I suspect a good portion of the readers of this site have stumbled upon "The Manosphere" while browsing the internet for information about relationships – even if they haven't recognized it by that name. For those unfamiliar with it, The Manosphere is a very loose collection of blogs and websites written for men by men. They discuss male-related issues, with a heavy focus on the politics and social dynamics surrounding male-female interactions.
Perhaps more characteristic than the content itself (which can vary quite widely) is the underlying ideology, which champions self-improvement, the exposure of counter-cultural "red pill" truths about sexual dynamics, and a return to traditional gender roles for men and women. Sites like Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste are typical of The Manosphere.
Recently, a reader asked whether I agreed with a post she'd read, claiming that women should read Manosphere websites (the post was written by a girl). By doing so, the post argued, women can learn a lot about men, and therefore more effectively attract the kind of man they want. What follows are my thoughts about this theory…
Let me start by explaining that I know about The Manosphere because I used to read it. I still do occasionally, as some of the blogs are still on my Blogger feed, and they often publish posts with titles that are hard to ignore, such as "6 Reasons Why Fat Women Are Defective."
In any case, the first thing you need to realize is that, in spite of the constant attempts to prove the contrary, The Manosphere is written by men who are bad with women. At least, it is written by men who have a history of being bad with women. I know this in part because being bad with women was how I discovered The Manosphere. But you don't need this "takes-one-to-know-one" perspective to see that posts titled "The Age of Flakes" or "How to Get Rid of Approach Anxiety" are written by guys (and of course, for guys) who have a lot of room for improvement.
Let me emphasize that I see nothing wrong with this. When a guy wakes up in his early twenties and realizes that he has crippling anxiety about talking to women, it is usually due to causes that were somewhat beyond his control - the way his parents raised him, for example. The fact that these guys are taking steps or even strides towards changing that fact is laudable. I am not mocking or pointing fingers here; I am just pointing out that the basic characteristic common to the authors of Manosphere sites is that they have a history of not getting the kind of reactions from women that they want, which leads to the more important point: Manosphere writers come from a place of discontent with respect to what women think about them. A small subset of them might have learned a handful of techniques that get them to a point where they feel proud of their success with women, and a select few beyond that might have genuinely overcome their underlying sense of inadequacy with respect to women. But the rest still feel this dissatisfaction, even if they don't recognize or admit it.
Now, there are two ways a man can react when he is disappointed with his success with women. The first is to recognize an inadequacy within, and work towards improving. The second is to blame that lack of success on women or circumstance, and give up. In The Manosphere, you'll find both. When I first discovered some Manosphere websites, I was looking for other men who had the first reaction; and I found enough of it to keep me interested for a while. But it was the realization that the majority of the writers were indulging in the second reaction that ultimately caused me to stop reading. In the same way that I eventually stopped appreciating Taylor Swift because I heard enough of her songs to realize that she has a major victim syndrome, I was turned off by The Manosphere's writers once I read enough to recognize what lies behind most of their complaints: dissatisfaction with themselves and the need for a scapegoat.
Let's look at an example to illustrate this: if a guy is approaching girls and they are rejecting him by turning immediately to look at their phones, there are two ways of explaining what is happening. The first is for the guy to admit that he is approaching these girls awkwardly, or that he is dressed poorly, or that something else is wrong. Then he can either work to improve or lower his expectations accordingly. The second way is to blame it on women or smartphones – or both. A nice way to confirm this opinion is to read (or write) an article claiming that "Women Who Own iPhones Lose The Ability To Love" and read all of the affirming responses in the article's comments section. Of course, the guy has to overlook the fact that the positive comments come from other men who've been similarly snubbed by girls, and are similarly looking for confirmation that it wasn't their fault. You, meanwhile, read such an article and are left wondering if maybe your phone is preventing you from attracting men. The reality, of course, is that your instinct to look at your phone all the time says much more about his timidity in approaching you than anything about your receptiveness.
I am not saying that all men in The Manosphere hate women. I am not even saying that any one of its writers hates women. But I am saying that The Manosphere is built on the tiny feelings of satisfaction that its thousands of readers – many of whom are normal guys who have a fairly healthy relationships with women – feel every time they can laugh or take a jab at what has caused them pain at some point in their past: women. I know because I've felt the temptation to do so myself, and I've seen the same tendency manifest itself as a wide spectrum of self-supporting-yet-delusional beliefs (held by men and women alike, and not necessarily related to dating). Men like reading The Manosphere for the same reason that women like songs that tell them weight isn't so important when it comes to attracting men: because it's easier than admitting that they're going to have to work harder.
I can absolutely see how a girl would be drawn in to The Manosphere. In a world of sappy, sugar-coated, "everything-is-going-to-be-all-right" dating advice, the stuff you read on The Manosphere stings just enough to be believable. You might even applaud yourself for pushing through your initial distaste for what you read in order to learn from the "harsh truth" beyond. But just because the truth is often harsh doesn't mean that harsh claims are necessarily true. Just because everyone else lies to you to make you feel good about yourself doesn't mean that the person who makes you feel bad about yourself isn't full of shit too. And as I explained above, there are good reasons to believe that a lot of The Manosphere is full of shit. What seems like a collection of articles written by men with absolutely no motivation to lie to you is actually a collection of articles written by men who feel shunned and mistreated by women in general (or at least have a history of feeling that way), and therefore have an underlying desire to believe that the playing field of sexual dynamics is tilted back in their favor. There is a reason why reading The Manosphere makes you feel like it kind of sucks to be a girl. What better way is there for a guy in his 30s to compensate for the feelings of sexual impotence he had in college (when he was surrounded by beautiful girls he couldn't get) than by inflating the importance of youth when it comes to female attractiveness? The assertions of The Manosphere are simply too convenient to be completely believable.
Yes, it is partially true that society has lost sight of what these guys call "red pill" truths; I am not denying that. But the very fact that they use metaphors from The Matrix should hint at the fact that many of them have issues with attracting women; and the almost singular focus on pointing out female shortcomings should suggest that maybe, just maybe, they hold their world-view because it conveniently puts them back into the place of power they feel so incapable of occupying. Ever notice how the most ardent modern-day Feminists are fat and ugly? The most vocal authors in The Manosphere are the masculine manifestation of exactly the same phenomenon: the phenomenon whereby people subconsciously choose beliefs that reassert their importance and agency in the world. The modern Feminist says "I am not good-looking enough to compete with Victoria's Secret models, so the standards of beauty they idealize must be inaccurate and unfair." The Manosphere writer says: "I am not getting the attention from women that I want; it must be because the girls in my country are selfish and entitled."
I don't want to paint the whole Manosphere in a bad light. From what I've read of his stuff, the guy who writes Chateau Heartiste seems pretty damn smart, and I admire Roosh's drive and bold individualism. There are definitely a lot of intelligent guys writing some very insightful stuff in The Manosphere, and there is a lot that both women and men can learn from reading it. The problem is just that there is a lot of bad mixed in with the good. And although it might be easy to identify the posts that are flagrantly wrong, even the sharpest readers will have trouble distinguishing the truth in the grayer areas.
So I am not going to tell you not to read The Manosphere. I've never liked the idea of censorship, and who the hell am I to tell you what to read anyway? But if you do choose to read The Manosphere, you need to recognize that you are walking through a minefield of ideas, where a lot of what you'll read is colored by the authors' need to feel sexually powerful. Yes, occasionally the complaints you read about women on those blogs will be honest and accurate expositions of things that women are doing wrong; but more often than not they will be frustration-fueled attempts to blame someone or something else for the fact that the author can't get the kind or quantity of girls he wants. That being said, being aware of the mindset behind what you read in The Manosphere should go a long way towards being able to distinguish the truth from the wishful thinking. So my advice is simple: keep this fact in mind, and read carefully.
One last note, especially for the men reading this: most of the good information contained in The Manosphere, and a lot more besides, minus all of the posturing and complaining, can be found on a website called Animus Empire. Women, of course, can find the good without the bad on blogs like this one.
Perhaps more characteristic than the content itself (which can vary quite widely) is the underlying ideology, which champions self-improvement, the exposure of counter-cultural "red pill" truths about sexual dynamics, and a return to traditional gender roles for men and women. Sites like Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste are typical of The Manosphere.
Recently, a reader asked whether I agreed with a post she'd read, claiming that women should read Manosphere websites (the post was written by a girl). By doing so, the post argued, women can learn a lot about men, and therefore more effectively attract the kind of man they want. What follows are my thoughts about this theory…
Let me start by explaining that I know about The Manosphere because I used to read it. I still do occasionally, as some of the blogs are still on my Blogger feed, and they often publish posts with titles that are hard to ignore, such as "6 Reasons Why Fat Women Are Defective."
In any case, the first thing you need to realize is that, in spite of the constant attempts to prove the contrary, The Manosphere is written by men who are bad with women. At least, it is written by men who have a history of being bad with women. I know this in part because being bad with women was how I discovered The Manosphere. But you don't need this "takes-one-to-know-one" perspective to see that posts titled "The Age of Flakes" or "How to Get Rid of Approach Anxiety" are written by guys (and of course, for guys) who have a lot of room for improvement.
Let me emphasize that I see nothing wrong with this. When a guy wakes up in his early twenties and realizes that he has crippling anxiety about talking to women, it is usually due to causes that were somewhat beyond his control - the way his parents raised him, for example. The fact that these guys are taking steps or even strides towards changing that fact is laudable. I am not mocking or pointing fingers here; I am just pointing out that the basic characteristic common to the authors of Manosphere sites is that they have a history of not getting the kind of reactions from women that they want, which leads to the more important point: Manosphere writers come from a place of discontent with respect to what women think about them. A small subset of them might have learned a handful of techniques that get them to a point where they feel proud of their success with women, and a select few beyond that might have genuinely overcome their underlying sense of inadequacy with respect to women. But the rest still feel this dissatisfaction, even if they don't recognize or admit it.
Now, there are two ways a man can react when he is disappointed with his success with women. The first is to recognize an inadequacy within, and work towards improving. The second is to blame that lack of success on women or circumstance, and give up. In The Manosphere, you'll find both. When I first discovered some Manosphere websites, I was looking for other men who had the first reaction; and I found enough of it to keep me interested for a while. But it was the realization that the majority of the writers were indulging in the second reaction that ultimately caused me to stop reading. In the same way that I eventually stopped appreciating Taylor Swift because I heard enough of her songs to realize that she has a major victim syndrome, I was turned off by The Manosphere's writers once I read enough to recognize what lies behind most of their complaints: dissatisfaction with themselves and the need for a scapegoat.
Let's look at an example to illustrate this: if a guy is approaching girls and they are rejecting him by turning immediately to look at their phones, there are two ways of explaining what is happening. The first is for the guy to admit that he is approaching these girls awkwardly, or that he is dressed poorly, or that something else is wrong. Then he can either work to improve or lower his expectations accordingly. The second way is to blame it on women or smartphones – or both. A nice way to confirm this opinion is to read (or write) an article claiming that "Women Who Own iPhones Lose The Ability To Love" and read all of the affirming responses in the article's comments section. Of course, the guy has to overlook the fact that the positive comments come from other men who've been similarly snubbed by girls, and are similarly looking for confirmation that it wasn't their fault. You, meanwhile, read such an article and are left wondering if maybe your phone is preventing you from attracting men. The reality, of course, is that your instinct to look at your phone all the time says much more about his timidity in approaching you than anything about your receptiveness.
