean
DeleteSometimes I look more than once because I can't tell if she's attractive or not--especially out at a dimly lit bar or club.
DeleteReminds me of that Seinfeld episode "The Strike" where Jerry's date either looks beautiful or hideous depending on the angle at which light strikes her face.
DeleteAndrew, while your analogy isn't inaccurate, it's much more elaborate than it needs to be.
ReplyDeleteFor a girl to know what it's like for a man to approach a girl, all she has to do is imagine what it would be like for her to cold approach a man she is interested in. If she had no friends. On a day when she feels 'fat'.
Ok I have a question I'd love to get opinions on. What are the odds of a man leaving his dinner party to approach a woman? I was out on the town with my girlfriend. We went to a pub/restaurant and we sat adjacent to a man waiting for his friends (turned out to be a grad party). His first friend came and I thought he was cute. I was checking him out and I noticed him looking at me as well. I even adjusted my seating to be a bit closer to him (and to get a better view of the band). But he never came over. This isn't the first time something like this has happened to me. I want to know what I can do to increase my chances of a man approaching in this situation.
ReplyDeleteIm also open to the possibility that he found me attractive but not-attractive enough.
It could just be the logistics of the venue you were at. For some reason, it's a lot harder to approach girls who are siting down
Delete@Y
DeleteI don't know how much the attraction aspect matters because, for most guys, the more attractive you are the less likely they will approach because of a fear of rejection. They don't understand that the most attractive girls are generally really nice about "rejecting" your approach. A few weeks ago I approached the hottest girl I've ever seen in real life and asked her to dance and she said, "I'm good, thanks though."
So your table was directly next to his table?
It may have been the case that he was content to hang with his grad party friends. They were either all the fun he needed or he didn't find you attractive or he didn't want to put a damper on the fun by getting "rejected."
In either case--I don't know the specifics of the venue--approaching a girl who is seated is tricky. The scene in Vicky Cristina Barcelona where Juan Antonio walks up to the girls and asks them to come with him for the weekend...yeah, that's rare in real life because of the balls it takes to execute.
If I walk up and you're seated, it feels awkward if I'm standing for more than 30secs. I need to either sit down next to you/bring a chair over, pull you out of your seat, or you have to have the awareness to invite me to sit down. I don't know the specifics of your seating arrangement.
Also, if your table was close to his table and they are having fun you could simply comment on something they're saying or doing and see if they bite. IF they don't bite, then pretend it never happened or say it louder. AND, since you are with your girlfriend you both could have safely walked over there and said "hello." It won't be anything like approaching by yourself if you both go over just to chat because then you're not actually approaching, just investigating.
Maybe the guy you were checking out was taken. Just because a guy has a GF doesn't mean he won't look at women, especially when she's not around.
DeleteAndrew, will you do a post on how to get an ex back? And how to make a guy put effort into a relationship where he has become lazy?
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you still go out in Clarendon or have you moved since the texting post where you mentioned it. I wonder if I have seen you out before! :0
Excellent. After a lot of daygaming alcohol is now unrelated to approaching, the alcohol is for me because u like the taste. Its liberating.
ReplyDeleteI think that guys should simply approach girls in their own league rather than constantly trying to score high and get a girl out of their league. That would immediately increase their chances.
ReplyDeleteEven if looks are not the most important thing for a women when selecting a future partner, it is important when being approached by a guy at a bar. So even if a guy may have some chances with a girl that he meets, let's say through friends, he may not have the same chances if he would approach the same girl randomly at a bar.
You know, I have mixed thoughts about Andrew's post here. On the one hand, as a woman, I can respect that always having to make the first move and always having to pursue has its challenges.
DeleteHowever, I think this comment really sums up my feelings. I think Andrew is simplifying something that really can't be simplified. Sure, men get rejected more than women, and that large number makes it harder to approach the next woman, but let's pause and ask *why* so many women you are approaching are rejecting you and what are the *reasons*.
I never reject a man, off hand, who isn't within my league. The only men I reject are those who are *very obviously* out of my league. And, I'm not just talking about looks. I'm talking about overall life styles, ages, and packages.
I'm 33, have a college degree, and work a white collar job for a fortune 500 company. If a man who only has a high school degree and works a blue collar minimum wage job asks me out - should he really be surprised if I, politely, turn him down?
