I have made this point before, but only briefly; and as simple as the point is, it warrants further explanation.
If a man goes out of his way to interact with you, he is interested in you romantically or sexually - at least to some degree. A lot of women don’t realize this, because when they approach a man (for example, to ask directions in the street), they don’t do so with romantic or sexual intention. They wrongly project their own lack of intention onto the men who approach them. They think “When I approach a man, I don’t have romantic or sexual motives; so this guy asking me for directions has no ulterior motives.” But they are wrong.
If you are skeptical about this, consider that the same phenomenon is manifested in men. Men always “get the wrong idea” when a woman responds to their texts, or engages them in conversation in a bar, or doesn't spit on them and walk off when they ask her for directions. The truth may be that the girl is just being polite, or that she genuinely believes the guy just needs directions, but the man projects his own intentions onto her. He thinks “When I talk to a woman even for casual reasons, it is because I like her. This woman is talking to me, so she must like me.”
Yes, of course, there are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a guy genuinely needs directions, or really is just talking to you to kill time at the bus station. But the point is that these exceptions are far rarer than you think. In fact, the exceptions are so rare that you are better off always assuming that men who approach you are interested than you are questioning it each time. In the rare instances that a man isn't interested, you have nothing to lose by assuming that he is; and the increased confidence you’ll have knowing that he is into you will help you to be your best self in his presence, which will attract him further.
If a man goes out of his way to interact with you, he is interested in you romantically or sexually - at least to some degree. A lot of women don’t realize this, because when they approach a man (for example, to ask directions in the street), they don’t do so with romantic or sexual intention. They wrongly project their own lack of intention onto the men who approach them. They think “When I approach a man, I don’t have romantic or sexual motives; so this guy asking me for directions has no ulterior motives.” But they are wrong.
If you are skeptical about this, consider that the same phenomenon is manifested in men. Men always “get the wrong idea” when a woman responds to their texts, or engages them in conversation in a bar, or doesn't spit on them and walk off when they ask her for directions. The truth may be that the girl is just being polite, or that she genuinely believes the guy just needs directions, but the man projects his own intentions onto her. He thinks “When I talk to a woman even for casual reasons, it is because I like her. This woman is talking to me, so she must like me.”
Yes, of course, there are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a guy genuinely needs directions, or really is just talking to you to kill time at the bus station. But the point is that these exceptions are far rarer than you think. In fact, the exceptions are so rare that you are better off always assuming that men who approach you are interested than you are questioning it each time. In the rare instances that a man isn't interested, you have nothing to lose by assuming that he is; and the increased confidence you’ll have knowing that he is into you will help you to be your best self in his presence, which will attract him further.
Related Posts
You mentioned 'fading out' in another post. Men often do this, but women do it too. It was said that it is not a polite way of handling things, but sometimes necessary.
ReplyDeleteDo you agree that it is the appropriate way to act for women who deal with men who are too shy to ask them out or believe they can do the entire 'seduction thing' without taking any risks?
This happens all the time. Guy stares at me in class, takes opportunities to talk to me, adds me on facebook and writes me there. He never explicitly asks me out but flirts and talks to me all the time. It is annoying because if I got a direct question to go out with him, I could say no. If I say I am not interested without having received an actual invitation, it seems presumptuous and I know that the response will be "I just think of you as a friend" or something like that.
Surely just not responding at all is the best way? Even though it will usually lead to the guy ignoring me and acting awkward...
So why are you writing him back and accepting him on facebook then? Why not just avoid him to begin with instead of giving him hope?
DeleteWhen you are in college, you have group work together, there will be a facebook group created for your work and it is common to exchange numbers to schedule group meetings. Same goes for work - there are situations where you will be forced to spend time together and have contact outside of work. Avoiding a facebook request, refusing to give out your number to male members of the group or turning your back on all males WILL cause you to become the "stuck up bitch" at school. So according to your theory, a girl has the choice of being the bitch/lacking in common decency or "leading them on".
DeleteIt shouldn't be my problem that some guys have no guts and consistently place themselves in the friendzone.
Young men are also prone to be rude due to their insecurities. If you assume they are interested and therefore avoid contact when you are not, they have no hesitations to claim that "this girl is full of herself". It is the most common defense mechanism - "I won't risk getting rejected so I'll approach without approaching. If she directly shuts me down I'll just pretend she was presumptuous, vain and stuck up".
Having a guy feel this way about you is not the end of the world if it's just him. If it's more, it's potentially a problem.
No, just don't talk to them unless it's project related.
DeleteReally, you're just mentioning the pretty-woman's dilemma, of being approached by men. They'll flirt and talk with you but unless they get some signs of interest they won't ask you out. That's just the price to pay. You can either reduce your looks (which I doubt you'd want to do) or just keep ignoring the guys you don't like while being as civil as needed to not be the "bitch of campus."
DeleteIn fact, most women face this. Nearly all women, unless they're really ugly, like 1's or 2's, have some attention from men and some of that is unwanted. Of course, the prettier a woman is the more she's likely to get.
Delete@ Marie
DeleteI know what you mean. I've opted to just accept the label of "bitchy/stuck up", in such situations. Despite the label, I consider being honest with men about my disinterest to be a plus, consequences be damned.
The easy way out is to just tell them about a guy you're seeing or went out with.
DeleteSassy, Marie, I agree with Hansolo. Telling them you're seeing someone works 100% of the time.
DeleteAnd be nice about it because that way you're still nice and it fully conveys your lack of interest. Plus you can still have him as a friend if that's what you want. Destroying relationships because of a lack of romantic interest doesn't seem like a good way to make friends. It's also a good professional skill to have; you have to be able to get along with people to be successful at work sometimes, and being able to be mature about some things helps you succeed. I disagree with the bitch approach because even though you might think it's a good thing, it can make you look bad when it comes to managing relationships.
@ Emily L
DeleteI'm glad to hear that telling them you're dating someone else works for you, but it hasn't for me. I've tried telling men that I'm seeing someone else, and it oftentimes has the opposite effect. It makes the men in question pursue me harder. Some ignore the fact that I've told them about dating someone else. Others see it as a challenge to attempt to steal me away from the other guy. Some have even been so bold as to say to my face "I don't care about your boyfriend". Even further still, some guys think I'm lying when I tell them, and it doesn't deter them.
Like I said before, I am nice to men, but I'm also extremely blunt. I just tell them that I'm not interested and go about my merry way. If a man wants to label me as a "bitch" because of that reason, that's on him. I don't have the time to sit around worrying about whether or not he'll be okay with my rejection. That's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Sassy, if the "seeing someone" doesn't work then one has to move on to more direct methods (or in your case you can just start there). I like the idea of being more sincere. If you don't like someone at all, either as a friend or romantically, then no need to interact at all, unless they're a work colleague or someone you have to deal with, then try and keep it civil.
DeleteIf you like someone as a friend but not romantically then say so. I think too often women will use the "let's just be friends" line but not even want to be friends to let him down easy and that's why it has the toxic sound to it it does. I've told women that I like them as a person but am not attracted to them enough to date them. I've also told them I liked them as a person and was sexually attracted but didn't want to be their bf. It's surprised me that several women have gone ahead with having sex anyway, though from a Machiavellian POV if as a man you just want to get laid, pretending to want a relationship really works like a charm because if the woman is attracted she's not going to do a proper due diligence to see if the man really means it. I'm not condoning men lying and I tend to be on the blunt side myself but simply pointing out what "works" and that women need to be aware of it. I think a lot of women are aware of that but they don't put in enough effort to see if the guy is sincere or not.
There are some outright liars but most guys that aren't interested in an LTR with the woman and just want sex will just hope she doesn't bring up the topic and if she does in a direct way, asking if he's in it for the long run and he's not will not give a convincing answer or outright confess that he's not.
"If you like someone as a friend but not romantically then say so."