I am not saying that all men in The Manosphere hate women. I am not even saying that any one of its writers hates women. But I am saying that The Manosphere is built on the tiny feelings of satisfaction that its thousands of readers – many of whom are normal guys who have a fairly healthy relationships with women – feel every time they can laugh or take a jab at what has caused them pain at some point in their past: women. I know because I've felt the temptation to do so myself, and I've seen the same tendency manifest itself as a wide spectrum of self-supporting-yet-delusional beliefs (held by men and women alike, and not necessarily related to dating). Men like reading The Manosphere for the same reason that women like songs that tell them weight isn't so important when it comes to attracting men: because it's easier than admitting that they're going to have to work harder.
I can absolutely see how a girl would be drawn in to The Manosphere. In a world of sappy, sugar-coated, "everything-is-going-to-be-all-right" dating advice, the stuff you read on The Manosphere stings just enough to be believable. You might even applaud yourself for pushing through your initial distaste for what you read in order to learn from the "harsh truth" beyond. But just because the truth is often harsh doesn't mean that harsh claims are necessarily true. Just because everyone else lies to you to make you feel good about yourself doesn't mean that the person who makes you feel bad about yourself isn't full of shit too. And as I explained above, there are good reasons to believe that a lot of The Manosphere is full of shit. What seems like a collection of articles written by men with absolutely no motivation to lie to you is actually a collection of articles written by men who feel shunned and mistreated by women in general (or at least have a history of feeling that way), and therefore have an underlying desire to believe that the playing field of sexual dynamics is tilted back in their favor. There is a reason why reading The Manosphere makes you feel like it kind of sucks to be a girl. What better way is there for a guy in his 30s to compensate for the feelings of sexual impotence he had in college (when he was surrounded by beautiful girls he couldn't get) than by inflating the importance of youth when it comes to female attractiveness? The assertions of The Manosphere are simply too convenient to be completely believable.
Yes, it is partially true that society has lost sight of what these guys call "red pill" truths; I am not denying that. But the very fact that they use metaphors from The Matrix should hint at the fact that many of them have issues with attracting women; and the almost singular focus on pointing out female shortcomings should suggest that maybe, just maybe, they hold their world-view because it conveniently puts them back into the place of power they feel so incapable of occupying. Ever notice how the most ardent modern-day Feminists are fat and ugly? The most vocal authors in The Manosphere are the masculine manifestation of exactly the same phenomenon: the phenomenon whereby people subconsciously choose beliefs that reassert their importance and agency in the world. The modern Feminist says "I am not good-looking enough to compete with Victoria's Secret models, so the standards of beauty they idealize must be inaccurate and unfair." The Manosphere writer says: "I am not getting the attention from women that I want; it must be because the girls in my country are selfish and entitled."
I don't want to paint the whole Manosphere in a bad light. From what I've read of his stuff, the guy who writes Chateau Heartiste seems pretty damn smart, and I admire Roosh's drive and bold individualism. There are definitely a lot of intelligent guys writing some very insightful stuff in The Manosphere, and there is a lot that both women and men can learn from reading it. The problem is just that there is a lot of bad mixed in with the good. And although it might be easy to identify the posts that are flagrantly wrong, even the sharpest readers will have trouble distinguishing the truth in the grayer areas.
So I am not going to tell you not to read The Manosphere. I've never liked the idea of censorship, and who the hell am I to tell you what to read anyway? But if you do choose to read The Manosphere, you need to recognize that you are walking through a minefield of ideas, where a lot of what you'll read is colored by the authors' need to feel sexually powerful. Yes, occasionally the complaints you read about women on those blogs will be honest and accurate expositions of things that women are doing wrong; but more often than not they will be frustration-fueled attempts to blame someone or something else for the fact that the author can't get the kind or quantity of girls he wants. That being said, being aware of the mindset behind what you read in The Manosphere should go a long way towards being able to distinguish the truth from the wishful thinking. So my advice is simple: keep this fact in mind, and read carefully.
One last note, especially for the men reading this: most of the good information contained in The Manosphere, and a lot more besides, minus all of the posturing and complaining, can be found on a website called Animus Empire. Women, of course, can find the good without the bad on blogs like this one.
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As a woman who delved heavily into reading Manosphere blogs (and has likewise tapered off) I have to agree. There's a flip side to everything, and playing the victim isn't sexy on anyone.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, I honestly wouldn't recommend reading much of the Manosphere to most women. Doing so has influenced a few things about my behavior and understanding of men for the better - for example, simply realizing just how essential sex is to a man (long-term). Understanding that no matter how nice or funny or charming I am, if I am not attractive to someone it's a moot point. Also it provided clarity on why men behave certain ways. But all truth and understanding aside, I found most of them really do hate women to a degree. Despite knowing this and using my logical brain to 'filter the noise' I found that reading these things regularly was eroding my otherwise strong sense of self-worth.
And that isn't worth it.
once again andrew, just brilliant.
ReplyDeleteplease post more often! :)
hi andrew! loved your post and looking foward for the release of your book.
ReplyDeletein the past i've met guys at clubs that seemed really into me all night long (asked for my phone number, added me to facebook..) i have, in the past, ended up making out with some of this guys, but then they will not follow up. i was discussing with my cousin (we are 19 years old) if they didnt follow up because i kissed them , therefore proving i was "easy" or because they were not attracted in the first place.
if they were not attracted in the first place, i would really like to know whether it is my personality or my looks. as "woman get to play out of their league" i sometimes wonder if i think i am more attractive thatn what i really am.. i dont know how i could figure this out
any thoughts or comments?
if i liked you enough to kiss you AND you gave me your number I would have taken you on a date right away. I'm way too old for you (so not hitting on you), but I would have done that at your age as well. I wouldn't think you are easy, would have been thrilled you found me just as attractive as i found you.
DeleteThank you, thank you for writing this article. The reason I was drawn to the "manosphere" was because - as you rightly stated - I was sick of the sugarcoated bullshit I read all the time about dating and, as a very blunt and realistic person, the stuff in the manosphere did sting just enough to be believable. My hyper realism is the reason I like your blog - I appreciate it's bluntness. So I'm glad to hear that you don't think all the stuff the terrible stuff some of those guys write is totally true.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting to hear your assertion on The Manosphere, Andrew!
ReplyDeleteI delved in The Manosphere for a bit out of sheer curiosity. The Manosphere is to be commended for being bold. We women need to listen to their take on relationships so we can grow. I honestly believe I've gained some useful understanding on how I can be a better date / girlfriend / wife and on what Men desire.
However, the drama as well as the negative / bleak outlook conveyed in some comments or posts was a tad much and it overshadowed the nice gems found in The Manosphere.
Brilliant post. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteI do more or less agree with what you write about the Manosphere. I also agree to an extend with your comparison to the "fat and ugly feminists" cliché. Or at least I think there is some truth in what you write, although I believe that feminism is much more complex.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do find your views on female bodies and weight to be much too harsh (to me one of thte big downsides to this website). I much more believe in a love yourself and become attractive approach (mixed with self improvement of course). I am 43 and I believe there are certain fashions when it comes to female body types. In the 90th evrybody was into Kate Moss whereas now Kim Kardashian seems to be the thing. I do think that it is wrong that women see Victoria Secret Models or others as some kind of ideal.
Why would it be wrong for men to see Victoria's Secret models as the ideal of female beauty? Men aren't faking their taste to make women's lives difficult; they are just being honest about what they like.
DeleteAgree. I don't understand why women would fault men for preferring youth and slenderness in women, but not fault themselves for preferring height and build/stature in men.
DeleteAnon March 3, 2015 at 2:19 AM, would men from the 90's and today choose either Kate Moss or Kim Kardashian over a Victoria's secret model? I'm old enough to tell you that I would not and don't know any men who would. So when you see things like this be skeptical, http://greatist.com/grow/100-years-womens-body-image . These are typically based on the fashion and/or high fashion or a famous woman for each period, which is different from what men prefer.
DeleteSophia Lauren and Raquel Welch I think have been wanted by most men since they became famous, those are the types of beauties that fit guys types.
Yes, I think some would. When I was young two of my boyfriends, and many many men in my near vicinity totally fancied Kate. In some circles - at least here in Europe - she really was the queen of the moment.
DeleteMore recent men I got to know where "Assmen" as you might call them ... Although that has probably always been around ... Dunno
I think my grandpa probably fancied Sophia Loren ;).
She was/is very pretty though. :)
DeleteWhat's wrong with having a VS model as the ideal? You can say society has impossible ideals, but I think most people are just too lazy to better themselves. Personally it's my goal to look like a VS model (but a shorter version unfortunately) AND have a successful career, and be an amazing mother/wife one day :)
DeleteMarch 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM The problem with that is that these things are actually not all supereasy unless you are a very exceptional and if you set your goals too high - you might actually fail and become even more frustrated. Think about a lot of people - women in particular- having eating disorders and other problems with self estem.For some people it is not really realistic to look like such a model. Why should women walk away from every meal slightly hungry (one of Andrew's tips that I would disagree with). What about men, should they do the same?
DeleteAnother problem is that comparing yourself to a Super Model might affect your self esteem. And I do think that self esteem is the most important key to attraction and living a happy life. I know that Andrew sees a gender difference there. But I think that gender difference does not really exist here. - But I can never truly know because I am a woman.
From my experience it is often better to be a bit more forgiving with myself. But, hey, everybody is different.
I have a fundamental problem with the idea that the ideal of female beauty - or any ideal, for that matter - should be something "super easy" to achieve. You're essentially saying that because you or some women feel powerless to reach that ideal, we should lower our standards for everyone.
DeleteBut think about that
What if we do the same for the standards of male confidence? Do you think we should boycot James Bond films because some guys can't be that bold? We'd make every man feel comfortable with themselves, but all men would be pussies. Is that really the end goal? To have everyone feel comfortable and unchallenged?
Yes, seeing someone better than you (in any aspect of life) will invariably affect your self esteem, but so what? Why are we so afraid of that? Why is it a bad thing? If we never saw something to aspire to, we'd never be inspired to improve. Feeling dwarfed by another person's greatness - whether it is a natural talent of theirs or something they've worked for - is something we should cherish, not try to snuff out.
If you start thinking about the icons of female beauty in this sense, I think you'll start to appreciate them more.
"Why should women walk away from every meal slightly hungry" - women and men should walk away from each meal a bit hungry in this country (USA). The Japanese eat until they are 80% full, Americans eat until twice (or even three times) as much as they need to. Eating less is healthy. Please stop acting like eating a little less than you need to is some form of an eating disorder, it's that type of mentality why there are so many obese people these days.
DeleteAnd comparing myself to a supermodel doesn't affect my self esteem at all, at least not in the big picture. I was raised to value my intelligence, kindness, and other qualities. Those girls are paid to look perfect, I'm not, but that doesn't mean I should set my standards lower on what to strive for. And that is the same for my studies, career, and anything else I've done in life.