Last week I was asked out by two younger men. One 24, one 25. I turned them both down. There was nothing wrong with them. In fact, one was pretty much ideal other than his age. But, since I'm looking for a serious commitment and relationship, I feel I'm not going to get that with a man 9 years younger than me. In fact, when the one asked me out, he even commented on he doubted I would except because he was so young.
So, should these men really feel bad because they were rejected once again? As a woman, should I feel bad because I added one more tally to their rejection total? I think not.
I'm sorry if you are tired of rejection; started aiming for woman who are more likely to say yes than the stars. I keep telling my male friends it is NOT that hard to get a girl. It is NOT that hard to get sex. It is NOT that hard to get constant sex. It is NOT that hard to get a girlfriend. All you have to do is start asking the RIGHT girls.
This is the same reason I don't feel sorry for men whose wife goes ape shit crazy, cheats on him, divorces him, and leaves his life in ruins. Because, *you* were the one who chose *her*. Stop picking woman based on looks and start picking them more on substance and you will end up with better results.
The same can be said for women.
J,
DeleteAppreciate your comment, " I never reject a man, off hand, who isn't within my league." Take a moment and think of your female friends and how many of them are like you. How many of them have dated men who cold approached them, how many of them take the time to know a man's education and occupation before brushing them off based on initial impression? How many of your friends have told you that they met a guy who seemed perfect, but was boring, nice, plain, etc. and so won't go out with them?
My point is that if you keep telling your friends "it's NOT that hard" yet they don't succeed, then that means it's hard.
I would suggest that next time you're out with a regular guy, point a girl that you think is within his league (and remember that you mentioned you don't base "league" on looks alone, so how is one to know which girls are the "right" girls) have him approach and see how it goes. What % of times do you think that would succeed? If it works > 20% of the time, I will move and start hanging out with you.
This (the original comment) is like saying "women should just accept what comes to them, or maybe a guy who is slightly press attractive than what normally comes to them; that way they'll know that he will sick around."
DeleteThere might be a small element of benefit in this mindset (for both sexes), but it leaves no room for self-improvement or ambition in relationships. Both of which are important for long term stability.
There is simply no way that I could be happy without knowing that my partner is at the upper end of my "league." And i think the same is true for many (most?) people.
Less*
DeleteAnon,
Delete"How many of your friends have told you that they met a guy who seemed perfect, but was boring, nice, plain, etc. and so won't go out with them?"
None. If a guy seemed "perfect", they will go out with him *until* they learn that they found him boring, nice, plain, etc. At which point he is no longer "perfect". And if they felt he was boring, nice, plain, etc - then they wouldn't have thought he was perfect in the first place.
Regardless of if someone is boring, nice, plain, etc - if you are with the right person, for you, you will not see him as such. For my friends and I, what we look for in a man is someone we can respect and be proud of. The last guy I date, and would have married if he had been into me, all my friends thought was an introvert complete dorky nerd. And although I admit he was, it didn't bother me at all. I loved every inch of his nerdiness.
And sorry, no, just because you don't have success doesn't mean it is hard. It simply means you are doing something wrong. The definition of insanity... Well, I won't finish the overused quote, but it is true.
"(and remember that you mentioned you don't base "league" on looks alone, so how is one to know which girls are the "right" girls)"
Because I'm a smart cookie and use my brain. You can tell a lot about a person within the first minutes of observing them. (Call me Monk like). Where you are and where they are, what they are doing, how they are dressed, how they talk - all are tale-tale signs for you.
I can promise you a greater than 20% successful rate but I'm not sure you would always like the woman I targeted for you. Unless you are ken, you are not going to be getting Barbie. =)
I know your comment wasn't directed at me but...
DeleteYou can aim for the upper end of your league but still be in your league. The problem is when you insist on going outside of it, in obvious ways. If you are 50 and always hitting on 20 year olds, don't cry to me with you get a 99.9% rejection rate. I'm not going to feel sorry for you.
"There is simply no way that I could be happy without knowing that my partner is at the upper end of my "league." And i think the same is true for many (most?) people."
If ending up with a beautiful partner was the secret to happiness, no one would divorce a hot person. And yet, gasp, divorce is rampant, even among beautiful people. The people I know who are the happiest in their marriages? Surprisingly, none of them are that attractive and were not in their youth either.