DeleteThat implies that there is a suggestion to say "no" to. Often there is not. A guy will just keep writing, first about work/school related stuff, and then the end of the message will go "anyway, hows it going?". There is nothing to say "no" to as there is no clear invitation or suggestion, so the only option is usually to ignore (i.e. become the "bitch").
I have never told anyone "let's be friends" - everybody knows that's ridiculous. But men choose to place themselves in the middle ground all the time because they want contact, yet they don't want clear rejection.
To be more precise - for "let's be friends" to send a clear message, the guy has to have some experience. Many young guys do not.
DeleteEven older ones. There is a post on this blog claiming that men fall in love right away, whereas women can develop feelings over time/for a friend. It has never happened to me, nor my friends. The fact that adult men believe this, confirms why men remain in the friendzone and genuinely hope it will develop into something more.
Marie
Delete"men remain in the friendzone and genuinely hope it will develop into something more"
Yes I cringe at those men too – they’re so, um, pathetic! The friendzone is the WORST place to be when trying to sleep with a woman. When will those guys get some self-respect and learn that to sleep with a woman she has to respect him as an independent man who has the guts to ask her out, and then move on promptly if knocked back.
The worst possible thing a woman could say to me is: “you’re such a great friend, you’re like my brother”.
Andrew - I think you're right about there being exceptions, but i think it's the other way round. i'm an attractive girl, and in the course of being social, working, and even shopping at the grocery store, men approach me all the time. if i'm hosting a party, men will talk to me. if i'm giving a presentation for work, men will talk to me after. if i'm at the grocery store, men say hi to me. even the security guard talks to me because i go to the same grocery store. men talk to me all the time, and i never assume they are interested in me. i think men should also avoid making fools of themselves by assuming that the mere mustering up of courage to engage in social interaction by having a conversation, worse asking for directions, is sufficient to proof to a woman that a man is interested.
ReplyDeleteYes, i see (and like) your clever distinction that making the assumption he's interested results in putting one's best foot forward. i guess that helps people with low self-esteem or little confidence. but it also forecloses the possibility that men and women can simply be friends. I believe that men and women can be friends, but I've noticed an interesting phenomenon where some women get psychotically jealous when their boyfriends have female friends. I've observed women who are easily threatened like that then resorting to trying to cut men off from their friends by turning the men against their friends to isolate the men. That's just emotionally unhealthy not to mention manipulative of such women. And I'm not sure how men tend to not see through that kind of manipulation, but that's another story.
With this post, I kind of disagree with you, but unfortunately, I think you're right. That's only because I recently encountered a sticky situation I had to work my way out of where a guy I was friends with turned out to be more interested that I thought. I nipped his interested and we're still friends, but it took some girl savvy. In other instances, I've had guys throw themselves at me and not take the necessary steps to seal the deal and I have not assumed their interest.
There are variables of shyness, among others, but hanging out with a woman just because you want to fuck her, while probably a good thing, depending on the circumstances, doesn't sound as equally good when a guy will not hang out with a woman unless he's going to get laid. He'll be a lonely guy and she'll end up spreading her legs and any Tom, Dick, and Harry. Lord knows we don't want that to happen. Do we?
I think it's emotionally healthy to be friends with men, unless you can prove me wrong.
The men who talk to you at the grocery store and at your work all want to have sex with you if only you were willing. They are all interested in you and attracted to you BUT they arent pursuing you because there are DOUBTS in their head regarding your response, the consequences and their own self worth etc.
DeleteIf men had the ability to magically know that a woman will NEVER have sex with him, we would see a lot less friendships between men and women.
Even the security guard at the grocery store somewhere at the back of his mind thinks his niceness might lead to something more. Men who are very realistic and consciously aware that a woman will only despise his sexuality will not bother going out of their way to be nice to random women unless they are sure there is a chance.
Friendships between men and women do happen. But they grow naturally over time due to being in the same proximity for a long time and having shared activities, goals and interests. But Men DONT PURSUE friendships with women.
Emily L
DeleteSomething tells me that women wouldn't want to live in the world where men had the ability to know if a woman would never have sex with him, right from the start.
I agree with the Skeptic above me. Generally speaking, I don't believe that men and women can be friends except in the rare cases where both people are not physically/ sexually attracted to one another. On the same note, generally speaking, it's far more common for women to not be attracted to most men, while men can be physically/sexually attracted to most women.
DeleteI'm a woman who is considered very attractive by mainstream standards, and I can tell you for a fact that I don't have any male "friends". I have only potential romantic interests or acquaintances. I have never had a straight male spend any significant amount of time in my presence without eventually trying to ask for more romantically/sexually at some point. I recently dealt with a guy who, even after I told him that I don't believe that men and women can be friends, swore to me that he only wanted to be friends. This guy even went so far as to issue a challenge that he could be my friend for two months without asking for anything else sexually/romantically. This guy ended up cracking after only a month when he confessed to having feelings for me. Once again, it only took him a month of pretending to be my friend before he revealed his true intentions. I found it thoroughly predictable.
I know the sentiment may bother you Emily, but I would say that Andrew's words are correct. Unless you surround yourself with gay men, or straight men who have absolutely no physical/sexual attraction to you whatsoever (this is rare, especially if you work to maintain/improve your physical attractiveness), having male "friends" is nearly impossible.
I personally have many women that I'm friends with. Whether I want to have sex with them is independent of that, namely, if they are attractive enough then I probably would want to but assuming I enjoy them enough as people and friends and no sex is on the table then I'll just be friends, though I would act on it if the opportunity arose. Some of the hottest women I've had sex with came about by being friends first and just talking here and there and then finally the opportunity arose: one became single and another started thinking it was time to look for a man.
DeleteThe important thing for men is not to be a needy orbiter of the women they like. Rather, be a strong, interesting, attractive man (as much as possible) and engage with her from that strong framework rather than as a pussy beggar.
Men who get too butthurt because the woman isn't interested are too ego-invested in the outcome (and I've been there and done that too) and turn off the woman. Of course, not all friendships or acquaintances will pan out but some of them can and will and so by maintaining contact from a strong frame you keep those opportunities alive and you can also meet her friends and you come with the friend kind of preselection (not as strong as romantic preselection) and will be seen as less dangerous, which is one hurdle men nearly always have to overcome with new women.
Basically, you're seen as part of the tribe instead of a risky outsider. Just keep a strong, non-begging frame and sooner or later one or some of those women in the "tribe" of friends will start to find you interesting.
Hey HanSolo. This is Sassy6519, just in case you didn't know.
DeleteAnyway, I think what you have stated is the crux of the issue, and the point at which most of the confusion is occurring.
For men, being "friends" with a woman often entails underlying attraction, which the men will happily act upon if given the opportunity. This is what confuses women, I'd say, because that type of friendship is uncommon/foreign for us. I don't know if my experiences are common for other women, but trying to befriend someone that I am attracted to seems pointless. If I were in the habit of having male friends, the only men I would ever consider being friends with are men that I'm not attracted to. With that in mind, it would be easy to see how women would project their feelings onto men about the subject, and it's easy to see why women are often dismayed/alarmed whenever their male "friends" ask for things sexually/romantically. Men asking their female "friends" for more romantically/sexually comes across as sneaky, conniving, opportunistic, dishonest, and devious. Suddenly, a person that we have never viewed in a romantic/sexual light is asking for more, and it's disturbing.
This is why I cut men off at the pass. I'm not naive, and I don't fancy myself to be an idealist. I deal with men as they are, not as I would like them to be. I've learned through countless experiences that men don't want to be my friend. I at one point thought that trying to befriend men who were already in relationships would be a safe bet, but I was quickly proven wrong. I can't say I'm entirely shocked at just how quickly some men are willing to forsake their partners when they are presented with the chance of spending time with another woman, friend or otherwise. At this point, I just consider any man who even utters "Let's be friends" around me to be highly suspicious individuals.
Hey Sassy, how's it going?
DeleteGood to hear both your and the general female perception of things, and that more often than not a woman will not have romantic/sexual feelings towards men she's just friends with, though sometimes she will. I've had women that were friends but had feelings for me too. But I definitely think that with men being more wired to bang quickly and widely that if attraction is possible with a woman that he'll be feeling it to some extent, large or small, depending on how much he clamps it down.