I've just noticed it's a trend in American culture that mothers teach their girls they are the most beautiful girl in the world from the day they are born. They teach girls to put their looks first, and when these girls grow up and don't look anything like a supermodel, they start complaining and creating this real women movement of plus size models saying how everyone is somehow physically beautiful. Growing up, my parents told me I was fat every single day of my life (yes I was medically overweight), and I didn't know that was considered mean until people told me they thought it was shocking that my parents said that to me. Now I'm grateful to have been "fat shamed" because now I'm slim and healthy, and maintain my figure while having a successful career and every other girl my age is packing on 20-40 pounds sitting at home munching on chips unemployed.
And for the record, I only said that girls trying to lose weight should walk away from meals hungry.
DeleteHi, same person here who wrote the above stuff about walking away from your meals etc. ...
DeleteCool, I get it. I don't want to put the stuff on your blog down or anything. I find the things you are writing about quite intelligent and I read them myself to get some advice and new thoughts. (In a way quite sad for a woman over 40 but hey,tha's me.)
I also didn't want to put the writer March 13, 2015 at 11:43 AM down or anything. If you are a pretty person and you want to achieve big things in your life. Go for it by all means !!! It is great to have some motivation and enthusiam. It is also great to feel pretty. And there are many women who are superpretty and have great jobs, and are super nice people.
However, let me tell you some personal stuff here. I think lookwise I am a 5. I'm neither skinny nor fat, just pretty average.
When I was younger I wanted to be super skinny, like Kate Moss skinny. I felt almost depressed over it. It was really trerrible. I did also not really have or understand the idea that looks might be to a large extend controllable.
Now that I am a bit older I look probably better (for my age) or certainly not worse than I ever have in my life due to realising my potential more. (Something you also write about if I remember correctly). Still think I'm around 5 or 6 currently and might not be able to achieve much more lookwise. Just used the numbers so you get the picture and see where I'm coming from and who's talking.
However, nowadays when see very curvy or curvy girls. I think they are incredibly beautiful and look like godesses ... I actually often think they look much cooler and more interesting (or the same) than skinnier young girls. (I thought fat women looked really bad when I was young).
Now you tell me what that is ...
Here are some ideas that I have myself. I am not sure though.
a) Am I mellow or even senile with age?
b) I am a very trendy person and see a massive curvy trend coming on and I'm already feeling it? (... Kim Kardashian...)
c) Is it because I have met very attractive men recently who were into curvy women?
d) (Not the solution which would suit me best, but probably the one that most people would agree on) It is not so much about skinny vs. heavier it is all more about proportions.
(For the record :) I don't think that people should stuff themselves the whole day with unhealthy food.)
I find the stuff you write really cool. Maybe (?) a bit conservative for my personal taste but still very very interesting and helpful.
But I disgree with the VS models (at least as the only ideal), which might also just be a matter of taste. (And yes, the fact that I'm from Europe might matter here as well.) But again for the record: I also don't find them ugly.
And I don't think that things should always be supereasy, but also not superhard. There should be a balance. And I think their should also be a fair balance between the sexes.
Adding to my above post, and then I'm also going to shut up here - at least for this blog discussion - your confidence thing seems to me like a pretty good argument. Women are probably bad as well (or you don't even find that bad - ok). Good point, which also ties in to the actual topic - the manosphere - and their worries and troubles again. There might be , in my opinion, two big trends in the future: angry men and very curvy women ... ;)
DeleteI'm sorry you went through being depressed over wanting to be super skinny, but I don't think men prefer Kate Moss thinnness. And as for VS models being ideal, you're right as it shouldn't be the only ideal, but I don't think it is. There have been some curvier women posted here, like Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, and Scarlett Johansson was rated a 10. I think you can be curvier and look just as good, but it's just that curvy is so misused these days, and morbidly obese women like Tess Munster are being praised as sexy, which I find very disturbing.
DeleteAnd honestly most guys don't pay attention to models too much. A lot of men only see those girls at their best, and a good number of them have to gain quite a bit of weight for the Victoria's Secret fashion show. I highly doubt most men would consider what most of these models look like year round to be their ideal! Having seen some models in real life, I can tell you they are not all that. And I do think most men prefer some more curves, just not medically overweight status.
And a lot of the time I think girls overestimate how picky guys really are. I think women can be much more critical than men. There are some bitchy girls who go on and on about how "huge" Taylor Swift's thighs are, but then also a lot of girls who scream "anorexic" at any girl who is not obese. Men seem to be a lot more in between than that.
DeleteHaven't there been OK Cupid and other studies which demonstrate that women rate more men as "average or below" than men rate women "average or below" in level of attractiveness? (Statistics nerds: I use the term "average" colloquially.) Theoretically, 50% of men/women should be rated as below the median, and 50% above.
DeleteNo, I think women should not see that as an ideal.
ReplyDeleteIf you as a man like women who look like this, that's fine. :) You shouldn't say they are ugly or deny that.That would not help anybody.
However, I think there may be different men with different tastes. Or I happen to think that for whatever reason there seem to be certain trends. And it seems to me that we (myself included) seem to be brainwashed at times as to what we deem beautiful.
Anyways, I also like your approach that femine beauty can be controlled. It feels very liberating and positive to me as a woman. Although I am not sure whether I believe the claim 100 per cent.
I also like your website very much. Very entertaining and original thinking at times.
I'm glad you like it.
DeleteJust for the record, I didn't say that female beauty can be 100% controlled. What I said was that "63 % of feminine beauty is more than 80 % controllable." I also said that "18 % of feminine beauty is 100 % controllable" (link)
True. I kind of forgot about that. :)
DeleteMaybe you could also do a post about older women who came out of a long-term realtionship. However, that might not be your area of expertise or interest since you are younger yourself.
But maybe you could say in how far you think your theories apply to women over forty as well. Sometimes you seem to suggest that life is over if you haven't managed to marry by then. (I also don't want to marry anymore but I still like to attract men into my life. :) )
Or are the monosphere people right in what they say about older women afte all?
I whish there would be writers out there who would cover that topic in the same quality and originality like you do as well.
From my reading of the manosphere, the manosphere does not write off older women (by the way, I am an older woman myself, divorced). However, it does point out that older women do have expectations of men that are out of touch with the reality of what dating as an older woman is like. Older women don't understand why they can't find financially stable, attractive and emotional literate older men when in reality these men really do not want or need anything these women have to offer. That is the "redpill" truth.
DeleteAnon @ March 6, 1:50PM: You kinda contradict yourself, or am I misunderstanding what you say? Do you think telling a woman past 25 her SMV is of no value is not writing off older women?
DeleteYou say: “the manosphere does not write off older women” followed by “when in reality these men really do not want or need anything these women have to offer.”
No, I did not contradict myself. Men who are desirable to older women tend not to be the ones who go for older women. Look, as an older woman myself, I get tons and tons of offers, but not from men whom I find attractive. I acknowledge and own that. This is exactly what the manosphere says - an older woman can get sex and/or committment, but usually not from men she wants sex and committment from. Not so much a problem when she is younger and more sought after/desired by a bigger pool of men whom she can choose from.
DeleteThat Roosh guy doesn't seem do understand a difference between receiving attention and acting on it. Also, that smirk on the face when he talks about romanticism. Cute.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, although it is true that many Feminists are fat and ugly, I encourage you to put yourself in their shoes.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying this because, although I do not consider myself to be a feminist, I used to be physically unattractive (terrible hair, acne) and poor. I would have died to take care of my skin and get the brazilian blowout like all of my friends did, but I simply didn't have the money to do so. In the country where I am from, makeup and clothes are very expensive. The only way I had to take care of my appearance as a teenager was by being physically fit. Yet I didn't have enough money to buy clothes with which I could show it off.
Now I'm in a different place, I've been able to earn a lot of money and feel better about myself thanks to my efforts and achievements. The money I've earned has allowed me to take care of my appearance in ways I never could before. Now I know men are wayyy more physically attracted to me. My next step is to improve my personality because I have no idea how to deal with male attention.
The point I really want to make is that had Feminism never existed, I probably would not be at the same level I am today. I may have had to marry some fat, broke man, because I couldn't take care of my appearance. Perhaps even more importantly, I would have fewer things I could do to improve my self-worth. Pursuing achievements and becoming very intelligent allowed me to obtain a sense of identity during a time where I otherwise would have felt like I was at the bottom of the food chain.
Well, I'm not sure I agree... In the absence of feminism you probably would have been raised (either intentionally, by your parents, or indirectly, by the culture surrounding you) to focus on your appearance more and be more open with your femininity; so I doubt you would have been as helpless as you imagine.
DeleteYou raise a good point. All the energy and money spent on sending me to school would most likely have been spent on my looks and finding me a husband. I probably would have looked a lot better during high school now that I think of it.
DeleteHowever, in the 1800s, if you were a *really* ugly woman, you would of course try to improve your looks and all, but so would all other women. In the end, you'd most likely end up being a servant. Or married to some loser you don't even like. I can't see how those can be better.
Also, being successful means you have more access to successful men than non-successful people. I can see how this has impacted my life. I've been able to become more picky than my friends back home. While they go crazy for the one guy they know who has a ton of money, I meet guys like that frequently, so I can focus more on looking for other traits.
I know you hate feminism, Andrew, but try to see that it CAN benefit women's lives.
I've never said that I hate feminism. I have a fairly recent post dedicated to the topic (linked in the related posts section above) where I say very clearly that I'm mostly undecided on the issue.
DeleteAnd I do agree that giving less genetically gifted women the right to vote and work and all the rest improves their lives, in the sense that it gives them the option to choose for themselves whether they want to find happiness through a relationship or through their work. I never suggested anything to the contrary. I just said that most modern feminists are fat and ugly, which isn't even an opinion.
Haha alright then, my bad!
DeleteWhy won't you describe yourself as a feminist? That's just mean and ungrateful
DeleteSorry Andrew I don't know where you live, maybe you're surrounded by professional gold diggers, but from what I've observed, women who have good careers tend to look better. It's the same reason why thinner people get promoted, not because of how they look, but because if you make the effort to stay thin, look good, you probably work harder at your job. It's not an either or like you describe, a lot of girls out there are just lazy, not working on her career OR her looks.
DeleteI think you misunderstood my point
DeleteYou were saying in the absence of feminism women would be more attractive? That's just not true. The reason why women (and men) today are less attractive now is because of the obesity crisis. Yes I totally get that there are some feminists out there who are the fat and ugly type, but they aren't unattractive because they are feminists, rather they are complainers in general and use their careers or whatever as an excuse for why they are overweight, can't dress, and have short hair. In the absence of feminism, those same women would be the ones complaining that taking care of children is too hard, cooking is too much work. They're not magically going to start putting makeup on. If you haven't noticed, the extreme feminists you're talking about don't actually want equal opportunities between men and women, they're usually just lazy unattractive girls who all want a rich guy with a six pack to be desperately in love with them.
DeleteI don't know what types of feminists you are hanging out with, but I know plenty of very attractive and successful feminists. Sure there are the lazy and fat ones like Lena Dunham. Usually these are the ones that are also man-haters. But stop for a sec and look at the other well-known feminists. Do you think Sheryl Sandberg is ugly and fat? What about Hilary Clinton? Emma Watson? Amal Clooney? Beyoncé? Laura Bates? Or just stop by your nearest Goldman Sachs office and take a look at the female bankers.
DeleteYou're spot on as usual Andrew. I can't wait for your book to come out.
ReplyDeleteNice post, Andrew! You cover a lot...without saying a lot :) Look forward to reading your book,
ReplyDelete"The problem is just that there is a lot of bad mixed in with the good. And although it might be easy to identify the posts that are flagrantly wrong, even the sharpest readers will have trouble distinguishing the truth in the grayer areas."