I know you truly honestly believe from the bottom of your heart that the secret to happiness begins with being with an attractive partner but the reality is, happiness comes from being with a partner whose soul meshes with your own. And, they are attractive BECAUSE their soul meshes with yours. It's not a soul meshes with mine because they are attractive.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8646930/Happiness-is-based-on-wife-being-slimmer-than-husband-according-to-study.html
DeleteJ,
DeleteLet's establish that I can tell who is in my league and who is not,as you mentioned that's easier when everything is taken into consideration.
BUT
"And sorry, no, just because you don't have success doesn't mean it is hard. It simply means you are doing something wrong. "
Ok, but you said previously
" All you have to do is start asking the RIGHT girls."
So if all I have to do is ask the right girls and it doesn't happen I'm doing something wrong? Fine, there are many things that I can do wrong, call her a cunt in the first three minutes, etc. These are easy to avoid. So what in your opinion are the right things to say and what percentage of guys do you think can do those things? We're still talking within the same league...
Here are the things that I think play a role:
1. Whether you're her type or not (either a musician, or rich, or good looking, etc)
2. Timing-she's single now, she's is a good mood, she's with her friend who brought her boyfriend and is very open to meeting guys, etc.
I have hit on maaaany women within and out of my league and more often than not it's these two things that determine my success. So how do I maximize my chances? It's a numbers game
@J - Re: your curriculum vitae (education, Fortune 500 company etc)... You have painted yourself into a corner, my dear. You also state that you are 33 years old - so you are of the age group where women have outnumbered men in colleges and universities. Comparing raw numbers, there are more women "like you" than there are men "in your league" eduationally. Furthermore, unemployment and underemployment have hit your age group of men harder than it has hit women. So, men who you are considering "in your league" are fewer and farther between for you than women who are "in their league" are for them. Sadly, that is not even the worst of it. Most successful men don't care about your education and professional accomplishments nearly to the degree you care about theirs, so you have invested a lot of time and energy doing things that only marginally increase your worth as a potential partner to a man. It is no mistake that so many highly educated and successful men are more than happy to choose vapid, pretty types of women. Men do not primarily look for an educational / income earning equal - they want beauty and femininity. Your only advantage is over women of equal physical attractiveness who are less successful than you. Women who are more attractive than you will swoop the men you want 9 times out of 10... And trust me uneducated, non-professionally-successful women find the men "in your league" highly desirable.
Delete@J - BTW, men "beneath your league" who hit on you have judged you to be "in their league" of physical attractiveness for how much money/success they have to offer. Men and women deal in different currencies. Men are ok with what seems like wildly disparate relationships when it comes to professional success -- ala Donald and Malania Trump. A man with a lot of "male capital" (success) will gladly partner with a woman who has an equal amount of "female capital" (looks).
DeleteAgreed with @Anon 4:44p and 4:53p
Delete@J, who sounds abit like a social-climbing 'have-it-all'-mod-fem beta-hater, is on her way to the cat lady store as we speak.
The only currency women are likely to have more of than men is looks. -Which they will of-course, lose.
She should have been flattered that the younger guys hit on her at all.
Since she's at/past The Wall, that practice will be declining with time.
"Leagues" are BS. All guys hit on women reasonably hotter than they are.
-I think HUS did a piece on this, and her hypothesis was 2 points up is the target for most.
And as far as "Leagues" go, count on women to be more delusional about theirs.
Andrew,
ReplyDeletedo you think it is true that as men get older, they have more and more options or is that just a myth.
As a young woman, I had dated a few older men (they were all under 40) but they had money. I was too inexperience to know my worth, but I certainly never found them attractive. I went out with them because I was insecure and hungry. Now I am dating men about my age or a few years older.
Same thing with my friends. The older men they dated had money, but they always went back to guys within their generation.
Must an older guy be financially stable to attract a young woman or can he attract her on looks alone? I mean, can a 50 year old janitor get a 21 year old girlfriend?
My ex (he was 3 years older) told me that as he gets older, he will have more option and I will be doom to live with cats after I broke up with him. He also drop out of school and last time I saw him, he was homeless, couch surfing, and freeloading off of people.
Is he right? Can he get a 21 year old girlfriend at the age of 50, if he continues live his freeloading lifestyle?
How old are you and your ex?
DeleteI think men peak at around 28-33, value beginning to diminish slowly after 35. And as a man reaches 38 the chances of him getting married at all suddenly become quite slim if not impossible.
Fertility peak for women is 28 (well, some say it is 24) physically speaking. As a woman reaches 35, fertility becomes a very serious problem especially if she hasn't had any kids yet by then. It's better for women to get married by 30s. If later than 30s, then better keep it before 35.