I think that if women knew that most men are basically going to feel some attraction if the woman is attractive to them then they can know that that's reality and either accept the men will be attracted and possibly be friends as well, or just feigning friendship. In cases where the woman isn't attractive to the man then I guess she can breath easy.
Sassy, HanSolo,
DeleteI've tried figuring this out but haven't. Depending on the guy, sometimes it's good to be friends with a guy before determining whether you want to date him. I've learned a lot about men by seeing them interact with their friends. I guess this is quasi-dating. In other instances where I have no romantic interest, I will not be flirty, no kissing, nothing that could possibly lead a guy to think I'm interested. Nothing ever goes beyond the friend zone. In one particular instance, I was quite confused about what was going on in a relationship. But at all times, I'm nice and treat guys like I do all of my friends (polite, send birthday greetings/, do drinks from time to time, play on sports teams, etc). But there always are sticky situations that come about (e.g., the guy's friends become interested in you). I guess the general rule is that there probably is no general rule!
I also am more convinced that sex is a motivating factor for men to make a significant number of decisions. I never wanted to believe this, but in my next relationship, I'm going to do more of the sexy/flirty thing in the early stages of dating the guy, rather than waiting for him to make the sex moves....
Men have other reasons to be nice to women and PEOPLE in general besides sex. Being nice to customers is just good service. Perhaps unconsciously, we as humans are kinder to attractive people because of the effect they have on us, but we may still experience it as "just doing my job" or "I'm just a nice person". Why would some men be nice to old ladies or small children or other men? Maybe they are simply kind? Maybe it benefits them in another way (financially, reputation, etc). Why go out of their way to speak to such people? Perhaps because they just like talking to people? Not everyone has a "what's in it for me" agenda when they engage in conversation with others.
DeleteI don't disagree with the main idea of this blog post, but this particular comment above that men are only nice to women they don't know yet in some far-off hope of sex is silly. People can have many motivating factors for such things.
So would you say a man and a woman can't be good friends without the man wanting a sexual and/or romantic relationship? (Of course there are always exceptions)
ReplyDeleteIf the man is hotter than the woman then he can be friends without wanting a sexual and/or romantic relationship.
DeleteIf the woman is hotter than the man then he will ALWAYS secretly hope for a shot. No exceptions.
Conclusion: If you want platonic guy friends ensure that they are much hotter than you.
Two problems with this though:
1)it will be difficult to convince guys who are hotter than you to have anything to do with you (unless you were in the same class etc.) 2)Will you secretly hope for a shot with your hot male friend? My personal experience says yes you will.
Emily L:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/men-cant-be-friends-with-attractive-women-the-science/
Anna,
ReplyDeleteNo, men and women can't be good friends. Guys, deep down, will want to have sex with you no matter how 'good' the friendship is.
You know what I've never wanted to do with my guy friends? Have sex with them, that's what. It's kind of amazing that women don't seem to get this, but that's partly due to sneaky male behavior and feigning friendship.
I disagree that all men and women can't be good friends. For those that can't, well, they can't. But there are many that can. As I said above, I can be friends with women. Now that doesn't mean I won't want to have sex with many of those I find attractive. But I make it work. But I don't make my friendship contingent on eventually getting the pussy. They're independent factors to me. If I like the woman as a person I'll be friends with her. I have female friends that range the whole spectrum of looks from very hot to morbidly obese.
DeleteI find the attractive ones attractive and am sexually attracted. I can keep that in check when needed (which is most of the time) and just enjoy them as friends. But if the opportunity for sex arises, which it sometimes does, then sex happens. Afterwards, I'm still willing to be friends whether it was just a fling or an attempt at a relationship. Some women are capable of staying friends after sex even though no more sex or attempts at a reln are coming and others are not.
Andrew has a post about men and women never being able to be just friends. I think in an ideal world women and men CAN be friends, but I think things like immaturity get in the way easily. But I think the women can't be friends thing with men is a result of insecure women who are easily threatened at the sight of another woman. I think it's a result of jaded thinking and manipulation that I've observed in many many women rather than men.
DeleteAll I know is that I am friends with women. Now the "just" part would mean no sexual attraction. I certainly have some female friends like that where I'm not attracted in the slightest. I think that it's easier for women to not have sexual interest in men than vice versa and so there are cases where there is no sexual interest on either side.
DeleteTo the broader point, though, I am both friends with and attracted to many women and I just keep the little head under control in the situations where the woman isn't interested or it wouldn't be appropriate to pursue anything, such as if I'm in a reln or she is.
Sorry Han, the fact that you admit be sexually attracted to many of your female 'friends' negates this idea entirely. I'm surprised someone as intelligent as yourself can't see that. The fact that I've NEVER thought about male friends in a sexual way, and you most likely haven't either, provides at least one example of this being a different kind of friendship.
DeleteObviously you're saying that sexual attraction and friendship are mutually exclusive. I totally disagree. But it comes down to what your definition of friend is. I think we can both agree that friendship would mean you like to hang out with someone, like them, have some concern for them, will help them out from time to time, listen to them, share your thoughts with them, so on.
DeleteNow add sexual attraction to that. Does that suddenly annihilate all of the above? It can certainly complicate things. Now if you want to define friendship as the above without any sexual attraction then so be it. But that is not how I define friendship. For me, as long as my definition above is met then people are friends. The sexual attraction part is independent of that. Now it's certainly the case that two people that are friends according to my definition are not friends without sexual attraction if there is attraction.
Now there certainly are cases where the attraction (usually by the man) is the main thing and he'll just pretend to be a friend to try and get laid but that's not what I'm talking about.
A man can control his thoughts and urges and not act on the attraction. Or he can act on it. But either way that doesn't need to destroy or negate them liking to hang out, helping each other out, in other words being friends.
Andrew, forgive the self-promotion but I think this article I wrote about the recent plummeting in marriage rates is a highly important message for the female readers here.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.justfourguys.com/marriage-rates-plummet-projection-of-never-married-rates-to-2017/
Basically, the gist of the message is that women should try to get married during their 20's if they are ever hoping to because the marriage rates for older cohorts has declined a lot. Of course, women can and do get married after 30 but the odds are the best earlier than that.
For example, during the early 2000's, 30-34 y/o never-married white women in the US had a 1/3 chance of getting married in the next five years (still enough time to have a baby after getting married) but by 2007 it had dropped to 1 in 6. That's the latest year available since you have to have the 5-years-later data of 2012 in order to see how many married in those 5 years.
The number of 35-39 y/o white never-married women had even lower rates of marrying within the next 5 years.
I also made some reasonable assumptions about what the marriage rates might do in the coming years out to 2017 and calculated what the never-married levels would be.
Basically, I found that:
-In 2000, only about 1 in 3 25-29 y/o white women were never-married. By 2017, it would be nearly 3 out of 5 if the decline in marriage rates continues as I’ve hypothesized.
-The 30-34 y/o rate would rise from about 1 in 6 to 1 in 3.
-For 35-39, it would rise from 1 in 9 to more than 1 in 5.
-For 40-44, it would rise from 1 in 12 to 1 in 7.
(Note: I only analyzed white women because I used an underlying data compilation on white women that was readily available. The same could be done for other races/ethnicities but would require gathering all the underlying data first, something I haven't had time to do.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHi Emily. Yes, they are on white non-hisp. women. I'll soon be doing a post on marriage levels of college-educated vs non-college-educated of all races. At Dalrock's post that I link to and based my work on, he gives some less-detailed figures looking at each race/ethn.