Delete+1
Thanks Emily
DeleteMen love to make generalizations about women and how rotten they are, and women love to make generalizations about men and how rotten they are. In my experience, there are just a lot of unkind, insecure, petty, superficial, materialistic, ungenerous, selfish people out there. Of both sexes. Just lots of crappy people out there. It's not restricted to one gender. It's your responsibility to do due diligence on a potential parter, give it the test of time and let the person reveal themselves. Frankly, most people are going to be weeded out.
ReplyDeleteMen who go for hot women without taking time to peer under the surface (this is many, many men) are shocked, shocked! when their marriage falls apart in 5 years ...
In reading the manosphere I received the strong impression that nearly every author was a man-child, only able to deal with interpersonal relationships on a very superficial level. I read somewhere that men are better than women at instantly sizing up chemistry, but women are better than men at instantly sizing up relationship potential. So Man-Child, just as you are rejecting women for their looks (perfectly valid, everyone should be with someone they are physically attracted to), women are rejecting you because they can tell they don't, and won't, respect you. That's your fault, not theirs. And respect is a necessary part of a solid relationship, and necessary for a woman to be physically attracted to a man.
I need your help. Right. Now. Like ASAP. I just got in from a date with a guy. It was happy hour drinks. He asked if I wanted a third. I said no, respected my boundaries, was home by 8:30. He asked if I got home okay. He texted, did I have fun? He said he looked forward to the next time. What do I do now? I feel we are relative equals, attractiveness-wise. How do I keep him?
ReplyDeleteYou wait to see if he calls you again and try not to get your hopes up too much until you have stronger signs of his genuine interest.
DeleteOne word of advice : RELAX !
DeleteDon't start pinning all your relationship hopes and dreams on this one guy. In modern dating, people come and go all the time. Accept that and the fact that this guy might be nothing more than a one date wonder. Men say all sorts of things in text messages which literally mean squat. See if he arranges for a second date. If not, just move on to the next one. If yes, then take it from there.
Hi Andrew, from what you explain you must be a pretty good looking guy that women feel naturally attracted to. So I'm not surprised of the way you think about the manosphere. I am not particularly bad with women and luckily had a few ones chase me without me doing anything in particular, I guess I'm slightly above average in looks. But I've also had some terrible experiences with women that would have been mitigated greatly had I been not brainwashed by society about the nature of women. I think blogs like The Rational Male, do an amazing job at unveiling the realities of male-female interactions. To me, the manosphere is a great place to instill self improvement in general in life, as long as one is smart enough to filter out the hatred towards women that some people distill in those blogs.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree but I think the most important sentence (especially for women delving into the Manosphere) is your last one.
DeleteVery insightful. Attractive men (and women) can afford to be more objective and magnanimous toward others less fortunately endowed than they are. They simply can't comprehend the kind of life of rejection and deprivation that others endure. Until they themselves suffer the same fate.
DeleteNote that a lot of men vent on manosphere sites as this seems to be the only outlet where they are allowed to do so. When women vent or whinge, it is newsworthy commentary on major news sites, and a call to arms by political and social powers that be. Men do not have the same luxury.
The manopshere is very addicting but I got turned off by it because I posted a question on reddit and a commenter decided to make tons of assumption about me and through insults because I was a woman. Majority of commenters answered the question and was respectful about it but it's hard drain out the terrible things said in order to gain the useful information about the opposite sex.
ReplyDeleteDepends on how you frame your question. Many female writers to men's blogs tend to write in a way that appears to seek validation and attention. Also, as I mentioned in a post above, many men go to those sites to vent or rant, as there are not a lot of socially acceptable outlets where they are allowed to do so. Any attempts to restrain them or shame them for doing so is naturally going to be met with even more hostility. Remember that many men say things anonymously on these sites normally DO NOT behave in an obnoxious manner in real life as they rantings might suggest.
DeleteAndrew, thank you for this post and this blog. Your perspective and insights are refreshing because they ring true and, while not sugarcoated, are also not intentionally/overly harsh. I am grateful for whatever it was that inspired you to start this blog, which has helped so many misguided women like myself, as well as whatever goodness of heart/compassion/ambition that drives you to continue. You have acted as a faithful and honest brother to all of your readers, and it is pretty incredible to consider the lifelong impact you will have on so many of us. I've been reading for years but this is my first comment - after reading the post and contemplating all the hate and unhelpful stuff filling the interwebs, I am so grateful for this bright spot of truth and honesty. Thanks.
ReplyDeletePS - I love that we don't know much about you - the fact that you remain somewhat anonymous (especially with the book) just gives me so much more respect because I don't know if I would see you in quite the same way if this was your main "thing." I don't know if that makes sense but wanted to say it anyway.
Interesting point about the anonymity being a positive thing. I hadn't thought about it that way before but I can see what you mean.
Delete"Yes, it is partially true that society has lost sight of what these guys call "red pill" truths; I am not denying that. But the very fact that they use metaphors from The Matrix should hint at the fact that many of them have issues with attracting women;"
ReplyDeletehaha, this is a good one
I think that these are some good points about men projecting their shortcomings onto women, but having been abroad there really is a difference in the way that women behave outside the Anglo-american sphere of influence. Moreover, I have heard on more than one occasion from my elders about the differences in behavior that have developed in women over the last few decades. The increasing prevalence of obesity is one that is not only definitively proven, but it also affects both men and women. This then brings me back to the original subject. I think the male-shortcoming-projection angle rings true, but there really are deficits in female behavior, some of them more easily discerned than others.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, it's very much the "locus of control" controversy, which usually ends up getting applied to matters of financial achievement. Are we solely responsible for our station in life, or do forces beyond our control factor in? The truth is somewhere in between. I think, as the manosphere matures, it is developing the discernment to navigate the gray area of modern relationships, telling men "Yes, modern women have been taught to harbor a series of horrible attitudes toward men and masculinity, however, that does not absolve you of your responsibility as a man to develop your body, your mind, your career, your personality, and your character."
I definitely agree that women in the Anglo-american sphere are different. I have plenty of experience traveling, living, and dating outside the US. But what people seem to misunderstand is that no sex changes without the impetus or acceptance of the opposite sex. It isn't an exaggeration to say that women in the US (or other English-derived countries) are the way they are because of men in the US. And vice-versa. The sexes are in a constant push-pull with each other; neither sex does anything on its own. Feminism was just as much a creation of Western men as Western women. This idea that we can blame women as a whole for anything without also implicating ourselves as men is absurd.
DeleteI have noticed (and granted, it is from my somewhat peripheral perspective) that some writers in The Manosphere are maturing in their views, as you say. But they also seem to be moving away from the core in the process of doing so. Meanwhile, the core seems to be hardening on its more extreme views. This is the natural progression of any movement, and if you tend to identify with those who are maturing, I suspect you too will ultimately end up outside the "sphere."
(Part 1/2)
DeleteYou're bringing up a highly salient point here, and I believe the understanding and acceptance of that point is absolutely crucial to the next evolution of the manosphere.
In its earliest form, much of the manosphere was essentially an online coalescence of disaffected men, sharing their experiences and well, just venting their anger. Now, while being able to vent one's emotions feels wonderfully cathartic, it does nothing in the way of providing a tangible, functional solution to the problems one is suffering. Taken to its extreme, venting anger becomes an ultimately counterproductive endeavor, as continued focus on past misdeeds leads to one's energies becoming increasingly devoted to a feedback loop of bitterness and resentment. For a while, it seemed that this was all the manosphere would ever amount to - a stillborn pit of anger. Yet, somehow, something productive did emerge from this emotional dumping ground. As men are disposed to do, the denizens of the manosphere began to question and analyze what led them there. Men started to compare notes and form theories, first using anecdotal evidence and soon moving on to hard population statistics and the latest in neurological and psychological research to confirm them. Gradually, patterns in both male and female behavior began to emerge, and eventually these patterns were deconstructed and reassembled into much of what now constitutes manosphere canon. That expanding body of ideas has led to a sort of cultural renaissance in masculinity, as well as an increasing segment of men (and yes, women as well) who are no longer bewildered by the opposite sex.
However, as the manosphere started to sort the aforementioned patterns out, a series of contradictions began to emerge, many of which it is grappling with to this very day. Chief among these is a sort of agency problem, by which men can see that they, as a gender have had clear and often overwhelming advantages in a variety of spheres and aptitudes since time immemorial, yet here they are, helplessly pulverized beneath the gleaming pink pestle of "feminist oppression". This glaring contradiction was ignored by some, but many in the 'sphere took great pains to examine it, leading to manifold conclusions that all hold one thread in common. Precisely as you have said, feminism was indeed just as much a creation of western men as western women. If anything, it is becoming increasingly apparent that men may very well hold the lion's share of the blame in this matter. In retrospect, the utterly absurd idea of solitary female blame should have evaporated quickly, yet I believe it held on for so long due to the pain of men to realizing that this was all wrought with definite and consistent male complicity and assistance.
(Part 2/2)
DeleteThat complicity and assistance has sprung forth from the millions of actions men have taken on its behalf, benign and malign, consciously and unconsciously, over the past century.
The wealthy industrialist dumping huge grants into women's studies programs and not knowing or caring one whit what was being taught in them. The doting father trying just a little too hard to raise his daughter's self-esteem. Edward Bernays and his clever manipulation of suffragettes. The abusive, heavy-handed, scumbag who gave his stepdaughter a hundred reasons to never trust men again. Ronnie Reagan enthusiastically signing no-fault divorce into law. The sitcom writer more than happy to make a quick buck off writing a dopey, helpless, hopeless dad character. The CIA funneling cash into Ms. Magazine (if that actually happened). The heartbreaking cad who could never settle down. The zealous judge, happily and carelessly separating loving dads from their kids. The dorky white knight willing to throw any man (sometimes including himself) under the bus just to get a little attention from the ladies.
The manosphere, in my opinion, is about to swallow the biggest red pill of them all:
Feminism is a demon ultimately conjured up by the cowardice, laziness, malice, and ignorance of men.
Rather than attacking the symptom of the problem (the popularity of feminism and individual feminists themselves), men are increasingly realizing that the only way out is to:
1. Work together in support of each other.
2. No longer ignore what goes on in women's minds and lives, but make an effort to understand it and factor that knowledge into their relationships and decisions.
3. Retake control of their lives, by self-improvement.
4. Retake their rightful place in society by actively participating in it, and standing up for their interests.
In other words, men are beginning to grasp the true nature of the responsibility they have.
I don't know where I will end up in relation to the 'sphere, or what will become of the 'sphere itself, but I do understand that the end of feminism will only come when enough men develop a clear understanding of what created it in the first place.
I basically agree with all of that. You seem to have a better view of the trees, while I see mostly the forest (not that you are missing the forest, but I could never rattle off a list of examples like you did). Anyway I think we are more or less on the same page.
DeleteI do believe that The Manosphere (or, at least, the men writing in it at the moment, whether they remain in or out) is a leading indicator for how men will begin to think in the coming decades. I also think you are right that "the biggest red pill of all" is around the corner. It is almost inevitable. I mean it isn't that difficult to see once you connect the dots.