Males have a slightly wider age range on this issue but they have their clocks too. There are males who are damaged by their delusions of peaking ages, play too much at young and end up old and broke too.
But 28-33 is men's peak assumes that the men are getting richer and richer with more stable careers, better suited minds to commit to and start a family rather than still being in playful mindset. Mere aging with no gaining in finacial/career/psychological stabilities can not get a man into his peaks. It only makes his values lower and lower.
DeleteI was 21 and he was 23 when we broke up. He just spends too much time partying, smoking, drinking, and stop going to school. He also told me that he will always be attracted to 16 years old girls. When I ended it, he insulted me by telling me that as he gets older, and older, he will have more options and that I will just get uglier.
DeleteAbout a year later, I saw him at the school library and he look like he was homeless. I heard from mutual friends that he stays with friends until they kick him out and neither of his never married parents wants him to live with them either.
From my understanding, as he gets older and older, he will continue to approach young girls because that he is what he finds attractive.
DeleteI agree with Grace.
DeleteThat being said, it is almost impossible for a man to age without improving his confidence, bearing or intelligence - at least a little.
I've noticed a significant improvement in the girls I get over the last few years (I am 29), but, as Grace pointed out, it isn't because I'm hotter due to the onset of wrinkles or the fact that my hairline has started to make a move. (Worth pointing out that over time I HAVE learned to dress well, optimized my facial hair, hairstyle, and my increased confidence has improved my posture.)
Your ex just sounds bitter. What he is saying isn't completely wrong, but it is definitely exaggerated.
Your ex sounds not just bitter, but actually insane...
DeleteI just feel so sorry for any 16 - 21 year old girl that he "seduce," into being his girlfriend. None of them would last, but in his case he just needs a temporary place to live until his next girl.
DeleteI feel sorry for him because I thought I could have done something for him when stop attending school and spends all his day partying and freeloading off of me, but he choose to live his life this way.
On men and 'options' as men age:
DeleteOne. If a man accumulates indications of status -- mastery of career, mastery of some interesting hobbies, confidence in social situations, dough -- and takes his physical fitness seriously, he will have women throwing themselves at him. He will have to keep any online profile hidden most of the time just to manage the female traffic.
In the case of the couch potato guy, no. He won't have male friends either.
Two. Interest in the older man goes up even more if he is just plainspoken about not being a submissive lover. Feminism has created a generation of men who don't lead in the sexual realm, and the most ardent feminist (say, Amanda Marcotte) thinks Don Draper is dreamy. The more alpha the female, the more she wants to be dominated sexually. It's bizarre. I've found that the smart thing to do is not remark on the cognitive dissonance. Women over 35 seem to be dying for a man who will take charge, sexually. So, fine.
Three. The age spread is is a point of pride with women. It is not an expression of the limits of interest. (This is another one of those feminist contradictions, like the feminist rejection of alpha male behavior while seeking it in the sack.) See all the comments here. "Ewww, creepy, etc." However, women don't ask the age of a man they're attracted to; they just don't ask. So the max age spread thing is really not true; max physical appearance spread is. Online the women behave one way (enforcing an age spread max threshold); in public that doesn't exist. Older women who make dating decisions based on age alone, instead of appearance and other qualities, wipe out their own target market. I understand completely if a woman is just not attracted to a man not her same age. I too have preferences. But the public pronouncements on this subject have little relationship to what is going on out there. I am regularly receiving serious flirtations from 20-somethings I meet in casual, nonthreatening situations (say, airline cabin). My daughter is older than that.
I think that it is reasonable to reject a man based on age. I think that men that refused to date within their age group are also missing an opportunity.
DeleteMy ex's qualifications to be "seduce" by him is 16 - 21. It just kinds of sickens me to see these young, naive girls that does get seduce by him because he does take charge aggressively but he is extremely irresponsible.
So in his case, he would be successful but only to a certain age. As he gets past 35, the only solution would be for him to seduce a woman his age and live with her, than starts seducing her teenage daughters.
I do feel sorry for my ex because I wish I would had done more to help him, but he choose to live his life this way.
He is like Jerry Sandusky, a little adolescent boy inside a man's body.
On the topic of age, I think that men and women do misses chances at love. I also think that as a man age, he should also be realistic. I want to give an example about someone I know, Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller is about 70 years old and attends same university.