DeleteI think that setting pro-active goals that will help you get married will be helpful. Examples, and not specific to you since I don't know if you have room to improve but most people do, would be:
A) Improve your value
1) Maximize looks (weight, skin, style, hair, etc., without getting neurotic about it)
2) Improve Personality (feminine charm, kindness, no bitchiness, be more sensual, do nice things for a deserving man)
B) Be realistic about the man you can get to commit:
3) Realize the level of man that will commit to you and be excited about you. This will be a lower level than you can get to have casual sex with you. Obviously you'll get a better man after you do 1 and 2. There may be cases where a woman is too picky and isn't attracted to any of the men that would want to marry her. In this case the woman can choose to stay unmarried or can work on not being so picky and appreciating and becoming attracted to other things that the men have.
C) Market Yourself
4) Talk to lots of men. Make friends. Try online dating. And so on. Maybe you can be a more conversational and friendly and even flirty in your social circle and at work.
That's only 4 but lots to work on.
As to your original question of putting a time limit on it, I would do that so strictly because you don't want to just settle for anyone as the 2 years is coming to a close. However, the hard reality of having to settle (and learn to be pretty happy) or stay single forever might appear at some point where you'd then need to decide you're just going to give yourself a year or two to find a great guy, after which you might settle for one of the decent but not great guys that does want to marry you.
But don't wait too long since looks start to decrease at some point and then you're fighting an outgoing tide.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
Emily, notice how what I said above is very similar to the marketing 4 P's:
DeleteProduct, price, promotion, and place
Product would be A above, improve your value or "product".
Price would be B, what level or "value" of man you are demanding in exchange.
Promotion and Place lumped together would be C, what I called marketing yourself.
Here's a link on the 4 P's http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newSTR_94.htm
Hansolo-Thanks! I think 1 and 4 are areas I can work on most. I never do casual sex so 3 is somewhat of a foreign concept for me. I'll have to give that some thought. I'm horrible at marketing. In fact, when I've dated, I was most impressed by men who approached me without me doing much work. When a guy approaches me, the way I determine whether I'd be interested in them is asking myself one question: would i want to have this guy's children. If the answer is no, I'll be nice (maybe he has guy friends I can date, or maybe he could be a good friend) and give no further thought to him as a potential. If the answer is yes or maybe, I try to narrow him down to a yes. A guy would have to completely blow my mind for me to go after him. But I think marketing is where I fail. #1 can always be improved.
DeleteHey Hansolo!
DeleteI have a question. Out of all the white women, what percentage of them become NMWW by 30? Also how many of these women who are never married actually want to be married? I remember looking up marriage statistics and remember reading a study that claimed that overall only 17 percent of all women are never married by 30. Sorry that I couldn't link the reference.
That's a pretty low never-married percentage rate when accounting for the low marriage rate in blacks.
My point is if the NMWW is the minority, why should we care?
Never mind my question. I just found my answer. I misread the statistics the first round. NMWW by 30 and 35 seems to be a minority in the population with 25.1 and 15.4 percent. Should women in general be worried?
Deletesony26, the reason it's of interest is because it's rising rapidly and by 2017 those numbers will be up to about 33% for WW 30-34 y/o and 20% for WW 35-39 y/o. Also, the rates of getting married in the next 5 years are much lower for women in those age ranges.
DeleteNo whether you should care is up to your preference but data shows that good marriages are beneficial to those in them, the kids born in them and to society in general.
The other reason to care is because sometimes the notion is often held that women can work and play until 30 and then easily find someone to marry. However, the stats show that that's not the case. So, basically, a woman in her early 20's should think hard about what she wants and plan accordingly. Of course, women do marry after 30 but the rate seems to be dropping and with the rate at which 20-something women are putting it off too there will be a big pile-up of never-married women.
"The other reason to care is because sometimes the notion is often held that women can work and play until 30 and then easily find someone to marry."
DeleteHere is the thing, these statistics don't tell you why these women are never married. What percentage of the women over 30 who want to get married do actually get married? It pretty presumptuous to assume that all of them do. I can believe that a good 10 percent of the female population don't want marriage. It's not hard to with recent globalized world and the ever expanding dating pool making it harder to settle with one person.
Using Occam's Razor, if a woman is not marriage material in her 30's most likely she wasn't marriage material in her 20's.
Some men are under the assumption that women in their 20's get a marriage proposal weekly. It just doesn't happen that easily. Scaring women that they need to settle when they are young is a recipe for divorce. It better that they stay single and regret it. It will only hurt themselves. Divorcing their husband with children later on hurts a lot more people.
sony, it's a good point that the stats don't get into the why, they simply report what happened. So, no doubt, some % of the women don't want to get married. I don't know who was assuming they all want to. You are the one making the presumption that I was assuming that when I've never said all women want to marry.
DeleteAs to assuming a woman who is not marriage material in her 30's wasn't such in her 20's ignores what many men want. Looks and fertility are important to a good many men and women are at their heights in their 20's, thus making them more desirable to marry.
No one is scaring women to settle. Rather, I was simply pointing out the stats are in conflict with the feminist narrative that marriage to attractive men is readily available to women in their 30's and so women have no need to worry.
And you're using a scare tactic yourself by saying that women just need to settle when young. The fact of the matter is that women have the most power of attraction in their early 20's and so that is when they are least likely to need to settle. That's when they can get the most attractive and good-character man, if they choose well. I'm giving women facts with my message and that empowers them. I tell women to choose wisely so that it won't end in divorce. If a woman is a 7 at 25 but only a 6 or 6.5 at 35 then she has less power at 35 and a smaller pool to choose from. When she's at the height of her attractiveness she has more men to choose from and can thus more easily find a man that is both attractive to her and has good character so that things will NOT end in divorce, thus sparing herself, her children and her husband from the pain of divorce.
You make some good points there HanSolo – the problem is young women don’t know how to wield their power correctly – and by the time they learn how to use it well they begin to lose it! Catch 22. In that way it’s easier for men – we gain our power gradually, always aware of how helpless we felt when we had no power at all. Women have to face the same process in reverse – it must feel awful to lose the power that they once had.
DeleteEmily
“If I were to pick one man I’d want to spend the rest of life with, it would be the one that now hates me”
Why on earth would you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who hates you! And why are you confining yourself to just two men, neither of whom seem particularly interested? There must be tens of millions of men who could make a suitable partner – surely one of them would be a better bet?
Sony26
“It better that they (women) stay single and regret it”
I agree. There is nothing wrong with being single, and/or remaining single for life. I think women are unfairly stigmatized if they are single beyond a certain age. The problem isn’t that women aren’t getting married, rather that too many get married when they aren’t ready, and for the wrong reason: fear of missing the boat. As you say these women (and men) are guaranteed to be part of the divorce statistics.
My assumption that you were assuming all women want to marry came from the fact that you were claiming that only 1 out of 6 women in the 30-34 y/o range will get married and accounted no other variables besides the fact they were white. Then your website proceeded to claim that women should marry in their 20's if they want to marry at all using the statistics to back up it up.
DeleteIf these statistics were not meant to be used in a manner to scare willing women into believing that they have a lower chance of getting married after 30 than what is the point of them?
I don't disagree that women are physically the most attractive in their 20's. But looking good can only guarantee that a man will put his dick in them. How many of these over 30 NMWW been proposed to? Did they really purposely avoided marriage and shot down several marriage proposes? How do you know whether these women wanted to get married in their 20's and just so happens no man asked them?
This is where Occam's Razor come in. Which one is the simplest explanation without making the most unverifiable assumptions.
- Most women get married in there 20's. The ones left over are the undesirable ones or didn't want to get married at all.
- Most women get married in there 20's. The ones left over didn't want marriage in their 20's but then changed their minds in their 30's.
Which one makes more sense?
Women who marry young divorce more than women who marry when they are older. I already know the theory about how women bail out of marriage to hunt down a better catch when they are still attractive hence why divorce rates are high. If this is true than I would rather have them stay single.
BTW I'm not ashamed of using scare tactics to force women to think about the ramifications of their actions. Women need to think about whether they are doing the right thing by settling with a man that they are not attracted to and how a decision like that will affect their future children's lives.
DeleteWow, so timely. I've recently been realizing that I've often made the same mistake as these women—I'm often oblivious to flirting.