I also think this reinforces the main point of the post, which is that women should be very careful about what they read there. Resentment against women aside, things are dynamic. Ideas are being tried, tested, and changing. What you are reading aren't time-proven truths, they are theories built upon theories. And while there might be gems among them, there is a lot of bullshit too.
As I said, it is a minefield.
@Andrew
DeleteI haven't been here for a while but since I'm a frequent visitor and commenter at ROK, I will leave my two-cents.
The manosphere is a place for men. To debate, to question, to rant and spout, to dig beneath the surface, to re-open badly healed old wounds of insecurity, fear, pain and anxiety so they are properly dealt with and heal properly. Women have their socially approved outlets for emotions; men not as much, and that is why male only space is needed. There is a shortage of such places out there. So in that respect, thank God for the net. Lol
Ladies - ask yourselves this: what makes a man, a MAN? How is it supposed to happen? Think carefully since you have the most sacred duty, privilege and blessing in motherhood.
Any/ all generalizations are 'wrong'. Most men know this. Simultaneously, these generalizations cannot just be ignored - there is too much truth in them.
Women that look in the manosphere for answers to their woes in relationships with men and seek empathy are, to put it succintly, barking up the wrong tree.
They would be better served to ignore any, *even yours*, external advice and simply trust / respect 100% in their man (when in a relationship) or their father/male siblings (when single) plus another 100% (for good measure) to THEIR OWN intuition / gut instincts.
@Digra: interesting to hear you say that. I agree that male spaces are needed, and I think that if bloggers open their spaces to women and invite them to join the discourse, then men need to understand how that'll impact their blogs. Roosh had some great commentary on why male spaces are necessary. If I find the link I;ll drop it here. Also, do you have any thoughts on neomasculinity; the upgrade from red pill? Hopefully it'll refine some of the bad elements, or at least make distinguishable bad from good aspects of the manosphere.
DeleteUnrelated. I recall your interesting commentary in the past. I would appreciate some advice, and from anyone. Have you ever been in a relationship with someone, but wondered (more like realize) that you were meant to be with someone else? It's kind of complicated, but he and a relationship with him is something I'd fight for, but I'm only gonna do that if he wants me to. I want him to want me to, but I don't know how to find out. It's not one of those "if a guy wants you he'll pursue you things"; slightly complicated because I don't think he knows how I feel, and also because of our relationship statuses (no, not married). Any advice? Should I say something or try to bring up the topic?
I have no interest in labels. They mean very little unless it comes with positive action.
DeleteMost of you say the Sphere has a negative view overall and I can't argue with that... however people may be at different stages of their self-development / discovery - or maybe you haven't seen men speak with complete honesty about whatever issues they face. We deal with realism, even though it may be ugly, because reality is what can be acted upon.
Personally, considering I do read ROK's posts daily, I do a lot of filtering and look out for what applies to me and my experiences. Others may differ but it isn't my job to change someone's opinion. Since I started reading, some small changes have happened for the better, both in my life in general and my interactions with women.
Interesting points Digra.
DeleteIt's important too to know whether someone who claims to be self-improving really is, or is it just ditca.
I know someone (a guy) who had an entire group of Guys point out BPD behavior in a psycho woman to him. Rather than learn from the wisdom of those people he thinks it's a good decision to be in a relationship with her. She rationalizes her psychotic behavior to mean that she's defending him and fighting for him. With those types of MENTAL ILLNESSES, I feel sorry for people who can't find the tools to escape, make good decisions, or worse can't distinguish self-destructive behavior from self-improvement.
Mental illness is serious business.
Thanks for that affirming post Andrew.
ReplyDeleteLike you, Meggrz and Starlight, I was looking for answers and found gems of truth in the sphere, but everything has its season and it's time to move forward with the what we've learned. My daughter and I have a much better understanding of men their needs and what drives and motivates them. Because of the insights gained in the sphere I have set aside my feminist ideas and have gained a new respect for men that I never had before and a deep appreciation of the differences between the sexes. I no longer victimize or pedestalize women or fear men. The biggest surprise is that I now understand my own gender better than I ever have in my life!
Most importantly what I have learned from the sphere is that there is an unique power in femininity that feminist have denied as being real and effective. When faced with the task feminist leaders chose wrongly and selfishly and took the easy route' throwing out femininity instead of using the means and adjusting the strategy that had empowered and served women for millennium. It was nothing less then "stealing the playbook," from men. Think like a man, act like a man and then you'll be equal to men.
Not that there are never exceptions, but the majority of the time thinking and acting like a man doesn't make women happy like men because it goes against our unique natures. The undeniable truth is simple; we are not men.
Thank you again for sharing your wisdom I pass it on to as many young women who I find will listen.
Practicallyperfect
Hi Practicallyperfect,
DeleteGood to see you around here! I liked this bit in particular: "I have set aside my feminist ideas and have gained a new respect for men that I never had before and a deep appreciation of the differences between the sexes. [...] Most importantly what I have learned from the sphere is that there is an unique power in femininity that feminist have denied as being real and effective."
We sometimes tend to underestimate the worth of our femininity - it's nice to know how much men actually value this trait of ours. :)
Reading men's blogs is a start, but living in their shoes brings it to a different level altogether. Working like to dog to support others, going to war/battle and putting your lives and body on the line. Constantly being on alert to dangers and knowing you have to fight it off with absolutely no one is going to come to your aid. Knowing full well that you and you alone are responsible for not only yourself, but your children and extended family. Depending on yourself and any allies with absolutely no recourse to any form of external assistance. Making life and death decisions quickly and decisively knowing full well the full weight of consequences are going to rest on your shoulders, and yours alone. I have lived that and I can tell you, it is NOT great at all. It takes a big big toll on your mind and your body and I am amazed that more men haven't fallen apart physically and mentally than they have.
DeletePracticallyperfect, Starlight - I can see how *some* women struggle with being feminine, especially when balancing being an achiever in academic/work settings that involve being competitive. That said, I also sympathize w men who have to navigate the dating world and are confronted by women with disrespectful, unkind, psycho bitch, or demeaning attitudes towards men.
DeleteThe Way of the Superior Man is a book someone mentioned to me a while back, and I think it might have been discussed it here previously. Although there are parts of the book I can’t relate to and all of it is not my cup of tea, it’s a good read for a woman who wants to be in a relationship w a masculine man and who understands the importance of sexual attraction. (Probably not appropriate for your daughter, PP.)
Hey, Emily, thanks for suggesting "The Way of the Superior Man". Never heard of it before.
DeleteIn regards to your statement about "men navigating the dating world", I can confidently state that some women have sky-rocketing expectations of how "prince charming aka the one" and their relationship with him should be like and, therefore, dismiss a chance with any decent bloke simply due to not meeting stringent requirements. Basically they seem to be awaiting a hollywood-esque romantic tale.
Starlight-you're right and I agree w. how women act on their skyrocketing expectations. The manosphere is good in that it sheds light on a lot of behaviors that are incompatible with healthy and successful relationships. Sometimes I wonder how much or what part of history the manosphere is writing; in a hundred years will these "gender" relation type blogs be viewed as pioneers of change that future generations view as instructive (as we probably do Plato, Aristotle, etc.) or an unheard of blip on the radar.
DeleteUh, so I came across this on Animus Empire, which you suggested is a good blog: http://animusempire.com/four-more-myths-about-girls/#more-9766
ReplyDeleteDo you believe these things? Because I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing this as accurate -- "no" absolutely means "no" in the context of sex and potentially rape (and im concerned by this guy suggesting that "you're too pussy to rape her"), I'm a feminist and feminine at the same time because I think feminism means having the freedom to be who you genuinely are, I'm committed to my faith, and I feel like following my morals is very important. I can't be the only girl who thinks these things. What gives?
No, you are not the only one. I think being feminst and feminine is a good combination. I feel the same.
DeleteAlthough I think that sometimes feminism seems a bit convenient to me, in Andrews words, some feminists also might "hold their world-view because it conveniently puts them back into the place of power they feel so incapable of occupying" .
I think the emphasis should be on the word convenient here though.That's really the only beef I have with feminism, when it gets too much into black and white thinking. Otherwise I find it totally anachronistic and also weird and shocking to totally slam feminsm as a whole.
Threfore I find it hard to even take he Monosphere stuff remotely seriouly to be honest,
Men and women both have to push for their interests, negotiate their wants and desires. Feminism has made it taboo for men to express their side (both what they want and don't want is decried as sexism), but there are countless examples worldwide of what happens when it's the other way round and only men get to set the standards. Andrew said it IIRC, men ideally want women with sexual experience who have had fewer sex partners than the average. In less sexualized cultures this translates to 'women should be more modest than the average'. Obviously, women as a group can by definition not meet this ideal. Ask a sexist from Pakistan and he'll tell you most women are bad. Instead of caving in continuously until the goalposts are shifted to where leaving the house by yourself is immodest, women have to push back until an agreement is made. Same thing the other way round, feminism isn't bad on principle, but the mainstream has to realize one side's POV is as important as the other's.
DeleteI avoid manosphere blogs because
Delete1. Violence against women is promoted
2. Strong racist sentiments promoted. Roosh in an interview on A Voice for Men: “That said, I have noticed that black men tend to be more detached to the manosphere because of the presence of pro-white sentiments that they see as anti-black or even racist. Many manopshere bloggers are sympathetic to white nationalist causes and sometimes make openly hostile sentiments towards minorities, especially when it comes to inter-racial relationships involving white women.” http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/game/bang-the-definitive-interview-with-rooshv-part-one/
3. Anti-semitism towards certain religious groups
4. Extreme paranoia and stalking-like obsession with other bloggers such as Susan Walsh
5. Bloggers who criticize women for being fat are themselves obese and unattractive; hypocritical
6. Attachment to a “woe is me” victim-mentality
Do women find these qualities attractive?
Thank you for your honesty. I've been actively reading sites and blogs in the manosphere for about 8 months now, including TRP subreddit and while Ive noticed that most men there want to improve themselves, they are willing to scapegoat women for everything.
ReplyDeleteWe may actually have some true misogynists in the multitude of men who are very bitter and angry - perhaps justifiably so - after bad divorces, relationships, ect. I hate to even use that word considering how much feminists apply to every slight criticism of anything involving women, but I have seen it.
While feminism - specifically the 3rd and now this 4th wave - have done alot of harm to men and confused gender relations, there has to be more to one's identity then TRP and disliking feminism. I revile feminism, but there's much more to life and self-improvement then that.
I've learned that no how valid my excuses may actually be, it won't get any better if I don't take action. Sometimes the manosphere is a like a bottle of smooth self-esteem. "It's not your fault, it's their fault!" Well, even if it is, it won't improve your luck with women.
I will give alot of credit to the manosphere. I finally decided to take action and I've gotten laid by 7 different girls starting last march. Something the manosphere didn't tell me is that hookups and even friends with benefits leave you feeling unfulfilled.
There must be more - or at least I hope there is.
Great blog, thank you.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with this. Nothing comes out of manosphere blogs but just hate. I used to read plenty of manosphere blogs but then I stopped. Its not because something is wrong with me or the blog, but it just brought so much hate. If a woman does not initially find my physically attractive, awkard, ugly or what not, than that's her problem. Its best to just move along and seek out a humble woman.