Mr. Miller tries to pursue these young 20-something girls, but he had been unsuccessful because he has neither youth, wealth, nor the intelligence to attracts them. He is very domineering, but no young girl wants to submit to an old man when she can still get a young man. Mr. Miller refuses to date women his age because he informs me that they are unattractive!!! In this case, would you suggest that Mr. Miller should lower his standards? I am sure most men prefer that their spouse stays young forever, but men age too.
I think Mr. Miller should do whatever he wants, even if it makes him appear ridiculous to many people. (Unless he's insane, some young women are rewarding him for his efforts, though.) I think the same thing is true for you, for me, for everybody.
DeleteMy real point is that there is a broad gap between what many women say and actually do, in regard to age differentials.
Also, a point I didn't make, is that most women don't seem to mind much when a woman couples with a man 20-30 years younger. They don't indulge in "eww creepy" commentary about old woman/young man affairs. Last, a point you make ("men age too") is commonly made. It's really just a tautology: older men are ... older.
So in general, I don't really care about Mr. Miller or how old Liz Taylor's last hunk was. I think we should all just ignore the people who have preferences we find weird. In this subject area, though, feminists disagree. It induces their shaming impulse.
I am indifferent to who men or women of any ages date. This is coming from a feminist! However, I do fee sorry for Mr. Miller because he seems lonely and just wants some company.
DeleteSo I am confuse as to why he pursues young women. He even try to court me!!! I ended the friendship after he put the moves on me despite my repeated statement that I see him only as a friend. Which I did, because as a young woman, I have no desire to waste my youth being an old man's caretaker. He already live his life, I am going to live mine and I refused to compromise to fulfilled some old man's delusions.
When I did ended the friendship, he was very aggressive in maintaining it to the point that I have to report his actions to the campus police. He was never arrested, but refused to take NO for an answer and kept harassing me via text, but also kept approaching me. I am happy that it ended, but I felt guilty because he just wants to be love by a young woman.
I do wish Mr. Miller happiness but I think he will never find it with a young woman. He simply has nothing they want. I think that if he is that lonely, he should find a woman about his age to date.
What really irks me is that he is being taken financial advantage of by young women, despite the little money he has. I even have to pay once for gas and cheap dinner, because he lives on social security and has no money save up for some odd reason.
I think that he would prefer to take young women out to dinners but go home alone than to find an older or old woman that will cuddle up with him in bed. He deserves to be love, so as does everyone else.
Do you have a problem with feminism anyways? I think that it is ironic that you think it men and women should date whoever they want, and that is wrong for feminist to shame older men for wanting to date young girls.
DeleteAt the same time, you shame women for refusing to date older men and prefer men within their age bracket. Which is about 5 - 10 years older. If you truly believe that men and women are free to love, then would you humble yourself to with held shaming of young or older women who refused to date a man that is 20+ years older than her?
Despite your observation, would you really shame your daughter if she is to be courted by an old man of 80 years by telling her that she misses a chance at love or would you praise her for rejecting him due his old age?
I am indifferent to whomever men and women choose to love, so long as everyone is of legal age. I do admit that I have a problem with my ex choice to pursue 16 years olds as he ages, (he told me that he would always be attracted to them but deem older women unattractive) only because he should had mature instead of acting a child. He is no difference than Sandusky, and I do hope legal actions are taken when he indulge in his preferences.
It's true.
DeleteA man's options generally increase with age. Assuming he is not horrible looking and is progressing normally in a decent career, his attractiveness can keep increasing well into his 40's and potentially beyond. That's because what women find to be most attractive (confidence, maturity, wealth, etc), usually increase as a man ages. That doesn't necessarily mean a 40 year old guy will have 18 year old girls throwing themselves at him. But 25-30 year old girls? Absolutely.
A woman's options generally decrease with age. That's because what men find most attractive - physical beauty - usually decreases as women age.
A beautiful 18 year old girl has the world in the palm of her hand. A confident, successful 35 year old man has the world in the palm of his hand.
Worldwide, independent of culture/nationality, the average age difference for married couples is for the man to be 7 years older than the woman. The reason it's this way and not the reverse is obvious.
I think that men should just approach women within their own league, who will treat them better or as an equal. why would any men approach a woman out of their league, and worship her? He either must have great game, loads of money, or confidence.
ReplyDeleteAs a man gets older and older, can he still approach a young woman with ease or must he learned some serious game and is financially stable?