ReplyDeleteNow that I'm trying to become less oblivious, I think I have been approached by a guy in the last week. He made the first move to talk to me, contacted me online, and set up the first couple of meetings.
When we see each other, he acts in a way that I would call "chivalrous," and that on most American men I would read as romantic—because guys where I come from just don't do these things for platonic female friends (insisting on paying, offering to carry my bag, holding his umbrella over me, opening doors).
However, he's not American—he was born and raised in Romania, which makes me unsure how to read the chivalry. I'm not sure he's intentionally being romantic, or whether it's just a cultural difference in manners. We have had some very good conversations that gradually moved from academic to more personal subjects, and I would like to date him. Any thoughts on reading someone's signals when there's a cultural divide?
Hi Ri, I happen to be from Romania. Chivalry is still around here, some men are manly enough to practice it. Romanian men tend to be either assholes, either shy with good manners. I suppose you met the latter. Good luck!
DeletePS: I dated an american guy and it was no different than dating romanian guys so....we are humans after all
My story is pretty serious... I am not gonna make it too long. I really want your oppinion.
ReplyDeleteI met him 6 months ago, fell head over heals. Both of us. Two weeks into the relationship he asked me to go on a 10 day trip to Thailand. After that I moved in with him. It was amazing.
When we met I was in a bad stage in life, no job, no flat, did not speak to my best friends etc. So, in a way he saved me. He gave me a roof over my head, got me job (a great one I love), helped me reconcile with my best friends and spoiled me with holidays, dinners and presents.
I was in heaven, he was the best man I met. I am Mediterranean, I say what I think, I get impulsive, I cool off. What would be a discussion, finding a solution would be for him a fight he needs three days to get over. He would tell me how it hurt him...
Last week we broke up in the most traumatic way. On Wednesday night I came home, he was not home, we did not speak much during the day. I call him, he does not respond but sends me a message immediately saying: "hi baby, how are you? missed your call. give me a kiss". I start freaking out because he did not pick or call back. All turns into a huge mess of shouting, not picking up the phone, me hanging up. Me locking the door, sending him a picture of it and telling him not to come home. By 200% this was the worst fight we had...
He stayed at a hotel, I told him not to at the end and that he is risking us but he did not listen.
The next morning he rushed into the flat, put £500 into an envelope, put it in my luggage and told me he is kicking me out and I have until 12pm to leave his flat. That he has done everything for me and I am a selfish bitch. That he has no feelings for me and wants me out of his life.
He leaves and I am crashed and can't move from the floor. The next day we were supposed to go to Spain for the weekend. The day before he woke up saying he can't wait to spend the weekend with me at the beach and a day later he never wants to see me again.
It does not stop there. I took 65 painkillers and told him that. He came home with the police, calling an ambulance. He cried so much that he could not breath, speak, he was shaking. I could not look him in the eyes and he did not come to the hospital. He said he couldn't, his best friend from high school killed himself.
I was fine. My friends were there. The next day I packed my things, left my keys on the table with a letter apologizing. A day later he texted me saying he does not want to speak for a couple of weeks until all is settled and needs time and space for himself. If he needed 3 days to recover after a little fight, how long was this one gonna be?!
Two days later I could not resist and told him how I miss him and how I don't understand. He basically said it was all my fault, he made his decision even it is hard, it is his choice.
Another two days later I asked him if he wants to say a proper goodbye. He said yes, but not now, in a couple of weeks. I am not even sure he means it.
He always told me he wants me to be independent. Now, I am getting my own flat and my job is going well and keeping me busy. I want to see if we have another chance but he would not speak to me.... I wish I could turn back time but I can't.
I need your advice.
Thank you.
@ Anonymous 2:05 am (Part 1)
DeleteWow, where should I begin?
I'm blunt, and I don't sugarcoat things, so what I say to you may not come in a frilly package. Nonetheless, I definitely think that these are things that you need to hear.
1. You and your ex-boyfriend sound like rather impulsive people. You've only known him for 6 months, yet you moved in with him and let him support you for awhile, and he agreed to all of this. Pardon me when I say that the scenario sounds like a recipe for disaster, which it clearly has become. Your first mistake was jumping headfirst into the relationship so quickly. That is the mistake of both you and your ex-boyfriend. You rushed into the relationship too quickly, and he allowed it/condoned it. Honestly, you sounded like an utter mess before he met you. You had no job, no flat, practically no friends, and no security. He clearly had the impulse to save a "damsel in distress", which is rather impulsive and unwise. One thing I know about impulsive decisions is that people tend to realize their mistakes later on. From what you have described, it sounds like your ex-boyfriend has finally realized that he made a mistake in "shacking up" with you. Hindsight is indeed a bitch, and it seems to me that he has come to the decision that your relationship is not something that he wants.
2. According to you, he stated that you are a selfish bitch, he no longer has feelings for you, and he wants you out of his life. Would you agree with his assessment of you? Have you acted like a selfish bitch towards him? Have you expressed gratitude towards his efforts to support you, emotionally and financially, or did you take his actions for granted? I'm actually not surprised that he said the things he said to you, especially considering one action that you described. In the middle of your last fight with him, you actually had the audacity to send him a picture of his locked door and told him not to come home. You do realize that you are a guest in HIS HOME, right? That is not your place. He let you live with him. Locking him out of HIS OWN HOME is a bitchy move, in my opinion. He decided to let you live with him out of the graciousness of his own heart, foolishly (in my opinion), yet you have the nerve to try to keep him from entering his own place. My senses tell me that if you had the gall to pull that stunt, you've probably pulled other entitled/spoiled antics like that throughout the course of the relationship.
3. As icing on the cake, you decided to take 65 painkillers after learning that he no longer wanted to be with you/wanted you to move out. You do realize that such an action made you appear highly unstable/potentially psychotic, right? You took the break up so badly that you decided to down a bottle of painkillers. That is a huge red flag. That action was likely another strike against you, doubly so because you said that his former best friend committed suicide. This entire situation sounds extremely unhealthy.
@ Anonymous 2:05 am (Part 2)
Delete4. Finally, after he has requested that you give him some time and space numerous times during the break up, you have still been contacting him. You've been texting him, telling him that you miss him and prodding him into saying a "proper goodbye" to you. What part of the fact that he needs SPACE and TIME do you not understand? You aren't giving him the things that he needs right now. You have to understand that this entire experience/scenario has been traumatic to him as well, not only you. When you keep contacting him, it is pushing him further and further away from you. Put the phone down, and walk away. Let him get back in contact with you IF and WHEN he decides that he wants to talk with you again. Prodding him into talking with you prematurely won't help you.
As I said earlier, this relationship seems to have been founded on shaky ground from the very beginning. As the saying goes "The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long". You both jumped into a relationship at light speed, before you really knew much about each other, and before true compatibility could be established. From how you have described things, it seems like he is having serious second thoughts about the relationship, which is his right to do. You have to accept the fact that he possibly no longer wants to be with you. The only thing you should do at this point and time is live your life and focus on other things. He needs TIME and SPACE away from you. Let him have it. Ultimately, he needs to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to continue a relationship with you. You can't force his decision on this, and you also can't fall to pieces at the possibility that the relationship may end. You can't pull another painkiller stunt and expect him to take you seriously. Let him make his own choice in the matter. Also, understand that he has the right to reconsider the value of your relationship. He may have realized that, ultimately, your relationship is not something that he wants. As I said before, impulsivity in relationships can cause problems, and hindsight is a bitch. What you need to do is leave him alone right now, and interact with him again only if he wants to interact with you.
@Anonymous August 31, 2013 at 2:05 AM
DeleteI think the main problem with your relationship with your ex-bf is that, the relationship was not *equal* to begin with in the first place.
You had no job, no flat, no friends when you met him. After he helped you in all these, you kinda had a debt to him.
If no such debt exists, then I think it's perfectly normal for you to be upset with him when he did not *explain* himself nor did he return the calls when he did not get back at night to home. A man who cares about you would explain himself to you. He may not have done anything shitty at night outside home, but what if?