ReplyDeleteI will say that I think Art of Manliness is one of the truly good ones (www.artofmanliness.com). But maybe that's just because I'm a sucker for the kinds of guys who are that old-school, gentlemanly sort of masculine :)
ReplyDeleteI think it's hilarious that men on the manosphere complain about women, especially their exes. No one forces you to date or marry any woman, you chose it. You chose to date the problematic woman. You chose her because you desired superficially hot over character. You could have passed the drama queen by but you chose her. There are plenty of problematic women out there but there are also plenty of good women out there. You didn't choose one. Don't blame women, blame yourself.
ReplyDeleteWe all deserve exactly what we have.
You went to the college you went to because you did/didn't work hard in high school.
You have the job you do because you do/don't work hard to acquire the right skill set and risk-taking attitude.
You have the partner you do because you did/didn't work on yourself and you did/didn't judge potential partners based on character.
We are ourselves responsible for the states of our lives.
Just wanted to throw in that in the relatively small smattering of these blogs that I have read, I always get the impression that these men are not generally dating 'hot' women, or women who are super-desirable, or even making the decision of looks over substance- it seems like a lot of these guys just take whatever they can get from any woman and then when it turns out she's a piece of crap (just like him!) they get all bitter about women in general. I tend to get the impression that there is a lot of anger and hostility towards women because these guys somehow feel they are entitled to a beautiful, perfect woman so if they don't get it it much be because women are evil, right?
DeleteBut I have to say that some of the mano blogs do still some dirt truth on women and dating which I happen to agree with. My favorite mano blog is Tom leykis, I listen to him because he is comical too, but then again he isn't perfect himself he been through 4 divorces. These mano blogs just try to steer away guys from getting hurt which has been on the increase lately. I had a woman who I dated on and off again for a year tell me that she was not sexually attracted to me and mind you that she is fucking fat Latina. But again its whatever makes her happy and what's best for her and provides me no reason for any hate or or negativity. Just move on and dust myself off.
ReplyDeleteNice post, however it is very evident that you are censoring yourself due to to your female readership. Even though I haven't read your blog that much I can tell that although you are not a misogynist, it is clear that you do not believe women are worthy of everything that they think they deserve. I can almost guarantee that you are non-monogamous and don't really believe in marriage, but are more than likely a plate spinner. But hey, I'm not hating, I admire your hustle, keep it up Andrew.
ReplyDelete"it is clear that you do not believe women are worthy of everything that they think they deserve"
DeleteNot sure what you mean by that.
You're right that I'm not currently monogamous but I definitely do believe in marriage.
Well they are NOT worthy of everything they think they deserve. NO ONE is.
DeleteWe are only entitled to that which we unequivocally reciprocate in our relationships, and to be treated with good manners, respect and humility.
Name: Lola
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I am a woman, I sometimes read the manosphere - only to understand how some men think. I am a woman, and I know all the rules of game that men play.
The problem is that my girl game, is better than any male's game. If I want to fuck a guy, I will do it. No amount of 'negging'/insulting me playfully will make me sleep with a guy. If I want to, I will.
Further, I am not interested in beta men so the manosphere is helpful in helping me to define and then ignore beta men who are not manly, and have no use in my lie.
Some of the posts and things said in the manosphere are a bit silly and immature though. As a woman, I just don't think a guy asking out a girl, dating a girl and sleeping with a girl is that difficult. There are lots of women who want boyfriends, guys to fuck or just the company of men. So, I just kind of wonder - how socially awkward, badly dressed, facially and height/weight challenged must the men in the 'Manosphere' be - if they complain so brazenly about women/not getting girls.
Men in the manosphere are not necessarily high calibre. High calibre men will be out there living the dream already, running businesses, coming home to their beautiful wives and girlfriends, sitting at the table with their mothers drinking tea and eating biscuits, or going to church with their grandma one Sunday....
As an attractive (definitely 9/10/11 out of 10) woman, I would say I pretty much ignore the manosphere. As I a prefer to be in more feminine spaces. When I do read Manosphere articles, I mostly feel a sense of pity. My main concern is making sure I look beautiful at all times, and ultimately dating and marrying a rich guy. If not that, then at least getting pregnant with a rich guy and receiving some sort of support from him ;-)
i share your sentiments :)
Deletewhen i first came across the manosphere i was alarmed that men seem to have such misogynist attitudes toward women. but as i read more into it i realised that more often than not, men in the manosphere are simply losers, especially roosh. they brag about sleeping with young and beautiful women, but the problem is that is, girls are usually not as shrewd when they are younger.
men of truly high calibre have more on their minds than just scoring with young and undiscerning girls - they are improving themselves and contributing to society, filled with positive energy, rather than bitter and negative.
I agree with you Lola - the guys on the manosphere act like it's such a great accomplishment to go out and sleep with drunk young girls - it's not! not to mention that women will hook up with men 'below their league' also.
DeleteWomen have an easy time getting laid. Read the post women get to play out of their league. A man will date/sleep with women below his league but marry in his league. He's just not that into you applies for all women just wanting an alpha male. If men were picky as women in who they sleep with, majority of the women would be virgins. Women have checklist from height to charisma to confidence to masculine. Majority of the women dont like weak men, boring men, feminine men, and won't sleep with them. Majority of the men dont like masculine women, boring women, low self esteem women BUT MEN WILL SLEEP WITH THEM. Men will have sex with women that neg them, most women won't. Men will have sex with women who uses the Rules book but women dont want men who use PUA. Men know it takes work to get laid. Women have it easy. After hooking up with men out of her league, she will wonder why she cant keep one. Reason she cant keep the alphas is bc she was boring to begin with n just used for sex
DeleteRace plays a huge factor also. Men dont care about race, religion as much as women do. Men will sleep with asian women, indian women, Muslim women. American women are not that open sleeping with asian men, indian men, Muslim men. Women have a checklist on who they have sex with n majority of the men dont. Gene Simmons n warren beatty slept with women who had moustaches. Read the biography. A rich guy won't mind having sex with an average girl who is a cashier at Burger King but a rich women won't sleep with an average guy who is a cashier at Burger King. Exceptions are rare but the rule is clear
DeleteAgree with Sophie. Girls (particularly sluts and insecure, drunk, young girls) will hook up with men below their league or men they would never date. Sometimes women will just use the man for sex (sluts), but would never date him because of his personality (he cheats, he's a narcissist, or a fuckboy). Other times, the girl is so insecure and inexperienced that she doesn't know her worth. She will hook up with a guy below her league because she doesn't know that she can do better (a few years or months later, with a bit more experience, she realizes that she gets hit on by hotter men and that young men may really like her but have no balls to make a move). Other times, she'll simply be too drunk to even know what she's doing.
DeleteExactly my point, anon 8:12. I wonder how many men have fooled themselves into thinking that just cause a woman slept with them it automatically means she's super attracted to them and wants them to put a ring on their finger, lol. The guys on the manosphere tell us women that we're the ones who are deluded...haha...
DeleteSophie H
They're mostly bitter bastards trying to feel better about their own shortcomings. You don't really need to know much about human psychology to work that one out, but this post was engaging and well written as always. :)
ReplyDeleteAndrew,how can you believe in marriage if you slept with so many women? Marriage becomes just a piece of paper.
ReplyDeleteMarriage is not a piece of paper; marriage is a promise. I don't see how sleeping around makes someone incapable of keeping a promise.
DeleteExcept that it only applies to men. They can sleep around pretty much just as much they want to, and not many women will deem them less worthy because of it. The same doesn't work the other way around, obviously.
DeleteI've just read some interesting comments on one of Roosh's blogs on how hooking up and soon later having sex with guys they were barely familiar with dehumanizes women, how they "hold no human value" - naturally written by men who made fucking strangers their very own way of living. I mean, what is their value? What do they offer? I never understood the difference between being promiscuous as a man, or a woman. Sure, you might say that men have to try hard in order to bed women swiftly, that they have higher sex drives and all the other crap, but in the end, it just doesn't really add up. I can't see how they would make for a better LTR material, than the women they have ONSs with, and whom they covertly (well, apparently not covertly at all) disdain. Stop pedestalizing the pussy, we, humans, men or women, are still merely fucking animals, want it or not. I thought this is what red pill was all about? #kthxbye
Disclaimer: that is in no way to offend people whose views are actually a little bit more consistent, unlike the comments of people which I had an unmistakable pleasure of reading.
Clearly, Andrew, you've got a lot to learn. Everything you do affects you affects your future. You should know this, coming from a Catholic background. There is no free lunch. If you don't keep commitments now, you won't keep them later. These are spiritual principles - being bad or good is not just a switch you turn on or off as needed. I'll look forward to your posts in thirty years. You'll be changing your tune - take it to the bank.
DeleteSo true... I wanna see where Andrew is in 30 years.
DeleteIt's hard to love people when you think of them as products in a marketplace.
I still appreciate that you put your opinions out there, though. Keep it up.
Very Interesting post Andrew but I would disagree that most men in the manosphere are "bad with women". Is really hard to effectively gauge how good or bad the men of the "manosphere" are with women because in one side you have sites such as A voice for men, with men and women that likely are not too interested in the "game" of women, and then you have sites like rooshv forum, naughtynomad, even heartiste with guys that have insane social intelligence and "game".
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be a believer just take a look:
http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-11951-page-98.html
Anyways I think like everything, nothing is ever black and white. Regardless of a lot of the whining that may take away from the manosphere (and I agree with you on this point) what have I observed the manosphere is a men's playground with all sorts of guys (from the geek engineer, to the philosopher, to the millionaire) giving their blunt take on the world.
I am inclined to argue here (because I don't think that most men in the Manosphere are good with women), but your point is well taken anyway; the blanket statement that all Manosphere authors are all bad with women isn't completely accurate. It also isn't critical to the point of the post, but it needs correction, so I've added this line to the 5th paragraph: "At least, it is written by men who have a history of being bad with women." I think that more accurately captures what I am getting at anyway.
DeleteFor the record I think there is a huge difference between being able to get laid and being "good with women," but that is a topic for a separate discussion.
we don't hate women. it's like i wrote in my blog, i wouldn't spend so much time trying to understand & learn about something i hate. yes, most of us did not have the experiences we wanted. and i will admit that there is a great deal of Schadenfreude in the manosphere. every day i laugh whenever some woman laments the lack of "good men" but don't think for a minute that red pill sites hate women.
ReplyDelete"I am not saying that all men in The Manosphere hate women. I am not even saying that any one of its writers hates women. But I am saying that The Manosphere is built on the tiny feelings of satisfaction that its thousands of readers – many of whom are normal guys who have a fairly healthy relationships with women – feel every time they can laugh or take a jab at what has caused them pain at some point in their past: women."
Deletehttp://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/1x1284/if_any_of_you_hens_find_trp_to_be_a_little_too/
DeleteThis is insightful. To be honest, I have enjoyed parts of your blog, but much of it has bothered me because it seems that you expect women to live their lives almost solely to please men. I am not sure if this is true or not (and if so I really can't respect you), but I'm glad to see that you at least realize it is the responsibility of men to make themselves attractive if they want a mate, too. One thing is for sure: nobody is obligated to date someone they are not attracted to. Certain types of MRAs and rad-fems alike seem to think that the opposite gender is BAD for not wanting to date them, and this is wrong on so many levels. Furthermore, they unfairly vilify members of their own gender who are successful with the opposite sex by calling them things like "douchebags" and "skinny bitches." I understand it's an easy trap to fall into, but causes nothing but bitterness.