Depends on the woman. At 22, I probably would not consider dating anyone over the age of 30. Also at 22, my friend would not consider dating anyone under the age of 28. It's personal preference. However, I imagine that young twenty-somethings who could consider dating a man who is 40+ either has some father figure issues to work out, or dates a man based on his income. I could be wrong, though, but I have yet to meet a girl my age who will date a guy twice her age.
DeleteMe either, and I am the original commenter.
DeleteI dated older men, but it was short live, I was insecure, and while it was fun to go to cool places to eat, they were very controlling and condescending. They were also able to manipulate me more.
I am over 30 and would never consider dating a man under 30. And yet that's what I have done, my last boyfriends were all well under 30, except we didn't know when we first started dating because it was all incredible chemistry. As we all live and work in an international environment where everybody hangs out together it's much more about who you are, not when you were born.
DeleteNow it ended for other reasons, like moving locations but that's a different story. The latest one I'm still with though.
And we are all grown-ups with a good income and job and can take care of ourselves. That helps.
I am 23 and have no interest whatsoever in much older men. 28-29 is probably about the very oldest I'd go to. My friends feel the same. I've never met a girl in her 20s that has any interest in 40 year olds.
DeleteMy parents were exceptions.
ReplyDeleteMy mother approached my father. They were colleagues in the same office. Now they still have this monogamous long term marriage ever since.
I think when women feel attracted to some men, they can give hints to encourage the men to take moves. Even if women let men take initiatives, it still does not mean that women can only wait on whoever coming on the aisles. Intentional selections almost always work better than random driftings by waiting on whoever courts you.
I get what you're saying here, but honestly I still find myself confused. We as women are told so often that if a man is interested he will "make it happen", are we not? I keep thinking of the book/movie "He's Just Not That Into You". But at the same time I feel like nothing would EVER happen if I didn't just do it myself. I can't even tell you how many guys have thrown the "attracted eyes" at me, some who were taken, but a lot who weren't, but who will literally never bite. I usually chalk it up to nerves because I can see that they are nervous around me, and treat me differently from other girls. Basically when they have made the attraction apparent in every way EXCEPT asking for a date or making a solid first move.
ReplyDeleteIn the past, I have tried to lessen the pressure by being a bit more forward- asking if they might want to hang out, flirting back, giving honest compliments and just generally making it clear that I would indeed say yes (in the case of mutual attraction)- and it almost always backfires. What is that? Are these guys just not into it ultimately or am I missing something? In my mind, romance and dating should be simple- you like each other, you hang out. But it's never that simple. Seems to me like lots of guys playing weird games to avoid rejection maybe? Do I just chalk that up to insecure men or is there something I'm missing here?
Here is something that I haven't written about yet, but need to: men not only need to demonstrate their interest in you by overcoming their nerves and approaching. In addition, it is important to let them do that because they need to know that they did something exceptional to GET you. That, in and of itself, makes YOU exceptional to him. He knows that if he hadn't pushed through the difficulty to talk to you, you would have been gone forever; so he is already proud of his accomplishment, proud of YOU.
DeleteThe older I get the more I realize how important this is, and how many times my lack of interest in a girl has been created or amplified simply by the fact that she could have been ANY girl that night. Men want an EPISODE or STORY behind their encounter with a woman just as much as women do, because for both sexes, something worth telling a story about is something unique; and we all want something unique.
So, let him push through those fears, and don't lament the ones you lose because they weren't able to approach you due to nervousness; they aren't men enough yet for YOU to like them, but almost as importantly (if not more) they are not men enough yet for them to respect themselves.
Make yourself easy to get at your own risk...
The research is different than what Andrew suggests. Observation of approaches has shown in the past that women consistently initiate an approach with covert body language: eye contact, brushing the hair, parting of lips, smiling, etc.
Deletehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358459
The man does the _overt_ approach, but the covert enticement should occur first.
Andrew - Men who have to do stupid shit like that to make a relationship seem special or exciting will ultimately fail. It's inevitable. Understanding yourself and accepting who you are is more important than some fantasy obstacle you have to create to rationalize your way into a relationship.
DeleteAndrew, what if the timing sucks?, In terms of the approaching? I tried to approach my (shy) crush and talk to him (for now I'll just call him Batman). Yeah, I couldn't because coming face-to-face with him was distracting (when I had the perfect chances)and I had a crapload of tests/exams so I was too stressed to even talk to the guy.