What complicates things, is that you kinda owe debts to him by letting him help you in putting all your shits together. In that case, it makes you kinda immoral to leave him right after he helped you. Especially in your case, he did not provoke the break-up, you kinda did provoking things to end it instead. Although the deep reason may be that, he no longer cared about you, kinda got tired of time with you, so he did not care about explaining himself to you any more. If my dad skips a night at home without explaining to my mother or without returning my mother's call, my mother would not let it pass lightly either -- if my dad does not care and the fights upgrades, I believe my mother can divorce him just on that ground too -- but my dad cares, so he would explain himself after skipping nights at home.
However, you were having a very unequal relationship, since he helped you out of your messy life. BUT, would this automatically grant him with the rights to treat you badly?
Honestly speaking, I think a girl's most eligible youth of time is way more important than getting away with a job. Maybe he did not lose much by introducing a job to you. But you lost precious time of 6 months as a young girl which is worse. It's not worthy of it.
My suggestion is, you may find a way to compensate him, by helping him back in other ways. After that you will no longer owe him in his help to you. On the other hand, receiving helps does not mean the help receiver is subjected to disrespectful treatment. If a man does not explain to you about his suspicious nights while he tries to help you, do not tolerate it. Pay back the debt by helping him back. At the same time, you deserve to be treated well in a relationship and do not lower the boundary on which terms you can accept a relationship.
Others may not even think that you owe him anything at all.
DeleteBecause a girl's years is more important than a man's. So it makes sense for a man to do things for the girl during dates without commitments. If things do not work, not leading to commitments, then the girl's loss in time and youth can be kinda compensated by the gifts the man sends, the dinner the man buys etc etc.
Even that, I still think a girl's youth is more valuable than a job or some dinner, or any gifts.
On that ground, you do not even need to think that you owe him anything. But in case you want to buy peace in your mind and shut up the mouths of other people around, then try to help him back for his help to you early on, after that you still have the rights to ask a man to go fuck himself if he treats you badly (such as late time in dates, such as unexplained nights away from you etc. etc.)
Wow.
DeleteYour sense of entitlement is amazing.
I think he realized he made a mistake by letting you into his life and doing so much for you. He realized that it was very one sided with him bringing a lot more value to the relationship than you. In the end all he gets is your sense of entitlement and ungratefulness.
This man can go to Thailand all by himself and have women literally worshiping him for doing a fraction of what he did for you.
I am curious about how the two of you compare to each other looks wise. Normally, a good looking desirable man doesnt need to do all this to obtain women's love and companionship. Is he much older?
@Skeptic
DeleteI do not agree with what you said, Skeptic.
If a man helps a girlfriend, it does NOT give him the entitlement to treat the girl as dusts.
Just because he helped her does not mean she should be his slave. Normally, if a man does NOT get back home at night he should explain himself well, otherwise, letting him continue being a bf is a sign of having very very weak boundaries on the woman's side.
I do not think the girl needs to let it fuck up so much. But if she wants to buy peace on her mind, she can try to pay back him in other ways(such as doing job for him for free, such as finding him a job too? etc etc.) After that they would be even.
The moral of the story is NOT to accept help from a man unless the man is willing for commitment too. Otherwise the girl would not know how to pay back (whether to hang in the dead end relationship longer which is unwise? or to cut off someone who does not care yet who just helped you so so much?)
@Skeptic
Delete"This man can go to Thailand all by himself and have women literally worshiping him for doing a fraction of what he did for you."
That is pure nonsense. Even if Thailand is poorer in economics, it does NOT mean that the girls need to put up with men's shits more. Relationships are equal. If a man sucks up, the girls from poorer countries still have dignities and have the rights not to put up with him.
Plus, I am even skeptical on whether the girl really owes the man AT ALL.
DeleteA girl's eligible years in youth can be way more valuable.
If the exchange for so called helps are the MOST eligible years of youth, who loses more?
I think commitments from men is more valuable than temporary helps. If the man clearly can NOT give her commitment, the best solution for her is to stop wasting time? Or do you think it's good for her to hang in the dead end relationship longer just because of the helps?
NEVER compromise your boundaries you set up for a guy. If you really are afraid of ethical concerns(which I do not even consider as an issue), you may pay back him by helping back. BUT, still do not lower the boundaries. If a man skips a night from home without explaining himself but kicking you out instead, then I see no reason why leaving the shits is a blamable action.
Grace
Delete"This man can go to Thailand all by himself and have women literally worshiping him for doing a fraction of what he did for you."
And you replied: "That is pure nonsense."
Um, actually no it's not - The Skeptic is right. I've been there too, and had women literally stopping in the street to ask me to go to my hotel with me - and these were regular beautiful women (not hookers) and I'm just a regular guy.
"I think he realized he made a mistake by letting you into his life and doing so much for you. He realized that it was very one sided with him bringing a lot more value to the relationship than you."
I agree 100%. I don't think Anonymous was in a position to be in a relationship at all. She needs to do a lot of work and sort out her issues and life to be ready to consider a functional relationship.
"I've been there too, and had women literally stopping in the street to ask me to go to my hotel with me - and these were regular beautiful women (not hookers) and I'm just a regular guy. "
DeleteAre you sure they are NOT hookers? Are you sure that after the sex in hotel they would not ask you for fees? There are also traps set up like this. In the middle of casual sex, someone pretending to be the woman's hubby/bf would appear suddenly and threaten you for money. Not saying all hot girls volunteering for sex are setting up traps or hookers, but there is the possibility.
As for the second issue, I think that may be why women are deferring their marriage age. They want all their careers set up, all their degrees gotten and all their business got running before they settle in a relationship. Thus half of women would settle only after 30. I am unsure if this is good or bad. The good side is about economic security. The downside is about loss of most fertile age. Do guys prefer women at age of 23 with no job or do guys prefer women at 32 with degrees and jobs and business running? The reality is that economically better off women indeed have more stable marriages now according to statistics. Therefore more and more women are deferring marriage for setting up careers as priorities. Unsure if this is good or bad.
“Are you sure they are NOT hookers?”
DeleteNo I can’t be 100% sure. Some of them might have been, but I certainly don’t think they all were - I didn’t avail of their offers.
“I think that may be why women are deferring their marriage age…they want all their careers set up, all their degrees gotten and all their business got running before they settle in a relationship. Thus half of women would settle only after 30. I am unsure if this is good or bad. The good side is about economic security. The downside is about loss of most fertile age”
I agree – and men are also delaying marriage for the same reasons.
Women have two disadvantages with delaying though:
1) Fertility
Men can afford to wait because their window of fertility is far, far wider. If a woman wants children she might have to compromise/settle at some point for a man she would not have considered ‘worthy’ when she was in her prime.
2) As men get older they increase in what attracts women (maturity, success, communication skills, confidence etc.) whereas women decrease in what attracts men (youth and beauty).
Conclusion: it’s a beneficial strategy for men to delay marriage, but not beneficial for women to delay.
“Do guys prefer women at age of 23 with no job or do guys prefer women at 32 with degrees and jobs and business running?”
For sex men would probably prefer the 23 year old. For marriage they prefer a balance: a woman who is beautiful and fertile, but can also sustain herself financially - so late 20s.
This isn't always true - it depends on the context. Sometimes I talk to women just to get used to talking to women even if I don't want to date or even hook up with them.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHow is that example connected to the case with anonymous? I do not see the connections there at all.
DeleteMy point is to separate helps received someone from whether or not someone cares about you in a relationship.
If a man can pay a lot of money to his gf, does it give him entitlement to be late on dates, and to skip nights from home without good explains etc etc. ? If the answer is yes, my suggestion is NOT to receive helps in such case. Just return whatever the man gave and cut clear.
If after marriage, the man becomes bread earner, and the woman becomes a full time housewife, does it give the man entitlement to enslave the wife too? If the answer is no, I see no reason why it holds as true in dating periods.