ReplyDeleteWhen you have many sexual partners you lose the ability to love. Your feelings become shallower and shallower. If you were capable of love you would marry ages ago, especially if you were/are dating many women. Also, these days there is no point to marry because majority of women became sexually available.
ReplyDelete1. define "feelings become shallower". you can speak for yourself if that's how it is but dont assume it for other people.
Delete2. have you considered that besides this question of whether andrew was "capable of love", people put off marriage for many reasons? for instance to first complete their education or become more financially stable?
3. your last statement implies you equate marriage with sexual availability.
have you really given this topic enough though to criticize andrew?
I am female, I do follow Roosh blog and I enjoy it! I mostly feel empathy for him because he is trying hard to be an Alpha male, but he will forever lack the natural charisma required to be one.
ReplyDeleteBut he is great writer and I relate very much to his philosophy of life, and his efforts to live by his own standards.
Funnily enough, I consider your blog to be part of the Manosphere. It has the same tendency to instill fear in women’s heart, and make them believe they should do certain things by a certain age otherwise, they will 'miss the boat'. And that is not true. No one, ever misses the boat. Love comes at any time, any age. It is for everyone.
But trying to control women mind seems to be what men in the manosphere need to do to assert their control and relative superiority over women.
I do understand though, that you speak from the perspective of a young guy, and I expect your judgement to change overtime.
And I do enjoy reading you too. I just add a (large) pinch of salt :)
M
Like many women here I started reading men's blogs to gain better understanding of what made men 'tick' and how they wired, because guys in real life don't just tell you what nuances men have and how they really feel about women, dating etc...I read the big names regularly like Dalrock, ROK, Roosh, Red pill room. After about two years my interest waned hugely because I realized that it was not conducive to ME as a woman wanting to improve my femininity and success with men. Their main target demographic pertains to young, pretty insecure women who they can 'spin' (take advantage of) in order to compensate for their lack of female attention during their teens/twenties. I am young and pretty but have no interest in serving their agenda of being used or dumped as some sex trophy.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly there are some salient points there, as said in this post, many red pill men were enlightened by the movement after coming out of bad experiences with women. Some of them were too accommodating or too dependent on their first girlfriend and realized the hard way that people in this life will walk over you if you allow them to do so! The toxicity spreads soooo quickly when they band together to return hateful treatment towards women as a revenge method. Just look at the posts where guys are applauded for acting viciously towards a girl they just slept with, or throwing a hateful jab at an older aged woman. Perhaps that is their means of healing, but I hope they move past this stage of pain. I have come to agree with an above manosphere poster that these are men's spaces, and I'm only harming myself by lurking there. It's like a support group for female divorcees who had cheating husbands, of course they will rage against men in their hurt to reconcile their feelings...but why would a man with good and honest intentions to understand women even go there? As a woman going to these blogs, you think you can sympathize with them and reassure that you *aren't like those other bitches who hurt them but it won't work because...they are THERE to bond over the bitches who hurt them and don't want any female raining on their pitiful parade.
I have transitioned into reading femininity blogs, that to me is the real 'red pill' for women, hearing ancient truths that our media tries to deny for e.g. Most men at their heart want a pleasant and cooperative woman instead of a competitive highly strung one (at least outside of work). Such truths are difficult enough for the female ego absorb without the unfriendly atmosphere that permeates the mano blogs.
This blog is blunt and good, it doesn't seem to have an ulterior motive beyond encouraging women to understand what guys are like plain and simple. I like Matthew Hussey too because he encourages women to be open and friendly with men and proactive about their social life. Another hidden gem is "What women never hear" written by Sir Guy. Feedback from these sort of blogs are more informative for women wishing to improve their appeal in general and written by the positive and no nonsense type of men I wish to attract.
For everyone comparing themselves to Victoria's Secret models, and to Andrew.. it's great if you think those women are attractive, but I actually don't. They're too scrawny. Some of them have pretty faces, some don't (to me) but to others Victoria's Secret models are the ideal beauty. To me, I'm sorry they aren't that great. Maybe 10 years ago, when Laetitia Casta was one of their models, I'd agree, but now... I'm sorry but some of those women have bodies of little scrawny boys. They arch their backs so much just to get any curve.. I know.. I work with models too.. and they're really scrawny and I always have to tell them to suck in their tummies and arch their backs so that it looks like they have curves. I have to pick the scrawny girls cus everything fits them really easy, and they look better on camera, especially for fashion, but I also lose the feminine curves so I'm always yelling "suck in that tummy, stick out those buns" LOL.
ReplyDeleteI'm an attractive girl, I'm not super scrawny but I'm skinny. But I have natural curves and I keep toned. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I can since none of you know me (LOL), but I consider myself more attractive than any of the models I have worked with. My face is prettier and I prefer my body over theirs. I like my abs, I like my buns. So if you to you, the ideal female is a Victoria's Secret model, that's great... I disagree, I don't have to agree. I also don't agree that Kim Kardashian's body is ideal.. she's overweight for her height and those breasts look out of control and too large for her short stature. But other women look at her and Beyonce and use them to accept their bodies, and that's fine for them too, I don't care. I don't care what other people prefer.
My point is, everyone should just be the best they can be and just accept what other people like. If Andrew can think VS models are ideal, someone else can think it's okay to be obese even though there are lots of health issues associated with that, someone else can believe Kim Kardashian and Beyonce and have great bodies, and I can prefer my toned body - to eat healthy (not starve myself) and work out.
Totally agree that Kim Kardashian is overweight, especially these days... and yeah VS models don't necessarily have the perfect body. Andrew is probably thinking of a few like Alessandra Ambrosio, Adriana Lima, Candice Swanepoel. Because a good number of the Victoria's Secret models like Behati Prinsloo, Anja Rubik, and Magdalena Frackowiack are way too thin - for most men's taste.
Delete' Your last statement implies you equate marriage with sexual availability'.
ReplyDeleteI do think so, in a sense. I know that women become attached to men in general, especially if they slept with a man. Many women are dumped by men/boyfriends. Men have upper hand. Once a man has slept with a woman, he 'tasted' her, so to speak. I know a few examples when women had a long-term relationship with their boyfriends/partners and they wanted they partners to propose, but they were not proposing. It was only when they left their partners, then their men came back and proposed. Thus, women feel that they have to 'blackmail' or to persuade somebody to marry them. Men want sex and that is all they want. I am married, but if I was single again, I do not know how I would behave. I definitely would not want somebody to use me for a while and then to dump me.
andrew could you do a post on improving personality??? please please :)
ReplyDeleteYes, I will. It's long overdue. But it's not going to say what you think it will.
DeleteAll you need to know:
DeleteBe kind. Always. no gossiping, no selfishness, be kind to strangers even on minor things and even when you've had a bad day. be kind to family and relatives even/especially when they get on your nerves. This doesn't mean be a doormat. It means treat others kindly.
Be confident. Always. Love yourself, work hard to be the best you and be proud of your efforts and not the things you own or the vacations you take or the degrees you have. that's not confidence, that's insecurity.
In my experience 95% of people are not these two things. There are so few men like this boy do the few ones that are stand out.
Go watch the movie Groundhog Day. I lived Phil's life and understand why he got to the place he did. Though I didn't start out like the jerk he was. What happens to him because he turned so unselfishly kind is not unrealistic at all. People crave kindness because it's so rare.
Most relationships and marriages fall apart just because people can't do #1.
The funny thing is, when you make it a habit to practice kindness, it feels really really good, and it help you with #2, really being centered on who you are and loving yourself.
I forgot one,
Delete#3 - be happy, have a positive outlook on life. no one wants to be around a negative, complaining, petty, bitter person. happiness, not boisterousness, but a quiet all-pervading positive out look on life is magnetic. A person like this is magnetic.
Kind.
Confident.
Happy.
Justfourguys.com has a nice post about Girl Game (which I LOVE) that discusses personality. Han Solo over there outlined 5 elements to Girl Game: pretty, personality, not picky, pick well, promote yourself. I also believe Emily L, frequent-turned-not-so-frequent commenter here also wrote a great (feminine and inspiring to me) piece on girl game too that followed these 5 P’s. Anywayz, I’d be curious to see what you can add to personality, Andrew. If anything. I look forward to reading it!!! ;-)
DeleteBelow is the “personality” excerpt from http://www.justfourguys.com/girl-game-is-simple-yet-so-hard/
2) Personality
[Videos omitted].
And that, right there, is golden advice for women. Don’t be a gold-digging whore! Men don’t just want to be a wallet…so if you’re such a money-grubbing, materialistic, ungrateful and entitled little bitch then get the fuck out of my life (I’m referring to the women he references in his comedy act, not the wonderful female readers here ).
Adapting Bill Burr’s phrase to another epidemic that has infested the land:
We’re facing an epidemic of snark-spitting bores. That’s right. Women think that by being snarky and bitchy that they’re actually being charming!!! WTF? Men don’t want some snark bitch at their side, nagging and cutting and biting. And they don’t want a vapid woman that bores them to death.
Be pleasant!
Be interesting!
For God’s sake, please!
Men want a woman who is kind and sweet and loving, that builds him up and inspires him. Cut the nagging already. Cut the demanding entitlement. That shit just makes a man want to curl up and die or run for the hills. It’s like too many women solipsistically think that an edgy, ballsy, doesn’t-take-shit kind of guy is attractive, and so they think that men want that too. And too many women buy into the men-are-privileged bullshit and think they have to bust his balls at every chance lest he yield to temptation and crack that ever-looming whip of privilege that every man is just dying to unleash.
Instead of cutting him down, build him up. One woman I was dating was an honest-to-goodness 9 (on a scale where sighting true 10’s is as common as Bigfoot). The first time we went out she looked so good that when I first laid eyes on her that night my gut did a holy-shit-she’s-hot clench up. But in later dates she nagged the shit out of me for trivial things that weren’t even an issue. I couldn’t stand it. I fled for the hills.
Learn to appreciate his humor and laugh at his jokes. Men fucking love it when women think they’re funny. Men love laid-back chicks that are just fucking fun to be around with and talk. Listen to him, laugh with him, learn of his dreams, share yours.
And have something interesting to talk about. Show interest in him and what he loves. One girl I dated was hot but boring as hell. I just couldn’t stand it. On the other hand, the women I’ve been most in love with were a combination of good looks, good personalities, and we had great conversation. They were interesting to talk with.
Bathe him in feminine light and warmth and energy. Don’t worry that this will open the door for you to be taken advantage of. If you picked well, he’ll love you all the more.
Praise him, compliment him, let him know sincere ways that he brightens your life.
Men need to be needed! Need him! And let him know.
The post above mine is gold. Here's a guy being snarky and bitchy, wondering why he has a hard time finding sweet, loving, warm women. Do you honestly think people can't tell your personality type? People with a positive outlook want the same in a partner, doubly so for the long term. On the other hand, the naivety of a sweet person can be quite grating for a cynic, which is why many grumps are happily married - to each other. A realistic self-assessment might do you some good.
DeleteI agree, I'm laughing at the post above yours too.
DeleteIT'S NOT THE WOMAN'S FAULT. IT'S YOUR FAULT. YOU PICKED BADLY.
There are plenty of awful people in the world. Don't pick one and then complain. Women don't exist simply to measure up to your standards of what you would like.