DeleteTo add on, we would constantly bump into each other on campus (and stared at each other a-la-Twilight), but other than that I did not even get the chance to say "hi" the least. But I will point out that your advice in terms of keeping/maintaining eye contact for 3/4 seconds really worked (for Batman, I think). Because he hangs out with his friends near my lecture venues (which was something he never used to do before).
Thanks a lot,
A-
@Andrew - but if we do that, then the only ones who are ever "man enough" to approach us are usually cocky douchebags. How often do guys with good character (who happen to be a little nervous) do the approaching?
Delete"it is important to let them do that because they need to know that they did something exceptional to GET you. That, in and of itself, makes YOU exceptional to him. "
DeleteThat's crap. Consider an analogy of a moderately good cake. A man has to climb over a wall to get it. Conversely consider an excellent quality cake which he can walk in a straight line towards. There's no question which cake he's gonna go for.
The whole premise of 'The Rules' is faulty and ultimately geared simply to giving women power in the dating game, whilst dressing it up to make it seem as if men deep down need it structured this way 'for their own good'. The problem is this - man exerts most of the upfront effort, women either goes with the interaction or not. If ultimately successful (i.e. dating together) here is the equation - man exerts more effort for same result as the woman. Logically, what sort of return on investment does that represent? If you ask the same man to consider a financial investment on the same terms, how do you think he would react?
Ultimately power resides to those who exert least effort to command results. This is exactly the modern dating paradigm.
I understand the pressure and risk of approaching a woman at a bar, so why not approach a woman in a less public venue?
ReplyDeleteWhy NOT approach a woman in the grocery store, when she's pumping gas, at the book store, coffee shop, etc. etc.? That way if she does reject you the whole world isn't there to see. Plus, a woman is less likely to think you are just looking for a one night stand than if you approached her in a bar. And maybe the girl of your dreams is someone that never goes to bars anyway.
Maybe guys should view it as a job, you can't get the job if you don't apply. You can't get the girl if you don't try. I have NO respect for a man that doesn't have the balls to at least TRY.
And like J, I don't know any girl who said they met a guy who seemed perfect, but was boring, nice, plain, etc. and won't go out with them anymore. Heck, I know several girls who CONTINUE going out with guys long after they should dump him for FAR serious problems - like owing back child support, drinks too much, has bad credit, etc.
Plenty of my friends would be glad to date a guy whose worst problem was being "boring, nice, or plain."
Hey Melanie
DeleteI think its due to the "Christian Grey" syndrome and watching crap like The Notebook. I ask girls around at Varsity what type of men they are into and its always this response: "young businessman", "sporty/must dress well, be an alpha male/masculine. And other girls who are into "different" guys always go for hipsters/musicians. Fuck its frustrating, I'm not like that. Hell I have a crush on a guy who looks homeless, but a sweet guy. I doesn't bother me what men look like, although there should be boundaries. (i.e. I wouldn't date a man who are morbidly obese or anorexic).
What about age? How much older would you go before his age becomes a problem?
Delete10 years is my limit (but I'll only date someone 10 years older than me when I reach my late twenties), Personally, I think a 15-20 year gap is sort of creepy. And a turn-off for me.
Delete"Maybe guys should view it as a job, you can't get the job if you don't apply."
DeleteYou could say the reverse as it is women who ultimately value relationships more. But either way, how condescending - essentially viewing a man as an employee. I'm sure men will respond to that so positively.
Thanks for this rather humbling post. I am a bit worried that my standards are too high. Well basically I have started dating online and I think I have a case of FOMO (Fear of Missing Out). I've been talking to a few guys at once and the uncertainty is freaking me out. I know that talking to more than one person at a time online is part of the procedure but I can't help but feel insincere doing it, and it's emotionally draining keeping more than one plate spinning. Does anyone here know what I'm getting at?
ReplyDeleteBtw I wasn't sure where to post this but hope you guys can help.
I wouldn't worry about that. Rather, I would just set limits. For example, maybe after date number two if things are going well you then limit only seeing that one guy.
DeleteGetting really sick of the spellcasters.
ReplyDeleteYou're telling me... I'm actually a little impressed that they are so persistent. Some readers must be emailing them if they keep coming back. The spam filter never catches the comments and I'm getting sick of having to always delete them.