Its different after marriage.
DeleteBut even after marriage a man who is well off enough to comfortably afford a housewife in this economy will have/expect more power in the relationship.
Its just very odd for a man to do so much for a woman in the initial dating phase. Its simply not required by the dating norms. Now if she were dating a much older (perhaps unattractive) sugar daddy type that would be different. Even in that case a man who would expect an unequal relationship. He may expect some of his behavior to be excused, like being late for dates and skipping nights from home.
If, in addition to being well off, he is good looking as well, and can attract women by his looks alone (evident for the fact she fell head over heels for him) then this further makes the relationship unequal. If thats the case it could be that he just wanted something on the side w/o too much commitment or this was just a seasonal romance for him but she turned out quite demanding for his taste.
She hasnt mentioned how the 2 of them compare in looks. That would give more insight.
I have witnessed in my real life where people stay with uglier and poorer partners even if they can get better ones. Their reasons given are that "Because when I was messed up, he/she helped me too, I can not forsake him/her when I am better off either". And I'm sure it also means that because their partners helped them without mingling contempt either.
ReplyDeleteRomantically speaking, this is ideal true love. Practically speaking, it's in this situation that the help givers gain the most and the help receivers lose the most.
But I would do the same, if someone treats me well when I am messed up with respect (not talking about a sugar daddy type of treatment, not talking about mistress where the man has multiple partners or even wives who can give a lot of money, but talking about a man who treats me well even when I'm worse off *truly*). If some man gives the #3 type of treatment to me, I would remember him too and would not forsake him if he turns into bad forms either. I would be his best partner even if he goes broke one day, gets in debt, becomes disfigured etc.
Help received is like debt owed. Love is like debt relationship too.
Also reminds me, if someone goes out of job, then the society may not abandon them totally and leave them rot in the street. Instead the society may give them government assistance and let them live on that. But the people living on welfare should NOT expect others to respect them well. Other working people pay them with tax givers' money. You can not live on tax payer's money while expecting them to respect you. They have already done you a favor by giving you welfare rather than leave you rot in the street.
I agree now, whoever brings more on the table economically usually do enjoy more powers. That is fair too.
Even in equal relationships where no one begs for money, usually the money giver has more powers. Even if someone works for a boss with labor to exchange for money, not with sympathy, usually still the boss has more sayings, and the worker usually has to watch about words and behaviors more. Even if in such situations the workers are getting money by labor exchange not through sympathy. Whoever pays money can behave like god. Is that why they say that customers who buy products are like god too? Of course some people can opt to earn less money for the sake of preserving more dignity. But such power dynamics do exist there.
Grace, thank you for sharing your insight. Really like reading your input. You make great points as some are not main stream and very realistically sound. It's these subjects and understandings that woman need to be aware of, not that they aren't, but be willing to acknowledge and contemplate before starting a life with a significant other.
ReplyDeleteBasically, the message is; eval your assets and liabilities honestly for yourself and be willing to make the sacrafices needed to have a well balanced LTR or take the shit that will get shoveled or be willing to walk with options later or stay and live out your commitment come hell or high water. Who do you want to be and how do you want to live your life. It's up to us women to make the choice. But make a choice or others will make it for you and you'll become a victim of circumstance. Hope that makes sense lol aaaand don't take hostages pls. That's the worse!
Andrew and commenters, let's say you're a women with some means (money), and marry someone who is financially stable with about the same means. He works, she stays home but again brings with her her own financial freedom. How will he view her? Will he consider her under him socially but not financially? If so, do you suggest she develops more social relationships to counter balance? Thank you for your time.
ReplyDeleteMen,
ReplyDeleteSay you've started a new relationship, you've been dating for a couple months and just went exclusive, and you think this could eventually develop into something serious (i.e. this person seems to be not 'just for now' til something better comes along, this one is the 'something better'.) What advice would you have for women to help keep things 'good', excited to see one another, especially at this delicate beginning stage? What makes you feel comfortable? What do you respond to well? Should the man set the pace?
Ok if a guy talks to you he is interested in you. I know you say never to initiate communication. If you are always the one initiating conversation and he still ALWAYS responds even if its days till he does. What is going on? The friendship is obviously not that important to him to make contact where he could easily fade out and not respond at all. This is a new interaction for me.
ReplyDeleteHe's interested. Technically. The level of interest is low.......Speaking as someone who's replied after days & as someone who has replied within minutes..
DeleteI have a question related to this post: What about in situations when the guy consistently talks to a girl but doesn't ask her out?
ReplyDeleteI moved 2 hours away one month after finally exchanging numbers with a guy I'd had a crush on for a while. (I haven't slept with him). Over the past year and a half, he has consistently initiated contact with me, usually several times a week, sometimes every day, and sometimes several hours a day. He does act like he likes me. Although it doesn't feel platonic, he hasn't asked me on a date or verbally expressed any feelings or intentions (other than "you're pretty," "you're sexy," "I'm glad we got each others numbers before you moved," etc.) Could it be because of the distance, or does he really just want to be friends?
He likes you, as I said in the post, "to some degree." But there is definitely a romantic or sexual attraction at work.
DeleteIn your situation, I'd confront him, saying something like "Why are we in such close contact but nothing has ever happened between us?" And see what he says. Make sure that you know what you WANT to happen going into the conversation, so that you can properly reply to what he answers. If he doesn't want something, then I would cut him off - at least leaving the ball in his court by saying something like "OK well maybe we should talk again when there is the possibility for something to happen" (e.g. when distance is no longer a factor, or he decides he really wants to give it a shot).
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ReplyDeleteHow does this claim apply in a college class setting? In a class, we went on a field trip, and some how, I ended up having a conversation with these guys while we were just walking around the woods. And now they're still both friendly and we occasionally speak in lecture and lab, a lot of jokes here and there and discussion about the class. The thing is, this just seems to be a situation of "we're in the same class, might as well talk to eachother." rather than "I think you're attractive and I want to talk to you."
ReplyDeleteHi! New reader here. I'm really curious about this topic. In my experience, it has been the opposite actually (that a man who talks to me is pretty much never interested, at least not to my knowledge). And no, I'm not generally the clingy, needy type either, so I don't think it's the case that I'm scaring them off when they maybe were interested at first. Also not sure if this matters, but I'm not a "10" although I also don't think I'm especially ugly either.
ReplyDeleteWhile I get what you're saying that (hetero) men are basically attracted to all women (at least on a sexual level) how does that explain those men who perpetually befriend women that they have no intention of dating? I have learned to assume that men are NOT interested unless they say so because when I assume otherwise, it has never been the case, at least for me (meaning that guys don't ask me out, even the ones who go out of their way to talk to me and be friendly). In fact, I have had more than one occasion where a man will befriend me only to confess to me that he has a huge crush on my friend, and then expects me to help him get an in with her.
Anyway, I should also say that I am a Christian, so not planning to have sex until marriage, and I would assume most of the guys I typically know (most of whom I have met at church or through family friends) have the same values. I wonder if religiousity plays a part in this weird friend-zone experience? To me it's confusing since, especially when I was younger, I would assume if a guy talked to me he was interested, but to then never once be asked out or further pursued by any of these guys makes me think that can't possibly be the case. Do you think the religious aspect of this is what is skewing my (lack of) results or am I just meeting the wrong guys?
Hello im a woman who hasnt really been interested in serious relationships (until now) and on rare occasions I would have a guy I just have strictly sex with. Can u explain why a guy would give me the d*ck then take it away (I hope u get what im saying), like thats sexual frustrating and teasing-like. I dont like dat.
ReplyDeleteHi All,
ReplyDeleteI am new to the website also, some great pointers I found and also some things that I have in the back of my head, just needed to be reminded of.
So here's my question. I work with a guy who is very reserved. I know he likes my company, as he spends a lot of time with me, but we only deal about work issues, there's very little extra involved. We work well together and occasionally have a good laugh. He has in general a great respect for me and values my opinion. I am old enough not to go head over hills over small things, but my 'gut feeling' and other clues have sometimes hinted that he might like me. A while ago I mentioned my birth date and recently, when the day has come, he has remembered it and wished me happy birthday - we didn't see each other on the day, so he e-mailed me. Most men I know have rarely bothered remembering dates... Your take?