Keep it in your pants, get to know the woman a little, and pass her by if she's not interesting or kind or doesn't kiss your ass with complements enough. Pass her by. No ones forcing you to date anyone. It's your own fault if you weren't discerning enough or patient enough or smart enough and picked badly.
As I said in another post, you deserve to be with the person you are with. You picked them. Stoping blaming 'women.'
one more thought - a man evokes respect, and therefore compliments,easily and naturally from a good woman, when the man truly deserves it. so if you are not getting the compliments you want from your woman, then take a long hard look at yourself and fix yourself so that you are worthy of respect and compliments.
Hey! I recently started reading your posts. They're amazingly true. Thank you for sharing. Happy Norouz.
ReplyDeleteHey Andrew, this isn't directly related to the main topic of your post but I'm curious to get your two cents on it as it's something that has always confused me to no end - you made mention to Victoria Secret models as ideals of feminine beauty and I have no doubt many (most?) men and women alike would agree with you. However, this runs contrary to many men claiming that they prefer petite/shorter women (e.g. your post on "The Perfect Female Height"). So is their height one of those "in spite of" things? As a woman on the shorter side, I've always had difficulties believing men when they say they find shorter women more attractive when the mere existence of Victoria Secret models would suggest otherwise haha. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
ReplyDeleteThe whole fascination with Victoria's Secret models is in their heads. Most men don't even know who most of them are. I HIGHLY doubt that most men find Magdalena Frackowiack to be ideal. Most men prefer a shorter curvier body like Melanie Iglesias. Just from what I've observed ...
DeleteAnd the VS models are stunning because of their faces. Adriana Lima has a one of a kind type of beauty even if there are girls in men's magazines who have more perfect bodies.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. It seems like it's almost always a face that makes a person stunning, anyway (e.g. a person with Adriana Lima's face coupled with one of a variety of healthy body types would still be considered gorgeous.)
DeleteYes, it's a case of in spite of - though plenty of guys do like tall girls. And I agree with the two comments in reply to yours.
DeleteYou can't tell how tall a girl is in a catalog or even on the runway. I doubt most guys know how tall Adriana Lima is because there is no context. But if you could make two versions of her with the exact same proportions, exact same face, etc, except one is 6'2" and the other is 5'4", more guys would choose the 5'4" version.
DeleteAndrew, you mind telling us your number? I'm guessing it's somewhere 50-70?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/02/the-clooney-effect/386018/
ReplyDeletethought you might find this interesting
Andrew, your blog has lead me to have even lower self-esteem and more cognitive biases. And when I *thought* I had been rejected given that I had trusted your definition of rejection (guess what? turns out I hadn't been rejected at all!), I thought that the "rejection" was due to me not being good enough. This lead me to a depression, and I am now taking medication. The calculating, black and white way of viewing the world you profess (even though you in ONE post you sayto it only applies to *most* cases) is not only damaging, but also fallacious.
ReplyDeleteIt's not always the case that if you don't 'feel' good when a guy does or does not do X, it means that you are not good enough and that the best solution is to self-improve. Reality is more complex than that.
I think you should stress this more often because you often say that you'd rather have a confident 7 than an insecure 8, or something of the sort, yet this blog breeds insecurity.
Sounds to me like you have your own issues and are trying to blame someone else for them. Maybe, like many of these guys that populate the manoshpere, you need to get your head together and take responsibility for yourself.
DeleteAs far as I know, what I wrote proved that I am taking responsibility for myself. I know what my mistake was: believing your biased, narcissistic view of the world. I am also taking antidepressants, going to therapy, and unlearning all the fucked up shit I learned from you. I also said that your blog made the problem worse, not that it created it entirely. So I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you just need to learn how to take criticism, how about that?
DeleteGuys like you and the guys in the manosphere think they're so smart. They think that if they write mean things that hurt, then it hurts because it's the "harsh truth" that nobody wants to say. You are probably simply just as deluded as the rest of the population.
Would you ever give your future daughter the same advice you give us in this blog? That if a guy rejects her it's because he's out of her league and he's too good for her, and she's not good enough. That she should aspire to be a Victoria's Secret model, that guys don't care about her accomplishments or her intelligence, that if a guy doesn't approach her is because he doesn't like her enough. That she should just improve herself in order to be worthy of love.
If you do, then this shows how fucked up you are - no need to justify that. If you don't, then you have some explaining to do, cause there are real people with real hearts reading your blog posts, and some people, like me, make the mistake of taking your advice to heart. But maybe you don't care about morality, and so this comment is irrelevant to you.
Sounds like you needed to grow up, and now you are starting to. Because it's self-evident that you shouldn't just blindly believe everything you read on some website. But apparently you did.
DeleteIt's not Andrew's responsibility to cushion everything he writes or to make sure his advice applies to every single person in every situation. This is how he sees the world and it's his honest opinion. He's putting his insights out there for everyone to read and do with what they will. He's not god. There's no guarantee that everything he says is 100% true. Why would you even think that?
Come on now.
Hey, Andrew, Evan Marc Katz has praised this post of yours in a recent blog entry of his. Thought you might want to know. :)
ReplyDeleteDude, I have been looking at this blog for a minute. The reason why you have problems with women is that you TRY TOO HARD and you think too damn much. You are not a woman, stop thinking so damn much. Women are turned off by that shit. And who uses the word "game"? Dude you are 28 but that shit sounds like a high school sophomore who watches too much VH1. Wtf???i am 25 and don't say that shit. You say you can't get a 29 year old woman but there is no way a 29 year old woman want a dude who uses the word "game". You need to change that shit up. I am 25 and have been with the same woman for 3 years. My girl is 29, so I know what I am talking about. You will never get a woman to take you seriously if you still have the mindset of a college guy. Women do not want to fuc with a 28 year old who never grew up. I could give you a lot more advice, but you would need to step your shit up. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and improve yourself. If you grow up I bet there are a lot of women who would be willing to take a chance with you. Don't blame your age. 28 is not that old at all. You just need to act 28 and then more women will want you.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about? He never said he has a problem with women.
DeleteYeah, but he's not happily married either. Which is what a lot of women reading this blog are hoping to be.
DeleteLOL if all men spent as much time on understanding women as Andrew does, the world would be a better place for us all. In fact, I think Andrew is VERY mature and intelligent. I would've guessed his age was much higher, like 40+ or something.
DeleteWomen like me LOVE men who think. But you know, there are different types of men + women. We're not the same. Geeks, rockers, superficial people. Different people with different needs.
--Jen
I'm a thin, attractive feminist. And no, I'm not just saying that. I don't see what being a feminist has to do with one's looks. I know many feminine, sweet, and attractive feminists. Our feminism has nothing to do with our ability to attract guys. I'm not saying that's always the case for all feminists, but the whole "feminist = ugly" thing is really outdated. Maybe you just don't have a clear understanding of what feminism means.
ReplyDeleteChateau heartiste consistently posts racist and inflammatory things. Why recommend that trash.
ReplyDeleteGood thing I didn't
Deletelol
DeleteOne funny thing about Manosphere, and especially MGTOWs, is the whole big confirmation bias they just love to surround themselves with. They all consist of men with similar life experiences, letdowns, etc, thus narrowing, not broadening, their perspective (this doesn't relate to all of the topics they discuss, though).
ReplyDeleteTime and time again (on sites concerning men's issues) you will stumble upon men claiming that all (or many) women are sheep, and yet you don't see many men there that do think for themselves. They just devour the (seemingly correct at the time) knowledge without giving it much thought. Like: "Oh, he's one of the writers on the site, so he must be right (amirite?)" And I'm not saying it's just men's issues, most people function like that. Humans tend to consider people with similar thoughts, ideas to theirs own, smarter than others. Because *I* am smart.
Unrelatedly, another funny thing about people discussing online is the argument they use after someone doesn't agree with what they posted. Say, you've got a thread or a video saying that all women aren't capable of love (almost whatever topic fits here but I don't feel like working out more examples atm), which then causes an influx of women saying how it's not true, and simply defending themselves. You will hear then someone say: "Oh look, the content triggered unease, so it must be right!". <--- I just love this argument.
So, if it's so bang-on, does it mean that when feminazis/[insert some other extremist group here] say all men are rapists or w/e other bullshit they manage to come up with, men opposing and bemocking their wrong claims (thus creating an uproar) prove them right?
Your admiration for Roosh says everything one needs to know about you. And in case it is not clear, none of it is good.
ReplyDeleteYour inability to differentiate the good from the bad in someone says a whole lot more about you.
DeleteFor those of you who consider the manosphere to be too raw/immature/whatever, this might help you understand.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/1x1284/if_any_of_you_hens_find_trp_to_be_a_little_too/
Yes indeed..."manosphere" aside, the foundation is Red Pill truth. And the truth is that, for WHATEVER reason, men and women have not been taught (either in the sacred or secular realm) about the TRUE nature of the male/female dynamic...and through Evo-Psych, we learn that a lot of the TRUTH is unpleasant.
ReplyDeleteSo since the manosphere thought is not monolithic..ie..it's a microcosm of the world at large, you folks railing against it should learn nuance.
I'd say that the VAST majority of men there do just fine with women. If they are like me, they have NEVER had an issue attracting and securing the affections of women (good OR bad).
What I know has happened to many of them is that when the moment of truth came, they choose wrongly. That doesn't make them losers. Some may have ignored red flags, others may have been conned, and others may have just been lonely and decided that "ignorance is bliss". But you see, you prove a truth about what many in consider to be the wretchedness in women (those here throwing shade on the manosphere) is that you are wicked and lack empathy because you would NEVER blame a woman for anything she does that's foul.
You (we) are ALL evil and have unclean hearts and motives. So you (we) have to push out the darkness so that more light can come in, and hopefully you (we) will yoke up with someone who is doing the same - EARNESTLY.
Even if the manosphere didn't exist..the truths about women and men would remain the same. Men love idealistically and women love opportunistically, and hypergamy is REAL and doesn't care what any one thinks or feels.
Oh..and THIS is true..
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/1x1284/if_any_of_you_hens_find_trp_to_be_a_little_too/
The objective is for #5 to be de-facto. And the reasons why it's NOT de-facto are hardly unfounded.
A lot of men (EVEN men who are attractive, intelligent, have moral agency, and CAN get laid) remain at #2 for a while, and as long as they aren't advocating violence, then they are not misogynists. In fact, most of the time when people describe something as misogynist is utter shit.
Being anit-misandrist doesn't mean you hate women.
I believe that Christians who are swine eaters are ignorant of a very important aspect of the faith, but that doesn't mean I hate Christians. People are so daft.
I'm really tired of the "ugly feminist" punching bag. I'm gorgeous and so are my three little daughters, whose futures I care about. My concern with the wage gap and women's autonomy over their own bodies doesn't mean I'm a dumpy troll. Saying feminists are ugly is just a way to silence voices of women. It's really irritating and I expected more of you.
ReplyDeleteMRAs are a hate group. It is also time to quit trashing feminists as "fat and ugly," whatever that is. You are engaging in the same repelling ideas the MRAs are.
ReplyDeleteThese men are losers.
The more I read your posts, the more I love you. :D I don't agree completely, but I love how you think and how you try to see different sides of this. So few people do, these days. :)
ReplyDeleteWe need more men and women who can see both sides of our gender roles, and truly work for understanding each other - without blame, guilt or aggression.
--Jen
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