DeleteThese are the only people I would ever trust with my spell-casting anyways:
Deletehttp://24.media.tumblr.com/2631dfda5eb4b8804bea82c61334ce8a/tumblr_mkgwplKm861r2dxq0o5_r2_250.gif
I wonder if these spell-casters also have capes. And hats. And brooms. If so, I should investigate joining their number.
Maybe blocking any comments with the exact words "love spells" might help to reduce these nuisances?
DeleteIf you are on blogger you can go in under comments and set as spam, the system will remember
DeleteJust block comments using regular expressions(which is a programming technique to match up phrases with certain patterns) matching patterns like "love" then something , then "spell" proceeding something and "caster".
ReplyDeleteOr can hold comments like such suspended, so you can decide which of them can pass rather than which of them can be deleted, which is a white list for comments in such categories rather than a blacklist. Or can just filter them altogether. Either way.
Any web programmer with some reasonable experiences should be able to handle this. I am unfamiliar with wordpress or any blogging software(assuming you are using one of them. But there should be programmers who are.
I'm sorry, but you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Though generating patterns used to have a huge impact there are not algorithms out there which are freely open to others who wish to use them to read such comment blocking techniques. These "hacks" are now nowadays pretty much useless. The only ones it'll stop are the ones way behind in the game, such as yourself.
DeleteBest of luck, Grace.
I'm sorry, but you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Though generating patters used to have a huge impact, there are now algorithms out there which are freely open for others to use and who wish to use them to read such comment blocking techniques. These "hacks" are now nowadays pretty much obliterating any spam-blocking tactic there is and have rendered them pretty much useless except to those who are way behind in the game; such as yourself.
DeleteBest of luck, however, Grace.
And that was just for starters. Learn your sterf, lest you be run into the ground like all those pretty much like yourself eventually are.
DeleteAndrew, there was a great deal of vulnerability in this post. I think you shared something very important that many men probably are too ashamed of admitting.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Andrew. I think the more women can try to get in men's shoes to understand them the better they'll be able to make a few adjustments to better attract and keep men.
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew, I really like your analytical approach to dealing with relationships in general because I have a really bad case of social anxiety and it really helps bolster my courage to try to think of the situation from the man's point of view. I was wondering if a girl didn't want to get approached by strangers, are there any other ways a woman can get into a relationship? What advice would you give to really shy girls?
ReplyDeleteWhat it is like to be approached by men: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151898039465301.872401.694500300&type=1&l=85401f9433
ReplyDeleteJust stop approaching women altogether. Get to know people as friends first before you attempt to date them and have some values, for heaven's sake. You know? No? That's why women shoot you down over and over. You are just looking for sex if you operate in the way described in the article and you need to face it.
ReplyDeleteYou just gave the recipe for friendzone. Men who approach women as friends stay as friends. I am not interested in some guys pretending he just want to "hang out", listen to my worries and act like a gal pal. He is insincere and feminine. There is nothing valuable about it.
DeleteWomen want men who do want sex and see them sexually. They just don't want men who want ONLY that. Approaching them doesn't mean they only want that. Approaching is the only way to possible success. With an attractive non-slut anyway.
Sorry, but I can’t buy this.
ReplyDeleteThere are too many women who:
1) Claim to want confident guys, then
2) Get their rocks off destroying a guy’s confidence, and
3) Complain that they can’t find any confident guys.
It’s all crap.
Ironic, ain’t it???
the men they are looking for is the ones with a confidence so deep rooted, it can't be touched, let alone destroyed.
Deletewhen a man projects confidence (this is vastly different from showing off) he absolutely knows who he is, what he wants, and how to get it - without fear of failure or rejection.
women 'test' a man's confidence to see how much of a man he really is.
One female poster thinks she has the right to tell all men on the planet to "man the fuck up" and another that states she has " no respect for men who don't even try" . Such an insanely high amount of arrogance here. Who died and left the two of you lord and master of the male universe? Here's why men don't approach you its because of your wonderful attitudes. We can see this even from a distance and read you like comic books. We would never give you the satisfaction of an approach.
ReplyDeleteExactly. If you notice the 100 odd responses here, 5 actually acknowledge the difficulties of approaching, whilst the other 95 change the subject. tells you all you really need to know about women's general consideration for the male position.
DeleteAwesome tips
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if you can also check out the tips I wrote in my blog. Not to spam or anything but any form of exposure is good as you can support someone starting out in this blogosphere.http://www.uncrackedballs.com/2013/11/how-to-approach-girl.html