I think he likes you
DeleteDoes this same explanation, men will only talk to a woman he likes, apply to a friendship between a married man and a single woman? I dated this guy many years ago. He broke up with me after a few months. I held no hard feelings toward him and we remained friends afterwards. Once he became engaged to another woman our contact dwindled and we lost touch for 20 years. Having recently reconnected on social media, we message each other often catching up on each other’s lives. We have met on two different occasions over the past year. Our conversations have lessened a little to a few times a week rather than every day. We can talk about everything and anything with each other. He has confided in me that he is having issues with his wife. I never spoke poorly of her and I won’t ask how things are. I let him bring it up first. He often asks if I am seeing anyone (I am not). Our chats have become very flirty at times. Neither of us have brought up the prospects of anything sexual. Honestly, I think our conversations have backed off because he may be confused of his feelings for me. We try to make plans for lunch or drinks after work…but it just never seems to work out. BTW- his wife doesn’t know we are friends. So my question is this, does he “like” me by the mere fact that he wants to talk to me or does the rule change because he is married and I should know that he only likes me as a friend?
ReplyDeleteHe likes you enough to talk to you....and enough to flirt with you.....Maybe might sleep with you...If he broke up with you years ago, & is engaged now, then that might be the clue that he isn't interested in being more than friends....
DeleteI m an introvert girl, I don’t talk o any1 much , one of y classmates continuously teases me and do not tease any other girl of class like that……… ,even when I do no respond to him. Even I donot talk to any guy, none of guys talks to me , (as im introvert and im boring for them) whenever Isaw him i caught him him looking at me , but he just doesn’t talk to me .When I move in a group going for sport activity etc . I find hi looking a me. he calls me with the pet name he created for me and calls me with same whenever he sees me in the crowd. When he saw me in parties ,he called me with that name ……and he was like quiet shocked to find me in the parties bcz I was not expected to attend such parties . Earlier he fought with me a lot and then he messeged me when we were fighting late hours., for alost half of yr he sat behind me and I fough a lot with him)…...sometimes when we both are in a group of friends, he hits his his notebook on my head(just as ppl do while playing ,kidding or may be teasing, I don’t know but he does this only with me) Once we were going in an automible he was sitting exactly in front of me .at first he talked casually (2min)l …..then we both were quiet . the driver asked him o sit beside me to have a clr view in he rear view mirror ,but he refused and asked a lady sitting beside him to si beside me.. all through the way he bowed his head , was sitting in front of me ,. Once or twice he sat with me and talked to me . when I had my lunch . both of us donot talk to each other , now we only look at each other a few min. and go. Neither he says anything nor i. What does this mean ??
ReplyDeleteI had a NICE GUY syndrome for all my late teens years and early to mid 20's until I had a female friend made me understand the role of an Alpha male. Now, from the beginning i begin to play mind games with women, because it works. I even reject some females from the get go.I'm polite, but IMPORTANT know and let women know what you want... Never play the NICE GUY card because you'll be lefted in the Friend zone and that wont get her in your bed... Men, you need to take risk and also reject women from the get go, it opens the door of a challenge.Sorry, but women LOVE a mind challenge and be kept on their toes.
ReplyDeleteThank god! I'm 27 and up until now im in a ltr, I've had my fair share of freind zoned situations and casual hook ups. I am freinds with at least 4 guys who all tried the be a freind first scenario, apart from one I have dated or hooked up with them. There are a few others who faded out when I got into a ltr and I knew who they would be because they were on my radar also and they just didn't take the chance at the right time. But these guys are now real freinds, they come to me for input and advice and I know they won't 'try it' ever again as they know that for whatever reason it won't happen. Despite this I know that they all have a level of attraction to me. Basically, don't be surprised if a guy has a level of attraction for you because that's why he spoke to you in the first place. That maybe the glue that holds your platonic relationship. Get over it. If they take the risk and ask you out then respect them and be kind. It takes a while for freind zone behaviour to leave...but don't think that the male freind who is attracted will nessarily turn into a ltr. That was mt bug bear, one of those guys in that four tried it and eventually I gave him a chance even though I knew that he couldn't have a ltr with me. I said to him that it's way worse when a male mate tries to make you a fuck buddy, I lost all respect. Go find some random for that.
Deleteso I have a question for the men out there. I met this guy at work almost 2 years ago, we emailed pretty frequently. Early in our email exchanges I gave him number & opened the door for him to call me sometime but he thanked me for the offer but told me that he lived with someone who would not be okay with that. The emails continued to be bounced back and forth (i was sending them as I was motivating him as part of my role at work, I only saw him once a week at my job). At a fourth of July celebration in our town he asked my sister in law for my phone number and we ended up meeting and spending about 2 hours talking and drinking. As it was time to leave he asked me how I was getting home and I said I was walking, well he insisted on driving me home and he did. Well as we sat in the parking lot of my apartment he leaned over and kissed me.....3 times. Fast forward a year and a half. We no longer exchange emails but our communication is through text message. He never initiates the texts but almost always reply's to mine. My gut says that he is still interested in me, but due to his situation (hes not married but has a child with this person he lives with) he is unable to pursue me. Am I stupid or is my gut right that he is interested but just waiting for the right timing. It will be 2 years in Feb that we met & I still see him weekly. The other part is that he actually has to pay to see me & he continues to pay for the service I provide but I would have thought he would have discontinued my services long ago as he is not achieving success with the service I am there for. Other people that pay for my services are. Please give me some thoughts if you could! Thanks I would appreciate any input!
ReplyDeleteI was actually curious when I saw this blog saying when a man talks to you he likes you. Now my question is how about if the guy is already married?
ReplyDeleteThere is this guy who works with me and is married everybody knows that, I caught him many times (like two years already) staring at me like a psycho... I found it weird and actually ignored it few times before, I was thinking maybe he's just thinking way through me or something like that but it kept happening and I kept catching his stares and he wouldn't budge or avoid getting eye contact with you which is awkward most of the time, this kind of scenario was obviously known by both of us only. A year ago he made an effort to approach me in a way that is weird for someone to act like he is single and courting, I thought maybe he wanted to befriend with me like he sees with his other friends I talk to. He found a way to talk to me and since then we were close, I wanted to say he just wants to befriend with me... I really don't know guys especially someone married and being that close with you, concern with you, overly nice to you. I like him as a friend, I respect his marriage and will bring up about his wife and family every now and then although most of my colleagues see the difference in him and the way he treated me among others. I want him to be just my friend but am falling and none of us every say a thing about liking each other but letting our actions speak and his stare still speaks a lot. How would I know if he only wants to have sex with me or is he just really wanted me as his friend or perhaps not... but we have been close friends for over a year now, if he is really waiting for me to give in to his fixation that's a long wait for him. There are those hints from him and his actions really speaks out his intention if you base on women's intuition... I really got the feeling that he likes me, but still am confuse because how can a married man like someone when they are already married. Is he still happy with his marriage? I don't want to lose him as friend.. but I really don't know his intention, you may say am so naive about guys and I guilty for that.
Hi Andrew I love your blog,can you write about how to tell if a guy is flirting with you at work?
ReplyDeleteI am glad i take a glance on this blog, every has to believe that cheating is cheating and any person who flirt in order to find the right person many end up been punish by the future because what you did is what you will get. Don't forget that world is not the house dwell forever, fear woman or girl that can break-up with someone in any circumstance because one day you may a victim as you laugh at the other person nor a man or guy engage.
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Hi, just a quick question and I hope you reply.
ReplyDeleteWhen you mean "interact with you", does it mean if he TALKS to you, he likes you? Or do you mean any kind of approaching, even if it does not involve talking? Does simple staring a lot in situations when this isn't necessary mean anything?
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